1291 replies to this topic

[MezzoParody]

Yeah, I'm personally hoping we get to see more Magical Amber. And maybe Ryougi Shiki and the rest of the KnK crew. At the very end when all the characters were there, I'm pretty sure I did some kind of fan girl squeal thing.

On the bright side, it's pretty much impossible for them to run out of parody material, and the fandom is obsessive enthusiastic enough to always crave more. But they also have to deal with more practical problems. Like money...

[Katzilla]

Just saw episode 16 yesterday.

Eggs 'o cariba was so awesome to finally see. ;o And as always Rider is GAR as hell, but Archer was pretty cool.

[「黑風影」]

I'm holding a poll right now to get this party started.
For those of you that doesn't want to click back to the first page, I'll copy and paste info here.

EDIT : I put up a poll for you guys to get this thread going, I'm quite interested in your opinions.

Firstly, I would like to know what class do you prefer to summon your servant/ what class do you think you are more align with? and why would that be?
Tactical advantages? Do you have any heroic spirit do you have in mind to support your decision(does not necessarily need to appear in the anime)? Here is an list of all the normal unmodified parameters and more information about each type of class.

This second question is more dedicated to the fans that know both series,
It is comparing Fate/Zero servants to Fate/Stay Night servants.
I would modify this poll each week, to add more servants.
*******Saber would be a special case since she appeared in both series, I'll have a question especially designated for her.*****
This week (April 29th,2012), is Lancer show down! (i'll probably hold this poll for a month depending on the reaction)
Lancer (Fate/Zero)
Lancer (Fate/Stay Night)
Please feel free to discuss here about your decisions.

To help you guys determine your choices, I'll post some battle stats you might want to know. According to Type Moon Wikia....
Servants Abilities are ranked based upon their personal Strength, Endurance, Agility, Luck, Magical Energy, and Noble Phantasm, parameters going from EX (value cannot be quantify by normal system) => A (highest normal system) to E (lowest) .
Please note that rank E already posess superior skills above what normal humans can achieve since they are heroic spirits you are dealing with.
There are also two types of modifiers that could be seen "+" and "-" added into each rank.
"The "+" modifier represents the capacity of a temporary boost in power if certain conditions are met, allowing a weapon or ability of a lower rank to surpass a higher rank for a moment.
base value ~
+ indicates 2x increase
++ indicates a 3x increase
+++ indicates a 4x ncrease.

There has yet to be information on "-" but I do not think its necesary a bad thing. I'll add more if I figure it out.
Please note that Noble Phantasm are servants triump card, even if base stats are not too high, depending on the Nobel Phantasm abilties and how it is used (when, or if there is a command spell boost), battles can be over turned.
Also Base stats are affect negatively if master does not have enough mana too support the servant fully (maybe keep their existence in the world but not max power), thus there are a few options. One is to gain mana through tapping into prana streams or methods of absorbing mana through killing or sharing mana lines to replenish. Second option is to severe contract with current master and make another one with a more superior masters. Thirdly is to bear through the disavantage.

Class Skills+/ Individual Skills: Each class is granted certain skills upon summoning. They generally reflect the abilities that they had in life, but they will not always have had the corresponding skills. Even if the Heroic Spirit did not have the abilities in life, they will still get a lower ranked version of the skill automatically if they fit the class.


Although Lancer (Fate/Zero) doesn't actually have ingame stats since it was never made into a game , I'll see what I can do about that. FOUND IN GAME STATUS MENU!

Lancer(Fate/Stay Night)

Spoiler

Abilities STATS~
~Strength: B ~Magical energy: C
~Endurance: C ~Luck: E
~Agility: A ~Noble Phantasm: B

Class Abilities~

Magical Resistance: C
- Nullifies all magic that requires less than two verses( verses in magical chants said to cast spells). Cannot block large-scale magic such as great magic (does not require chants to cast) and ritual magic (magical circles, noble phantasm attack, etc.)

Note: magical resistance have protection from magical effects, this is different from Resistance effect that merely rejects prana. This ability cancels the spells altogether. Important to note that the term "verse" seen above refers to a set of three lines. Thus, a chant of two verses is equivalent to a Six-Line incantation. (In this case 6 line incantation or lower is nulled)


Possessed Skill~

Battle continuation: A
- Does not give up easily. It allows for battle even on the verge of death, and allows the user to staay alive until they receive a clearly fatal blow.

