Jump to content

Primary: Sky Slate Blackcurrant Watermelon Strawberry Orange Banana Apple Emerald Chocolate Marble
Secondary: Sky Slate Blackcurrant Watermelon Strawberry Orange Banana Apple Emerald Chocolate Marble
Pattern: Blank Waves Squares Notes Sharp Wood Rockface Leather Honey Vertical Triangles
Photo

TYPE-MOON Discussions <<WARNING: SPOILERS>>

TYPE-MOON Carnival Phantasm Tsukihime Kara no Kyoukai FATE Melty Blood Mahou Tsukai no Yoru Nasuverse

  • Please log in to reply
1291 replies to this topic

#61
Muni

Muni

    Russet Potato

  • Members
  • 212 posts
  • LocationExactly where you don't need me to be at the present moment.

Hm? Where does it say that it only works on humans?


Spoiler


From the Type-Moon Wikia~

I'd like to think of myself as the least impressive kind of god. Not omnipotent, omnipresent, or omniscient. Arrogant (as people with god complexes generally tend towards), self-serving (as many gods can be), and flawed (as people inherently are). If you follow me, expect magic tricks, not miracles. But hey, I don't ask for much. Put your faith in me, and I'll put my faith in you, Talk to me (and I've heard more important gods are much pickier about doing this) and I'll talk right back to you. So what do you say? Wanna be a prophet?

Spoiler

#62
「黑風影」

「黑風影」

    Fried Potato

  • Contributor
  • 881 posts
  • Location孤單魂隨風蕩

Finally, a fight between Koji-kun and True Assassin is pointless. Zabaniya only works on humans. Not only is Koji-kun a Servant, he was also never a "real human", and thus the regulations of Zabaniya prevent it from working against him. Without his Noble Phantasm, this is just a repeat of how the battle with the 80 Hassans would go, except with 79 less opponents, albeit the one opponent may have a bit better physical condition/reflexes.


I just wanted to clear up a misunderstanding you may have here. Although I'm not the one to judge type moon wikia<= fans gather information but it is not stated in the game that it can only attacks human.
I do not think Zabiniya Heartbeat of Delusion only targets humans, its just that its ineffective with its own kind (curse).
As long as you have a heart to replicated, that heart is keeping you alive. then you will succumb to the curse (unless you have high magical energy). In the example of Heaven's Feel route, Kotomine did not die becuase his heart was already cursed/tainted by the Holy Grail, he was already techinially dead.
The Assassin class was originally made to be more effective attacking masters rather than fighing other servants due to their low stats comparison. But there was never an official announcment nor was it in the game, that mentions about not able to attack servants, they are just weaker in comparison.

This makes more sense to me becuase all servants summon are heroic spirits, an Eirei (was once a legend/human or not that became spirits). The Hand of Zabiniya was made to attack humans during his life time but now it has become spirt form as well.
If you logically thinking about it, only Heroic spirit are allow to touch the holy grail because its not a tangable object. So I'm pretty sure that if heroic spirits are allow to influence other spiritual form in ways, they can affect all spirtual form (souls) and other heroic spirits. The holy grail was there just to give the soul a form, if mana runs out or they themselves are unable to retain their form in the physical world they simply dissapear .
Thus the concept of a physical heart holds no meaning as long as they are participating in the Holy Grail War. True Assasin should be able to replicate the heart of an Eirei .

Sasaki Kojiro although the character itself is fictional, the person summon as Assassin is a real human that was that was the closest to fit the description of Kojiro.
I hope i didn't misunderstand what you are saying.

I do want to point out if The Hundred-Faced Hassan were to be use , the Assassin (F/Z) stats are divided amongst the 80 bodies if they should be summon; they are many but they are one. Although they are trained assassins, their power levels indivdually do not match up to ones of a heroic spirit.

Edited by 「豆釘 ~ 黑風影」, 07 May 2012 - 03:11 AM.


#63
Katzilla

Katzilla

    Baked Potato

  • Members
  • 1,097 posts
Ah. Weird that Kuro didn't include that, that's kind of important. :P

But hm, maybe what it meant by that is that the victim must have a "human" heart? As in the story is based on a human, and not some spirit creature or god? Otherwise it's kind of useless for a servant to have a noble phantasm that doesn't work on servants at all. That's how I'd interpret "evil spirits and or those affected by their curses", in that it doesn't work on another Hussan, but would work on Kouji, who's not an evil spirit.

