310 replies to this topic

[NoboriRyu]

Im talking about the reason WHY people defend Edese in the first place not the reasons they use to defend her with. Anyone can come up with a plethora of reasons to defend a particular character they like but what Im trying to address is the reason why they like that character enough to defend them.I don't see this forum ablaze with post defending the prime minister or really anyone else that doesn't happen to be a cute girl.... but one post pointing out how (insert cute girl) is an evil irredeemable monster and people fly out of the wood works.

 

Also you rebuffed my statement of fact with a statement of fact? (if it makes you feel any better I have changed it)

 

And I don't really like her by physical appearance, sure she got some things going for her but I'd prefer other characters such as Akame. I just didn't like how people said it was not possible and how she is beyond redemption.

I like Edese because of her past and how she is ( a monster some would say) and for me it's interesting to see how authors try to make villains into companions later on, because many failed hard trying to do so.

 

For further understanding why I like her. It's probably the gap between her behaviour towards "weaker" people and then how she is in front of Tatsumi. Or maybe I am some crazy masochist, but last time I checked

my body and soul, didn't like pain :/

Edited by NoboriRyu, 04 January 2014 - 12:24 PM.

[Pugnator]

For further understanding why I like her. It's probably the gap between her behaviour towards "weaker" people and then how she is in front of Tatsumi.

Gap moe is the main reason I like her. It also helps show she has a softer side and isn't really an irredimable monster. (although Tatsumi really needs to knock some sense into her)

 

Saying people only defend her due to her appearence seems a bit too generalist, since people have defended plenty of male or female characters before who started out as villains. For example, I actually really like Wham from Jojo's and he's a muscle hulk.

[Amakawa Yuuto]

I actually think even when Justice Girl was alive, she had far slimmer chances at "redemption" then Edese.

 

Why? Because she was trying to do the right thing. Edese isn't.

 

For JG to change, she would not only have to see clear proof that what she did was evil, but also accept it. And, given how out-of-touch with reality she was, chances are that she'd just write it of as an illusion. Besides, she had already reached the point were you were evil even if you were forced at gunpoint to do what you did. That's just one step away from being Kore from "Goblins: Life Through Their Eyes", who believes that merely meeting someone evil outside of battle makes you evil.

She'd never change, because she would have to change her entire world view along with it, accept that the things she did were wrong and the people she admired were evil. She wouldn't do that, at best, she'd go catatonic, at worst, she'd erase all proof of her being wrong.

 

Edese? Yes, she's evil. She isn't doing evil things because she serves the country, instead she serves the country because it allows her to do evil things. She tortures as a hobby. She keeps people alive just to get more fights out of them. If the country was peaceful, she'd be the first to attack it, just to get more battles and more deaths.

But in the end, this is all just her personal hobby. She holds no moral value up to it. All Edese has to do to stop being a crazy murder maniac is to find something that's more fun. It's unlikely, yes, but as someone pointed out, this is a shonen manga. Power of love and all.

If she finds out that she has to choose between the country and Tatsumi? I'd give it a 50/50 chance that she switches sides. Oh, she wouldn't be "good", but no one in Night Raid claims to be a good person (In fact, they clearly say what they're doing is nothing but murder). She'd just be fighting another enemy - instead of opposing the resistance, she'd crush, slaughter and torture country officials. And let's be honest, if she would choose to switch sides, the resistance would accept her instantly. She's far to powerful to not have her on your side if it can be helped at all.

Edited by Amakawa Yuuto, 20 January 2014 - 03:01 AM.

[truepurple]

They may say what they do is nothing but murder, but it isn't true. What is murder, it's the illegal killing of another human being, and government decided legality. 

 

In a way, night raid acts in the place of government, they put on trial and convict people of horrendous crimes, then execute them. Unlike the kingdom which doesn't really act like  government at all, Night raiders judge people fairly and reasonably and only kill people who they have not fairly sentenced to death in self defense/defense of others. So it couldn't be more false that what Night raider does is "nothing but murder"

 

Every single person Night raider has sentenced to death has indeed turned out the be the worst kind of scum imaginable, or working for the worst kind of scum imaginable, every single one of them. 

Edited by truepurple, 21 January 2014 - 04:46 AM.

[Amakawa Yuuto]

We haven't seen how many others like Wave there are. People who are generally nice, but simply ignorant of the corruption of the government, and/or who honestly believe the resistance is to blame for all problems.