Divinity: B
- Strength of one's god-like nature, The more godlike blood possesed, the higher this stat becomes. (In this case, Lancer is a demigod)

Skill~

Restart: C
-The ability to escape battle. It can also return an unfavourable battle to the beginning (turn 1), and restre the conditions of techniques to their initial states.

Rune: B
-The possesion of the Northern european Magic Crest, Rune.

Protection against arrows: B
-Defense against projectilie weapons. As long as one keeps the shooter in its vision, one can perceive and defend against any projectile weapon.
However, it cannot be used against a direct attack from a distance, and it also cannot be used against a wide-range attack that hits many.

Noble Phantasm~
Gae Bolg ~ Pierciing Lance of Death Thorns

Spoiler

Gae Bolg ~ Thrusting Lance of Death Flight

Spoiler

Lancer(Fate/Zero)

Spoiler

~Strength: B ~Magical energy: D
~Endurance: C ~Luck: E
~Agility: A+ ~Noble Phantasm: B

Class Special Abilities~

Magical Resistance: B
-cancel spells with a chant below three verses. Even if targeted by High-Thaumaturgy and Greater Rituals, it is difficult for him to be affected.

Note: magical resistance have protection from magical effects, this is different from Resistance effect that merely rejects prana. This ability cancels the spells altogether. Important to note that the term "verse" seen above refers to a set of three lines. Thus, a chant of two verses is equivalent to a Six-Line incantation. (In this case, 9 lines of incantation or lower is nulled)

Possessed Skill~

Eye of the Mind (True) : B
-Is heightened insight that was refined through experience.
-Capable of calm analysis of battle conditions even when in danger and deduce an appropriate course of action after considering all possibilities to escape from a predicament. So long there is even a 1% chance of a comeback, this ability greatly improves the chances of winning.

Mystic Face~ Love Spot: C

Note: Mystic face is a spell (curse) inherent of one's facial features which is cast as soon as the target look at the user's face.

• Diarmuid Ua Duibhne's Mystic Face skill works the same as mystic eyes Charm type. Casting of a spell that distorts the target's perception so that he sees the caster as someone of great sex appeal; seemingly it only works with members of the opposite sex.

Noble Phantasm~
Gáe Dearg • Crimson Rose of Exorcism:

• Rank: B
• Type: Anti-Unit
• Range: 2-4
• Maximum number of targets: 1 person

- A crimson spear that severs prana. Any armor, seal, protection formed by magic will be revealed if come in contact with this spear. The instant the spear and the armor clash, this spear cuts off the flow of prana, and renders protection powerless.

Gae Buidhe • Yellow Rose of Mortality:

• Rank: B
• Type: Anti-Unit
• Range: 2-3
• Maximum number of targets: 1 person

- It is a cursed spear; wounds dealt by it would never heal. The spear lowers the opponent's maximum health limit,thus limiting healing and regeneration abilities to the point where the opponent received the injury.

Both spears are passive in nature. It does not require its name to be called upon in order to be utilized, allowing it to instantly actualize their powers upon striking the enemy.

Edited by 「豆釘 ~ 黑風影」, 30 April 2012 - 03:36 AM.

[Katzilla]

Seeing as my alignment is more towards Lawful Neutral, I'd probably summon Lancer, more specifically Fate/Stay Night's Lancer.

If I had to choose between either lancers, in terms of prowess alone, I'd say Fate/Stay Night's lancer is more superior. That's only from what I've seen of both anyway.

[MezzoParody]

I think I'd prefer to summon an Archer. It's a little difficult to say, since so much depends on exactly which heroic spirit it is. But I like the independent action thing, even though the Archers we've seen all seem to be a pain to deal with. Other than that, a Rider like the one from F/SN might be cool. I like the sneaky types. (Just not assassin).

Between the two Lancers I choose the one from F/Z. Because...he has a nicer outfit?

[Katzilla]

Yeaaaaah. The whole blue jump suit thing isn't working out for F/S N's Archer.

[「黑風影」]

DONE covering most of the statistic of both Lancer in post #23
You guys can have a look =)

Should I even throw in fate prototype lancer in the mix? XD
He has a pretty cool outfit out of all the lancer. Very tribal feel. Although the jump suits is mostly design for speed purposes, I think the blue jumpsuit wasn't too bad for F/SN Lancer. It has a nice contrast between the two Archer v.s. Lancer (red yellow and blue XD).

I'll probably do my vote later to explain my choices. I don't really want to influence the votes at this point of the game. .

