1291 replies to this topic

[Muni]

Exactly ;3. Pick a trait(s) and make Noble Phantasms outta it :3. Let's not go too cheap though~ I don't think any of us have Anti-World Phantasms~

[MezzoParody]

I'm gone for such a short time and suddenly, conversation! Conversation everywhere!

She was surprisingly quite funny, here is a video I found with her doing side commentaries on F/SN anime, only if you can understand japanese without subtitles.

Spoiler

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=B9NteZgj2Io

I could only understand about half of that, but it did a great job of reminding me why I love Rider so much. I wish she had more appearances in Carnival Phantasm

For the current topic of Assassin vs Assassin...I'm probably just gonna sit this one out. Mostly because I remember so little of either (any?) of the Assassins, and also mostly because if they're going head-to-head in combat, they're just plain doin it wrong. I'd like to see a Holy Grail War where someone actually uses Assassin properly, and, you know, assassinates everyone.

Exactly ;3. Pick a trait(s) and make Noble Phantasms outta it :3. Let's not go too cheap though~ I don't think any of us have Anti-World Phantasms~

Hmm. Applying my traits/skills to a combat situation. That's so far removed from anything in my usual life...I mean, I can't even boast mild athleticism. So maybe Caster. I could, uh, use the power of the internet. Confuse enemies with random trivia. Riddle their system files with evil viruses. Trap them in TVTropes. Yep, takin the Holy Grail War to cyberspace. I'd transform the Nasuverse into a Sci-fi series. You all know it would be awesome.

[「黑風影」]

I'm gone for such a short time and suddenly, conversation! Conversation everywhere!

For the current topic of Assassin vs Assassin...I'm probably just gonna sit this one out. Mostly because I remember so little of either (any?) of the Assassins, and also mostly because if they're going head-to-head in combat, they're just plain doin it wrong. I'd like to see a Holy Grail War where someone actually uses Assassin properly, and, you know, assassinates everyone.

Haha XD Welcome back Mezzo =)
For assassination attempts made by assassin in fate were not too grand XD
Assassin are generally never made for head to head combat. When it does get to that point, it would've been last resort. They have great usage to gain information, monitor/stalk, hide presence, they move only when necessary to avoid direct confrontation.
In an ideal case, everyone else is busy finishing each other off... when the opportunity presences itself, they go in and finish the job (like how Illya killed Matou Shinji).

Koji was made to guard the front gates of the temple, he wasn't really used for actual assassination.
True Assassin made a few assassination attempt...

Spoiler

one on Shirou but Rider saved him in heaven's feel.... I think. The other was epic battle with Kotomine! (Kotomine PWNS all ) but failed yet again.
True Assassin wasn't really use for assassination against masters, it was more for stall whoever gets in Zouken's way and have the black blob octopus absorb all servants.
I think there was a battle against him and Lancer... but it was not shown due scenes being cut off to keep the suspense and mystery ... but I guess it was a sucessful assasination attempt with the black octopus blob. That is why Kotomine agree to help in the first place... I think, he also lost Gil but that was not becuase of True Assassin.

Assassin (F/Z) was only used to collect data to aid Tohsaka, they were used as scarficial pawns to monitor and gain data on every opponent, for the grand scheme of things. Although you did see the part were one Assassin try to kill Tohsaka (even though its part of their plan), he sucessfully bypass jewel alarm system pretty skillfully.... he just never made it past Gil.
Personally I think Kiritsugu was a better assassin in F/Z with his extreme methods of obtaining victory at all cost; a more modern warfare tactical assasination method.

Anything natsu is awesome! XD

Edited by 「豆釘 ~ 黑風影」, 08 May 2012 - 04:49 AM.

[Soran Lioncore]

I think if Kiritsugu become a heroic spirit, he will become one of the most powerful Assassin class servant.
Kiritsugu has a radical method in assassination, and plus he has special bullets that can destroy a mage's Magic Circuit.
I just wondering if he use these special bullets on another servant, the outcome might be bad for the one he shot.
Kiritsugu also has a time manipulation Reality Marble, Just think what he can do with this ability if he become a heroic spirit.