So far, Night Raid hasn't gone against those people, but that's either out of luck or because the author doesn't dare to go there. What Night Raid does is indiscriminately kill people who pose a threat to the resistance or who assist the government, and luckily, these people generally happen to be scum. Still, I doubt Night Raid would hold back if a nice person assisted the government, which is why what they're doing is "murder" instead of "justice".

[svines85]

We haven't seen how many others like Wave there are. People who are generally nice, but simply ignorant of the corruption of the government, and/or who honestly believe the resistance is to blame for all problems.

Well, I certainly agree with you that Wave has been presented as more "contradictory" type character.......as you said, he comes off as "nice", with some amount of conscience regarding his and other's actions.........though I'd probably have to disagree about his being "Ignorant of the corruption" part.

 

Frankly, I'd say that's exactly why his character comes off as so contradictory (one of the "bad guys" but we know he's not as bad as many of his contemporaries). Most significantly before their first raid............he basically thought "I don't like this but I've got to do it out of loyalty". But that's just my view, a minor observation.   

[truepurple]

 

 

What Night Raid does is indiscriminately kill people who pose a threat to the resistance or who assist the government, and luckily, these people generally happen to be scum. 

 

So what comic have you been reading? Certainly not this one.

[bastek66]

Never gonna happen. Especially after Mein's death.

Can't wait for painful death of this monster in female skin.

Edited by bastek66, 23 January 2014 - 10:27 AM.

[mitojee]

The Terminator may be morally "neutral" because of his programming, but Edese cannot be claimed to be neutral. She has a rather primitive moral compass but nevertheless it exists--she admires strength. She also enjoys killing, so she is not neutral to harm, she perceives that she is gaining some kind of benefit from it. Even if she is doing it for the Empire, she is perceiving an abstracted benefit, hence, she, by definition, cannot be neutral. Someone who is truly neutral would not care if someone lived or died for any reason. If she thinks the "weak" should die, she has taken a moral side, and hence cannot be neutral. If she finds entertainment in fighting someone "strong", once again she has defined a moral framework--not neutral.

 

And even then, that presupposes a moral system where one believes that morality is only based on intent alone. Most moral frameworks, at least in the world of non-homicidal maniacs, generally perceive the participation and/or endorsement of mass homicide without even a hint of remorse to be at least a little bit "off" if not outright evil (dependent on exigencies such as acts of war, but again, torture and killing without very strong cause is generally considered...well, kind of a bad thing in most civilized society). 

 

As it is, she is attractive because she is drawn cute and is the pure form of the shounen demonic antagonist--a pure sociopath that has achieved a Zen like state of ammorality so pure that it may be attractive. She reminds me of the  camp commander Geoth from Schindler's List--handsome, feral and utterly without remorse. The mangaka may find a way to redeem her, but she still deserves a hangman's noose for all the crimes she has committed.

Well, I certainly agree with you that Wave has been presented as more "contradictory" type character.......as you said, he comes off as "nice", with some amount of conscience regarding his and other's actions.........though I'd probably have to disagree about his being "Ignorant of the corruption" part.

 

Frankly, I'd say that's exactly why his character comes off as so contradictory (one of the "bad guys" but we know he's not as bad as many of his contemporaries). Most significantly before their first raid............he basically thought "I don't like this but I've got to do it out of loyalty". But that's just my view, a minor observation.  

 

He is a classic foot soldier in any conflict. Many soldiers fight for their buddies, not for King and Country, in the heat of battle. The irony of war in a nutshell.  

[svines85]

He is a classic foot soldier in any conflict. Many soldiers fight for their buddies, not for King and Country, in the heat of battle. The irony of war in a nutshell.  

Yes, you're right. Actually, Bors (was it "Bors"? "Boris" the flamethrower teggu guy) was also (somewhat) presented in the same manner. In Wave's case, given how it's been presented, I keep wondering if we'll see him become more conflicted at some point and become a candidate for switching sides.....it's possible I think. 

[piegobbler]

I'm happy as lone as Leone survives... too many close calls with her T_T

[Dinara]

what are you discussing about? it's clearly tatsumi x akame in the end, see the title...

[svines85]

what are you discussing about? it's clearly tatsumi x akame in the end, see the title...

mmmm.......well, that is true. I've personally wondered exactly why she was THE title character given how diffuse the "main character" label could be considered in this one. 

[NoboriRyu]

She doesn't even play thaaaat big of a role until now. I don't think it is necessarily gonna end like that. The ending with no real pairing seems a lot more viable for authors nowadays...

