310 replies to this topic

[svines85]

 Tatsumi asked her once about her opinions on the current government and she said something like this, the strong has the right to rule and as such they can determine what is right.

 

 Should the balance change towards main characters side and they become the "Strong ones" i don't doubt she'd easily side with them, for that's what will keep her fighting, to Fight is her hobby and only passion.

Yup, that seems very reasonable and might well even be something that plays out in the story, we'll see. 

 

Besides, Esdese is just too hot to be evil  

 

[figureLP09]

My bet is that she'll die crying while a void-eyed Tatsumi finishes her off. And it WILL be fine.

[Bloody Sorcerer]

Saying this takes all wind out of your sails, if you believe this, then you haven't paid any attention at all. I don't need to bother refuting anything else you said with a statement like this. If I wanted to spend the time rereading the comic from the beginning, I could come up with many pages that directly contradict this claim, including the page where she stops and gives advice to professional tortures, torturing massive amounts of people at a time, on how better to torture said people to death using heat, cold, and water. I believe she even offers to torture her allie/s at one point (of course they decline)  But I am not going to spend that kind of time to refute such a bogus statement. Instead how about you prove your statement that Esedese isn't sadistic, if you can.

 

Someone said earlier the decision to bury hundreds of thousands of (non-soldier) people alive, came from the capital, not from Esdesese; that she was only following orders. (not that such would make her "neutral" in karmic alignment if it were the case) Can someone show me proof of this? 

Sure let me head to her personal chambers to collect some data. You guys are really funny, you ask for evidence in a manga, ok sir then have you seen a true sadist before? I assure you it's can see one just by the way he looks when hurting someone, Esdese has yet to show any visual signs, though as i said she will torture people if it brings more battles to be had, just like what she did to the rebels.

 

Also don't try to be a smart**s correcting others misspells, you should know well that, some times you press a key too lightly or type too fast and end up missing a letter or two, also, in the middle of all the words i've written, it would take Jotaro's(JoJo's Bizarre Adventure) perception levels, to be able to spot such a mistake when typing fast.

[TheHabeo]

I think the original Title is about how will Tatsumi and Esdese approach eachother at the end of the story. And I can only say 1 thing about it. A battle. You can't  hope to get away with some romantic shit here. People die for what they believe, especially in this manga where character died like flies.

When Tatsumi's belief contradicted that of Esdese, a battle is unavoidable. Maybe one will die, or maybe both (that in this case could happen since this author is approaching UroButcher level in this particular manga).

 

My opinion toward you judging who is evil and who is not: everyone has a different perspective, view about justice and evil, both in real life and in this manga. You can judge someone, but can't use it as an argument, because they don't look at the argument from the same perspective.

[bastek66]

Can't wait for that psychotic bitch' death.

[truepurple]

 have you seen a true sadist before? I assure you it's can see one just by the way he looks when hurting someone, Esdese has yet to show any visual signs, though as i said she will torture people if it brings more battles to be had, just like what she did to the rebels.

 

She causes pain for people, just to cause pain with no other reason, whether you see pleasure in her drawn eyes or not, that is the definition of a sadist.

 

Can't wait for that psychotic bitch' death.

 

You mean Esdese?

 

@TheHabeo

I don't know, seems like her and Tatsumi are still safe for now, even if they are heading into battle against each other.

Edited by truepurple, 13 October 2013 - 01:52 PM.

[Fujita]

Someone said earlier the decision to bury hundreds of thousands of (non-soldier) people alive, came from the capital, not from Esdesese; that she was only following orders. (not that such would make her "neutral" in karmic alignment if it were the case) Can someone show me proof of this? 

http://vatoto.com/read/_/118024/akame-ga-kill_v6_ch27_by_animum-mutare/19

 

There you have it.

 

Though like I've said... she's committed similar atrocities of her own volition, and seeing as she joined up with the Imperial Army to slaughter people, "just following orders" is an even worse rationalization in her case than it is in general. 

Sure let me head to her personal chambers to collect some data. You guys are really funny, you ask for evidence in a manga, ok sir then have you seen a true sadist before? I assure you it's can see one just by the way he looks when hurting someone, Esdese has yet to show any visual signs, though as i said she will torture people if it brings more battles to be had, just like what she did to the rebels.

 

I actually don't see how the manga could have made it any clearer that she's a complete sadist.