Beside Assassin class, Kiritsugu might also might become an Archer class servant, since guns are considered as the bow and arrows of our modern era.
Though Assassin class suits Kiritsugu better due his dark nature, and Kiritsugu also doesn't give a damn care
about the knight's path of chivalry.

[atdy587]

Y do ppl tend to forget about Caster? Yes, this is a class weak in 1v1 situation but they r freaking strong in other ways.
In FSN, caster has an extra servant which i feel she did not use properly. In Heaven's feel, she managed to be Saber's master even if it is for a short period of time.
In F/Z, he could only be killed by Saber and Gilgamesh once he unleash his true abilities.
In Fate Extra, She is a freaking god. Just that she have an incompetent master.

Comparing Assassins
True assassin pretty much sucks as Kotomine managed to fight him on even grounds if memory serves me right.
Assassins from Fate Zero does not have much combat powers individually so i think a group of trained human beings can fight them in an even match.
So this leaves the Assassin from FSN who have sword skills better then saber(if they were fighting on flat ground instead of on steps.) and an infinite prana supply( Servant of Caster)

[Katzilla]

^ We're discussing members of one class against their own class, and we haven't reached the Caster class yet. That's why we aren't discussing Casters. We aren't even discussing who's the better class, just the one that suits our style.

[atdy587]

Oh sry abt that lolz. Must have misread:p

Anyways for lancer, FSN lancer have battle continuation which if it has the same effect as the Fate extra, it is pretty much overpowered so even if Lancer from F/Z managed to land a near fatal blow, FSN lancer would still be able to fight.

Edited by atdy587, 10 May 2012 - 03:51 PM.

[「黑風影」]

Spoiler

@ Sesaje : WOOT! ARCHER-KO ~~~ <3!
Ahem* Hell yeahh, If Kiritsugu was summon as Archer class, he won't even't need the sniping scope. But I would argue that those are special bullets forged with his bones, he probably doesn't have a lot of those. That doesn't make him any less badass though =9
On the other hand, His true nature is good (his alignment is probably neutral) as you call see in F/SN and his father mode. He just choose to throw away his heart for his ideals.
Compare to Kotomine where his true nature is already corrupt... he tried hard to be good but failed to do so

Spoiler

Trying to love his wife was the last attempt at humanity. Being a particpant in the Holy Grail and meeting Gil was the trigger to becoming a troll king sadistic badass goudere.

Thus, this is why Kotomine was so interested in Kiritsugu and called him his exact opposite.

@atdy: Welcome man. As Katsu have said, we are just comparing servants within their class and not against other classes. The first question was which servant are you would like or more likely to summon.
But you came just on time, becuase the 3rd round would be on Caster =)

For your True Assassin sucks remark... Its either that True Assassin sucks or Kotomine is just overly strong. (I FREAKIN LOVE THAT BATTLE.)
That is not surprising becuase he was an excutioner/exorcist for the church. Also if you are talking about power levels against a heroic spirit, most masters are not as strong but that does not mean they cannot go head to head with them. Take Bazett, for example, she was sent from the church and could probably kill a few servants.

Anyways for lancer, FSN lancer have battle continuation which if it has the same effect as the Fate extra, it is pretty much overpowered so even if Lancer from F/Z managed to land a near fatal blow, FSN lancer would still be able to fight.

Just out of curiousity, even though you did say FSN lancer would be able to fight XD You sort of voted for FZ. Any reason for that?


Lastly, all the participants have gathered...REJOICE YOUNG ONES! Your wish will finally come true! The time has come!

素に銀と鉄。礎に石と契約の大公。祖には我が大師シュバインオーグ。...
So ni gin to tetsu. So ni ishi to keiyaku no taikou. So ni wa waga daishi Schweinorg.
“Bare silver and iron. Stone for foundation and the Grand Duke of contracts. My great master Shveinorg for the ancestor...."

Edited by 「豆釘 ~ 黑風影」, 11 May 2012 - 02:21 AM.

[Katzilla]

"A wallfor the descending winds. The four gates shall close and come out the crown. Let the three-forked road to the kingdom cycle."
Or something like that.