Edit: whoops, ninja'd by Kuro. :P Yeah I agree with what's written up there.

sig-1.png


#64
「黑風影」

「黑風影」

    Fried Potato

  • Contributor
  • 881 posts
  • Location孤單魂隨風蕩
Thats alright Katsu =)
On a side note, M3-29 stuff is out =D With a few fate arranged albums


#65
Muni

Muni

    Russet Potato

  • Members
  • 212 posts
  • LocationExactly where you don't need me to be at the present moment.
It's a fair argument that you have, but even if that were the case, I need to say, in an actual fight, there would be no chance for either of the Assassins, simply because Koji isn't a legitimate assassin as much as he's a fighter C: If it were to be an assassination attempt, Koji would stand no chance, but if it wasn't, and both parties knew about the existence of each other, the assassins have already lost any advantage that they could possibly have as...well, assassins. :3

I'd like to think of myself as the least impressive kind of god. Not omnipotent, omnipresent, or omniscient. Arrogant (as people with god complexes generally tend towards), self-serving (as many gods can be), and flawed (as people inherently are). If you follow me, expect magic tricks, not miracles. But hey, I don't ask for much. Put your faith in me, and I'll put my faith in you, Talk to me (and I've heard more important gods are much pickier about doing this) and I'll talk right back to you. So what do you say? Wanna be a prophet?

Spoiler

#66
Katzilla

Katzilla

    Baked Potato

  • Members
  • 1,097 posts
Yeah. When I saw the poll, the first thing that came to mind was a three-way grand battle. So in a way the two assassins don't have that big of an advantage since they're not natural fighters as much as they are information gatherers.

sig-1.png


#67
Muni

Muni

    Russet Potato

  • Members
  • 212 posts
  • LocationExactly where you don't need me to be at the present moment.
That said, in personal opinion, I'd still take one of the Assassin's over Koji xD they have more use in an actual Grail War xD

I'd like to think of myself as the least impressive kind of god. Not omnipotent, omnipresent, or omniscient. Arrogant (as people with god complexes generally tend towards), self-serving (as many gods can be), and flawed (as people inherently are). If you follow me, expect magic tricks, not miracles. But hey, I don't ask for much. Put your faith in me, and I'll put my faith in you, Talk to me (and I've heard more important gods are much pickier about doing this) and I'll talk right back to you. So what do you say? Wanna be a prophet?

Spoiler

#68
Katzilla

Katzilla

    Baked Potato

  • Members
  • 1,097 posts
It's odd, but assassins seems to almost always be the first servants to die in Grail Wars. They have even worse luck than Lancers. xD

sig-1.png


#69
Muni

Muni

    Russet Potato

  • Members
  • 212 posts
  • LocationExactly where you don't need me to be at the present moment.

It's odd, but assassins seems to almost always be the first servants to die in Grail Wars. They have even worse luck than Lancers. xD


Carnival. Lancer. Your argument is invalid xD

I'd like to think of myself as the least impressive kind of god. Not omnipotent, omnipresent, or omniscient. Arrogant (as people with god complexes generally tend towards), self-serving (as many gods can be), and flawed (as people inherently are). If you follow me, expect magic tricks, not miracles. But hey, I don't ask for much. Put your faith in me, and I'll put my faith in you, Talk to me (and I've heard more important gods are much pickier about doing this) and I'll talk right back to you. So what do you say? Wanna be a prophet?

Spoiler

#70
Katzilla

Katzilla

    Baked Potato

  • Members
  • 1,097 posts

Carnival. Lancer. Your argument is invalid xD

I remember that one Illya Castle special...

"Oh my god, they killed Lancer! You bastards!"

Edited by Katzilla, 06 May 2012 - 07:40 PM.

sig-1.png


#71
「黑風影」

「黑風影」

    Fried Potato

  • Contributor
  • 881 posts
  • Location孤單魂隨風蕩

It's odd, but assassins seems to almost always be the first servants to die in Grail Wars. They have even worse luck than Lancers. xD


Funny how Koji stats says he has an A in the Luck department, which is actually higher than caster's (F/SN)!
I forgot which route was it Fate/Stay Night or Fate/ UBW but Koji stayed alive until the last minute to have a battle with Saber before he dissapears. He actually wasn't the first to die... He just doesn't have a lot of screen time.
But yes Assassin and pretty weak in the long run in any Holy Grail War. Its hard to imagine them winning unless its somewhat fighter type like Koji or the one in Fate/ Prototype? and Fate/ Extra.

#72
Katzilla

Katzilla

    Baked Potato

  • Members
  • 1,097 posts
Well, I said "Assassins", but I was really referring strictly to Hussans. They seem to get killed quite easily once they appear. Which makes sense in context, since assassins aren't supposed to "appear".

sig-1.png


#73
「黑風影」

「黑風影」

    Fried Potato

  • Contributor
  • 881 posts
  • Location孤單魂隨風蕩

Well, I said "Assassins", but I was really referring strictly to Hussans. They seem to get killed quite easily once they appear. Which makes sense in context, since assassins aren't supposed to "appear".