[UnlimitedBlades]

Heh, I find it hilarious that people are trying to justify Edese's actions by PERSONAL morals, saying stuff like she has a broken moral compass etc etc. That's all sophistry ment to fool yourselves into thinking she's not as horrible as she is. Good and Evil isn't defined by what SOMEONE or an individual THINKS they are.

Hell, look at Hitler, he killed and tortured millions of Jews, is it OK just because he THOUGHT it was for the greater good? It's fine because he believied he was justified? Should Stalin's crimes be ignored just because he thought he was helping Russia? Good and Evil have real limits. What Edese does, killing, torturing enmass, and ENJOYING it is evil. It's plain and simple. It doesn't matter if she was raised in a village or whatever the hell. In fact, from what we seen in her village the influences where not even that big. A couple of phrases and a general way of life, nothing like the indoctrination that Akame and Kurome went through.

 

Well I'll admit that there could be SOME small allowances if she was brainwashed or doing it against her will, but that is NOT the case with Edese. She's not even under any real mental pressure or influence. She does evil because she likes it, and that's that.

 

Really though, it all comes down to Edese's hotness (And she IS hot!). If she was ugly this thread wouldn't have ever started in the first place because there would be no one supporting Edese x Tatsumi hahahahaha. Well no shame in likeing the hot ones. It's a fictional story after all. You don't have to feel guilty about likeing her to the point you have to establish elaberate deceptions to justify it. Heck I even like her! She makes great eye candy and has interesting interactions with the other characters. Also I won't feel bad when she gets off'd since she deserves it anyway. A great package all around.

Edited by UnlimitedBlades, 30 January 2014 - 08:50 PM.

[Verrueckter]

An interesting Tatsumi x Esdese scenario could be Night Raid getting wiped out, Esdese captures Tatsumi, who joins the Jaegers and shacks up with Esdese in order to survive. Almost plausible
since nobody in the Jaegers knows he is Incursio.

[truepurple]

What makes you think Tatsumi would consider that for a moment? After what has happened to him, with what he knows of the empire, and just his base personality in general- No fricken bloody way. Never, natta, not possible.

 

If Tatsumi wanted to survive, he could use the armor to go invisible and sneak off just about anywhere. Instead he has constantly put himself in great danger to protect everyone or stop the enemy. 

 

Tatsumi would fight to his last breath, it wouldn't matter if Night raid, the resistance, and anyone he's ever known or cared about was obliterated (in fact, that would just strengthen said resolve, I am sure Tatsumi would not want to live in such a world)

 

Some of these replies, you got to wonder how much certain people have even read of this comic, or if they have ever read it.

Edited by truepurple, 30 January 2014 - 10:40 PM.

[Verrueckter]

Hmm, if Tatsumi were captured(via Esdese's Time Stop spell, aka "Tatsumi Get!") and literally had to chose between execution and living with Esdese...I think he would choose to survive. I am
talking about what he would do in the No Win Scenario, so obviously I am grasping at straws.

[svines85]

Good and Evil isn't defined by what SOMEONE or an individual THINKS they are.

You're not actually serious, are you? Of course "good and evil" are defined by "SOMEONE"...........every culture/society/nation defines what is and isn't "right". It's a part of what's been discussed here........trust me, none of the opinions expressed here or elsewhere regarding "good and evil" are any more or less "hilarious" than yours. That's just how opinions work.   

[UnlimitedBlades]

Ouch, it looks like you read that one sentence of mine then ignored the rest of my post x.x; Of course, maybe you did understand because you promptly repeat exactly what I meant in your sentence. Good/evil are defined by culture/society/nation etc. No where in that did I see the word "individual" or "someone" in the context of one person's personal morals. You cannot truly claim that  Edese's actions aren't evil. You CAN make some lol argument that she has no moral compass and thus doesn't THINK of herself as evil, but then look back to my examples of Hitler, Stalin, any other mass murderer etc etc.

 

Just to reiterate my point one more time, just because it's someone's OPINION that rape and murder are OK doesn't make it GOOD. In Edese's point of view it's OK for her to get pleasure from torture and death, does that mean it's fine for her to torture and kill? Hmmmmmmm...........

 

Not that I don't believe in moral grey zones. They exist, but clear cut definition of good and evil in context to our societies also exists. If you believed that good and evil can be arbitrarily based off of what the individual person thinks about it, then Edese and the Ch 23.5 guys (The Dog rapist and etc) are the same, they both don't think what they are doing is "wrong". That's part of why I found it hilarious that people were trying to justify Edese's actions by saying it's all cool because Edese runs off of a different moral compass then the rest of society.

Edited by UnlimitedBlades, 31 January 2014 - 01:30 AM.