Was that for summoning circles?

[「黑風影」]

yes katsu.

閉じよ (みたせ)。閉じよ (みたせ)。閉じよ (みたせ)。閉じよ (みたせ)。閉じよ (みたせ)。
Tojiyo (mitase). Tojiyo (mitase). Tojiyo (mitase). Tojiyo (mitase). Tojiyo (mitase).
"Enclose. Enclose. Enclose. Enclose. Enclose."

繰り返すつどに五度。
Kurikaesu tsudo ni godo.
"Five times for each repetition."

ただ、満たされる刻を破却する。
Tada, mitasareru toki wo hakyaku suru.
"Just destroy the enclosed time."


summoning circle glows*

Edited by 「豆釘 ~ 黑風影」, 11 May 2012 - 01:54 AM.

[atdy587]

Well when i voted, i assume superior is across the board usefulness rather then pitting one hero against another and it was before i read the thread....
I made the comment abt lancer only after I read the either thread lolz:p
Edit: anyway, we did nt see F/Z true noble phantasm. I highly doubt those spears are only passive in nature as he said that he is able to kill caster with one hit if they open the way for him so he might have a anti personnel noble phantasm but too bad he died before showing it to us lolz.

Edited by atdy587, 11 May 2012 - 02:35 AM.

[Gilver]

A master piece of a series no doubt.
Even though there are some annoying elements(such as shirou)it still stoods out.
I need to play fate/hollow ataraxia.Although,they say that the english patch is still not done yet.For a 7 year old VN,this is ridiculous.

[「黑風影」]

@atdy587:
For Lancer (F/Z) noble phantasm. His lance are his noble phantasm and does state it is passively used. Does not need to call forth name to activate their power; meaning its does not go dormant and is always active. The reason why he says he could kill Caster in one hit is that no matter what magical barrier he puts up, its like having no armor at all (will still be pierced by his spears). Not all noble phantasm requires activation to use, thus there are seperated into types (anti-personnel /unit, anit-army,etc.).
Here is a picture of actual stats window.

Spoiler

Here is my post regarding some of its power (not direct translation but the gist of what it is saying)

Ahhh then that might explain why... voting which is more superior is also about preference of determining how useful a servant is to that particular person. Maybe I should start wording the question differently and meant them to be pit against each other head to head, to avoid the confusion...

@GIlver: Welcome Gilver =) It's Gil-chan X3 Ahhh for Fate/Hollow Ataraxia right now its 79% done with the 3rd patch on the way... You might need to wait till the summer to play it at 70% translated state. Its not entirely ridiculous becuase unlike previous works done by the team mirror moon. You have a bunch of groups that started (from different languages as well, such as korean=> english partial translation). Beast Lair just attempts to unify all the translation available, the rest are done by volunteer work and annoymous people online ... which usually mess up the translation without fully understanding the context, direct translation that isn't fluent in english, or that its non uniform. People come and go.... Be glad that is they are still working on it.
========================================================================================

I guess its time to throw in my two-cents on three way battle of Assassins.
If one to assume this is a three way battle, all in top conditions no hold backs, without know each other abilties...
I think, Assassin (F/Z) would be on stand by again. Similarly to kotomine's method ,monitor everyone movement and collecting data before excuting a plan.
Like I've said before, they would wait for the perfect chance to finish off either master or injured servant. The best outcome is for either Assassin (F/SN) or True Assassin (F/SN) can finish each other off. They won't even lift a finger and win by default.
Like Katsuri have said, both Assassin from F/SN would need to put priority on taking out Assassin (F/Z) first before they swarm in masses with assassination technique on par with True Assassin (F/SN) without the delusional heartbeat arm.
The problem lies if True Assassin (F/SN) is able to detect Assassin (F/Z) since they are both related Hassin, and their Presence Concealment is both A+ rank.
This maybe solved by having Assassin (F/SN)'s Mind's Eye (Fake) , so called sixth sense to tell if someone is watch or not during a battle.
Assassin (F/Z) were to aim for their master, they/he would need to actually make sure if Assassin (F/SN) is bound to the land or to the master, if land than Assassin (F/SN) will still remain for a few more days.