XD XD yes they go undetected and kill before you seen their face. Whomever is their master must have a lot of patience and schemes just like Matou Zouken....dislike that geezer, if they plan to win the Holy Grail War. Its funny how I could see Kiritsugu partnering pretty well with them, strangely, except it is not in his nature to summon them.

#74
Muni

Muni

    Russet Potato

  • Members
  • 212 posts
  • LocationExactly where you don't need me to be at the present moment.
Oh, now that we're on the topic, what class do you guys think you would be if you were servants? :3 Normal classes of course, otherwise I would be tempted to say "Saver".

I'd like to think of myself as the least impressive kind of god. Not omnipotent, omnipresent, or omniscient. Arrogant (as people with god complexes generally tend towards), self-serving (as many gods can be), and flawed (as people inherently are). If you follow me, expect magic tricks, not miracles. But hey, I don't ask for much. Put your faith in me, and I'll put my faith in you, Talk to me (and I've heard more important gods are much pickier about doing this) and I'll talk right back to you. So what do you say? Wanna be a prophet?

Spoiler

#75
Katzilla

Katzilla

    Baked Potato

  • Members
  • 1,097 posts
If I ended up getting stuck with Assassin, I'd probably try to plot assassinating masters instead of servants. With Hussan's ability to stay practically invisible when hidden, no servant would detect him...and when they do it'd be too late.

sig-1.png


#76
「黑風影」

「黑風影」

    Fried Potato

  • Contributor
  • 881 posts
  • Location孤單魂隨風蕩

Oh, now that we're on the topic, what class do you guys think you would be if you were servants? :3 Normal classes of course, otherwise I would be tempted to say "Saver".


I ask of thee, are thou my masta? :3 Kitty face*
You would be quite the reliable servant with your swordmanship =D
But yes, Saver character seems very interesting =) all forgiving or liberation through divine punishment....

For me, its hard to say since I don't have specialization in any sort of class nor any particular skills...
If I had to choose I would probably be Avenger but avenger is not main class, and he can only be Angra. The only thing I can really relate is personality lawful good, netural, evil etc. I guess if I ever become an Eirei, most likely be Beserker....as neutral chaotic if that is even possible.

If I ended up getting stuck with Assassin, I'd probably try to plot assassinating masters instead of servants. With Hussan's ability to stay practically invisible when hidden, no servant would detect him...and when they do it'd be too late.


Yes that would be a wise choice. The probable back fire to this may be some masters to have innate ability such as six sense,intinctual sense of danger, or incredible luck. Once Assassin goes into attack mode, his blood thrist would reveal himself. Depending on the reaction time, the master might have a few tricks up his sleeves, epseically with Kotomine or Kiritsugu. Although most masters are indeed magus, no matter how strong the magical barrier is, Hassan could probably bypass this with no problem, shown in the episode of Fate/Zero (I personally like that part of inflitration... even though he got killed).

It makes me wonder, if Kotomine or Kiritsugu become men of legends... does that mean we can summon them, if they make contact with the Holy Grail , just like Archer?
Maybe I should put that as a poll question sometime XD

Edited by 「豆釘 ~ 黑風影」, 06 May 2012 - 09:57 PM.


#77
Katzilla

Katzilla

    Baked Potato

  • Members
  • 1,097 posts
Hm...wonder what class Kotomine and Kiritsugu would be if they did become Heroic Spirits.

sig-1.png


#78
「黑風影」

「黑風影」

    Fried Potato

  • Contributor
  • 881 posts
  • Location孤單魂隨風蕩
I would say both are good magus but they make better Assassin. Especially Kotomine being an excutioner for the church, throwing black keys around.
Kiritsugu can conceal is presence very well when with trained heart stop movement and had already done quite a lot of assassination, smooth operator.

#79
Muni

Muni

    Russet Potato

  • Members
  • 212 posts
  • LocationExactly where you don't need me to be at the present moment.
Hmmm :o With my limited skill set I would probably be either a Saber or Berserker xD...well, at least I don't really know other classes that I would fit into. Now I really wanna make a Heroic Spirit Profile for myself and others...xD wouldn't it be cool to take stuff we think we're good at in RL and translate it into a Noble Phantasm of some sort? xD

I'd like to think of myself as the least impressive kind of god. Not omnipotent, omnipresent, or omniscient. Arrogant (as people with god complexes generally tend towards), self-serving (as many gods can be), and flawed (as people inherently are). If you follow me, expect magic tricks, not miracles. But hey, I don't ask for much. Put your faith in me, and I'll put my faith in you, Talk to me (and I've heard more important gods are much pickier about doing this) and I'll talk right back to you. So what do you say? Wanna be a prophet?

Spoiler

#80
Katzilla

Katzilla

    Baked Potato

  • Members
  • 1,097 posts
That's how it works, right? I mean
Spoiler

sig-1.png