Edited by 「豆釘 ~ 黑風影」, 30 April 2012 - 03:56 AM.

[Katzilla]

Nice job Kuro. That's some good stuff there. From status alone we can see they're almost equal, with F/SN's lancer having more magical energy (but slightly weaker resistance to it and agility), while F/Z's lancer is slightly quicker and has slightly more magical endurance, but little magical energy.

I still maintain my old opinion though. F/Z's NPs are all passive, yet very effective (if they hit that is). F/SN's NPs on the other hand are either sure-kill, or destroy a whole unit. If these two were to go head-to-head, I'd say F/SN's lancer would win by a small margin.

Edited by Katzilla, 30 April 2012 - 11:25 AM.

[MezzoParody]

If F/SN Lancer used Gae Bolg (with the heart stabby thing) early on, it wouldn't be much competition. F/Z Lancer has terrible luck, and would certainly lose. But who knows, maybe his Eye of the Mind would help him get in a few hits with Gae Buide, and maybe prevent F/SN Lancer from getting chance to do that.

You know, it's funny. I've seen conversations like these all the time on the internets, but never participated in one before. I've always considered myself rather unknowledgable about the Nasuverse, so I've never really thought about these things before. This is sorta fun

[Katzilla]

That's true. I was taking F/Z Lancer's agility in consideration though. Technically, if he kept attacking the (slightly) slower F/SN's Lancer, he wouldn't have enough time to attack with Gae Bolg. So it's all about who holds out longer, and if F/SN's Lancer finds an opening to use it.

Btw I also don't usually do these things. Hope I'm doing it right lol.

[「黑風影」]

This is my first time too mezzo and katsu =) I always felt inadequate and awkward whenever I visit Beast Lair forums orz.
I'm glad that you guys are confortable enough to discuss about these things here =D

I guess I'll post my opinion on this as well.
I agree with Katsu, both stats are some one similar and both the same class spearman, the battle could go anywhere.

When I made the question, I orginally meant it in a battle situation but somehow I phrased it as whom is more superior as a servant.
Lancer (F/Z) follows the code of honour for knights and likes to battle fairly if master allows. Extremely loyal until the end. If he was partnered with a better tactical master, he would've been a formidable enemy. Due to his abilities, I would say he would be a mostly do very well in a 1 on 1, close combat melee. The most troublesome would actually be noble phantasm with anti army abilites from a distance. Although Lancer has high magical resistence, if the enemy or attack is too far to come in contact with his spears then he would need to play defensively and take damage. Since Lancer cannot do power moves due to his spears passive nature( limit to 1 person only), there must some how be a negotiation between other servants to team up or have his Master be some what on par with a servant, that has power and skills of anti army type to support him.

Lancer (F/SN) personality wise, he doesn't like troublesome things nor does he care much about honour of knights. He battles for the sake for the trill of battle, anything that holds his interested on a whim. There could be many careless mistakes made, if he isn't restrained at some point, he may or may not choose to obey you. The good part about Lancer is that he is good for attack and retreat, a little more versatile on the battlefield with two type of attacks.

If both Lancers were to battle, Lancer (F/Z) has the upper advantage in terms of speed and dual weapons. His true mind's eye allows him to analyze, and escape fatal blows. Since both Lance are curse spears, if either one have suffer from damage then it will seriously affect their performance. This is where Lancer (F/SN) good points comes in to play, his Battle continuation and restart abilities makes Lancer tough to kill. Thus regroup and reformulate a plan is a possiblity.
Assuming both Lancers met for the first time without knowing each other's Noble Phantasm, Lancer (F/SN) has a pretty good chance to use Gae bolg (sadly he needs to announce its name before activation).
One may argue Lancer (F/Z) true mind's eye and high agility can do a marginal parry against Gae bolg, once he figure out the direction of where Gae bolg would always aim for the heart. However, as the screenshots explaination of Gae Bolg ~ Piercing Lance of Death Thorns, one requires higher Luck to reverse one fate of getting killed. Which both Lancer clearly lacks (both dies in such tragic ways in the series =\ those hitogoroshi XD).
If by chance Lancer (F/Z) knows of Lancer (F/SN) then like Mezzo says, as long as there is constant close combat, without rest then Gae bolg cannot activate.
The rest depends on the personality of how they both enjoy a good battle and their master.
Another triump card of Lancer (F/SN) is Gae Bolg ~ Thrusting Lance of Death Flight, it could be use as a preemptive strike but also another chance could present itself during battle as well. If Lancer (F/Z) allows Lancer (F/SN) time to use this attack out of pure code of honor and over confidence in self, then Lancer (F/SN) could turn this battle around. It is somewhat insane to parry a noble phantasm attack when the spear is thrown since the shock waves would blow you apart before Lancer (F/Z) 's Gáe Dearg could even reach Gáe bolg.