In an 1 v.s 1 situation.
Assassin (F/SN) may win against 70, he seems like the type of warrior that could battle many and hold down a fort. With his instincts and sword perfection. Assassin (F/Z) probably doesnt' have a chance unless they all attack at a distant. All of the Hassans are skilled assassins that are split into different tasks and weaponary. They don't even need to split into 70 very weak ones, maybe 30 somewhat stronger ones would do better.
Assassin (F/SN) v.s True Assassin (F/SN), Delusional heartbeat would be hard to dodge since Koji doesn't have high MGI => may lose the battle.
True Assassin (F/SN) v.s.Assassin (F/Z) ,Delusional heartbeat cannot work against his own kind... thus useless. This comes down to who ever is the better hassan assassin ... even the best hassan could be outnumber so I'm going with Assassin (F/Z). I believe the Assassin (F/Z is a better leader in overall planning.

Verdict:
Assassin (F/SN) 1
True Assassin (F/SN) 1
Assassin (F/Z) 1

the battle could go either way XD

Edited by 「豆釘 ~ 黑風影」, 11 May 2012 - 03:30 AM.

[Gilver]

@GIlver: Welcome Gilver =) It's Gil-chan X3 Ahhh for Fate/Hollow Ataraxia right now its 79% done with the 3rd patch on the way... You might need to wait till the summer to play it at 70% translated state. Its not entirely ridiculous becuase unlike previous works done by the team mirror moon. You have a bunch of groups that started (from different languages as well, such as korean=> english partial translation). Beast Lair just attempts to unify all the translation available, the rest are done by volunteer work and annoymous people online ... which usually mess up the translation without fully understanding the context, direct translation that isn't fluent in english, or that its non uniform. People come and go.... Be glad that is they are still working on it.

Oh gee,thanks for info!

[atdy587]

Lancer F/Z noble phantasm is anti personnel not anti unit if I m reading the Kanji correctly.
If fighting on flat ground, i think Assassin FSN have no problem winning but if fighting on steps, there is a way to dodge his attacks.
Edit: but if assassin F/Z swarms him, he might lose cause his attack is best 1v1.

Edited by atdy587, 11 May 2012 - 03:32 AM.

[「黑風影」]

No problem Gilver =) hahah XD I have that picture as well XD

@ atdy: Yes personnel, but if my english isn't failing me personnel (tool) and unit is interchangable word in this context. They just mean its not for an army or not meant to great wide scale damage.
I agree that Assassin FSN can fight on flat land no problem, he doesn't phase much even on elevated angled steps. When fighting, it is normal to assume people on a higher height has the tactical advantage instead of being the one to push its way upwards against gravity. its just his Tsubame Gaeshi, does not have enough room to add the 3rd simultaneous swing. If i remember properly.
Assassin F/Z is one and many... it can split at anytime due to his Noble Phantasm, Zabaniya- Delusional Illusion, so when I meant 1 v.s. 1 it is not refering to number of entity but the heroic spirit. Assassin FSN may not lose if its close combat even with swarm, becuase technically almost all of Assassin F/Z are weaker in comparison, even more so when they split. If Assassin F/Z wants a chance to win, then it would have to be at a distance.

Edited by 「豆釘 ~ 黑風影」, 11 May 2012 - 04:00 AM.

[Muni]

Just my two cents. if there was any non-canon powers involved, Koji would win no doubt :3...Fate/Unlimited Codes made him a cheap cheap boy :3.

[「黑風影」]

Nuohhh FATE/Unlimited Code..... ;_; me jelly Muni.

Yes, invincible close combat XD
However, these are what makes a skilled assassin(in general not as a servant class), inflitration and attack using whatever method necessary. Perfectly timed arrange throwing projectilie weapons at point blank distance would count as a tactic.

[Muni]

It's for the PSP, so it's not region locked why don't you buy it?

[「黑風影」]

no console... too poor to afford anything ;_; Gotta pay down my debts =_=