This is my opinion but I'm pretty much with Katsuri on this one =9.

[MezzoParody]

Yeah, I'll have to agree with your analysis on that. Very well thought out by the way, I applaud you! I think it'd be a fun fight to watch regardless, especially with the way their personalities clash. I'm sure their battle banter would have me laughing out loud. F/Z's Lancer still has the nicer outfit though

...I wonder if we scared everyone else away? It seems to just be the three of us now =P

[「黑風影」]

Thanks Mezzo =)
I could imagine Lancer (F/SN) complainly how knight like Lancer (F/Z) is, while Lancer (F/Z) would say something abotu him being a dog XD.
Or the scnario could turn out like what F/SN Lancer would say "yesterday's friend tomorrow's enemy", they just go out drinking with one another, complaining how bad their masters were. XD

I hope not, I think people are afraid of acessing this thread due to the spoilers it contains. Maybe I'll should try to advertise this thread a little. I don't want people to feel force to join this, it should be out of curiousity and interest but some exposure should be good.
There might be a chance that there would be more people willing to comment after Fate/Zero is done airing.
If no one else comes this week , I'll probably get round 2 up earlier =D

[「黑風影」]

Random FATE video to share with you guys.

Spoiler

Edited by 「豆釘 ~ 黑風影」, 03 May 2012 - 04:51 AM.

[Katzilla]

This is gonna sound derpy, but what exactly is Ataraxia? I've heard about it, and how it expands a bit on the Fate universe and has some of Fate/Stay's characters, most notably Lancer. But is it a game, a novel, an anime or a manga? Or something else?

[MezzoParody]

It's a game/visual novel. If you ever played Tsukihime and its sequel Kagetsu Tohya, it's kind of like that. A half-canon sequel with a lot of gags and jokes. But unlike Kagetsu Tohya, Ataraxia has been stuck in a half-translated state for several years. So for those of us who can't read Japanese, we only know what others tell us about it...

[Katzilla]

That explains why I can't find it anywhere in English. I've already played the visual novel of the original series, so I was looking forward to checking it out.

[「黑風影」]

@ Katsuri : As Mezzo said, its a sequel to the Fate/Stay Night visual novel game.
I've posted this before but I'll quote myself again =)

@ Sesaje:
Fate Hollow Ataraxia is almost like a paradoxical time dejavu loop, repeating of 4 days over and over again, creating unlimited amount of possiblities. Each time it repeats you unlock more to the actual mystery (as well as the fan service mini plots). No matter what happens at the end of the 4th day, it will always go back to the first.
Since the only reason why servants exist in the first place is through the power granted by the omnipotent Holy Grail. If they are in this world then there should be a Holy Grail War, there also has been strange occurances happening at fuyuki city...
[

Other than the fan service (You can play the Illya's castle mini game in it.), the main storyline is quite interesting.
The translation status for ataraxia is 79% done last time I checked. The 3rd patch was said to be out soon, so far the game testers/members are playing it.

@Mezzo: Hell yeahh Kagetsu Tohya, good stuff man. / w \

[Raika]

ok... caught up with the lancer bit...
I think Lancer-z will win over lancer-sn, since taking all the other things into account, the only way to measure their strength is for them to test it out, and we can take someone they both fought, and use it to compare the lancers.
Also to take into consideration, Lancer-Z never actually used his full strength, since due to his nature, and his code. Also he never had a real needing for the grail, instead he was looking for someone for him to be loyal to. So, what I think, is that he did not really go all out, and when he might have gone all out with saber, he was cut short.
So, both lancers fought with the same saber, so I think it is safe to use saber for to compare them. Lancer-Z did more harmful damage to saber, and even saber thought he was hard to land a hit on. Lancer-z even got her left hand. by looking at that, Lancer-z had a good chance of winning over saber. As for Lancer-sn, he did not pose much danger, accept for his Gae thingy, which was block by saber at least once I think. So I would think that Lancer-z would win over lancer-sn.
oh and did any of you see the new Fate game? the one with Frankenstein and all those new people.

[Katzilla]

You mean the online game, Fate/Apocrypha? Wasn't it canceled?