 

But maybe this compilation will help: http://i.imgur.com/a2DX7Fo.jpg

 

(Edit: Haha, I fail reading comprehension... first scene with the dragon, I think it's already dead and she's just smirking as she gouges out the eyes.)

 

    You all seem to Like protecting Seiryuu and saying Esdese is evil, but in all the info the autor gave about Esdese you forgot one simple truth.

Esdese is empty, neutral, she already said it before, she wants to use her strength and will follow any rule if it allows her to do it, she's anything but evil. All the killing and torturing is so she keeps on being called to the heavy work, she takes no pleasure in torturing, though she also has no other oppinion about it. The reason she commited so many war crimes is cause that's the way the world around her goes.

    Tatsumi asked her once about her opinions on the current government and she said something like this, the strong has the right to rule and as such they can determine what is right. Her fixation on such an ideal is completely related to the tragedis surrounding her village's demise and her father's last words.

    Should the balace change towards main characters side and they become the "Strong ones" i don't doubt she'd easily side with them, for that's what will keep her fighting, to Fight is her hobby and only passion.

 

Her philosophy is pretty simply "might makes right"

 

Though I'm... really not sure how you translate that into her not being evil. She's committed heinous acts, and for no purpose but enjoying them or furthering the Minister's despotic rule. "That's just the way the world works" indeed, but that doesn't make it right. And what's worse, is that she's not even committing said atrocities in the name of any noble end goal.

 

She joined the army to kill people, all but says it herself. Shit, even Admiral Akainu from One Piece is more understandable in this light than Esdese is; the man's a fanatic who butchers civilians, but seeing what some pirates are like you can't entirely dismiss his mission as evil, regardless of how he goes about it.

 

Her past? Yeah, that shaped who she is. But even before her tribe was slaughtered, her father thought she was wrong in the head. That environment only nurtured what was already there.

 

 

Now Seiryuu was created under the claims that evil should be punished  (which is a good thing), however the ones who taught her what's justice are the evil ones. She was raised to be a pet dog of the corrupt government viewing their enemies as evil, she learned to take pride in killing evil ones. A psychopath by all means, Justice girl is a created villain she is a victim of circunstances but also a unredeemable villain. If only she had been raised by normal parents...

 

You what mate

 

Let me get this straight: Seryuu is an evil psychopath... because... she thinks she's working for the good guys but is actually working for the bad guys? Whereas... Esdese... who is working for the bad guys and very much knows it... isn't evil.

 

Don't get me wrong, Seryuu is an evil psycho. But she's better than Esdese. But not as sexy, cool, badass, whatever-else-Edses-fans-like-about-her, so she's the Nena Trinity to Esdese's Ali Al-Saachez. Just to repeat my example from earlier.

Edited by Fujita, 14 October 2013 - 02:21 PM.

[figureLP09]

Are you people seriously trying to excuse her behavior? She might not be the only f@cked up person in this Manga, but she's the most f@cked up, by a loooooooooooooong distance. Even the emperor's advisor (The fat pig no reader gives a damn about) is just a greed-driven, power lusting retard. She ENJOYS maiming people, humilliating them, and prolonging their suffering. She's got the simplest, most instintive rationale of them all. "If they can't stop me, I can do whatever I want".

Just because she shows her boobs to a random kid (which she KIDNAPPED and FORCED to date her), and blushes every now and then, doesn't change the reality. She's the true antagonist.

[truepurple]

Plus she's carving wild girl like a living turkey dinner on the bogus premise that she is scientifically curious about the limits of her regeneration. Which may or may not have something to do with the uptick of people arguing my side of this.

Edited by truepurple, 14 October 2013 - 01:54 PM.

[Bloody Sorcerer]

Ok let me see if i got  it right. You thinks she's evil cause there's no true meaning for the things she does, am i right?

But that's precisely why i don't thinks shes's evil at all. As i stated before she's neutral, the loss of her hometown was not the what caused her to be corrupt i was the village itself. Her fathers beliefs, the way they've been raised, everything contributed to what she had become. 

 

Now, the Dog Rape people, the government, army officers, all of those who act on greed and envy, they are the ones whom are truly evil. To be able to feel and still to cause pain is far worse than to never have felt and cause pain.

 

Esdese never had the chance to live without killing and getting stronger to kill. She's been raised to murder, she studied corpses to learn how to be better at killing. Forget evil she never even had a chance to learn anything about morals. So sure i don't think someone whose completely ignorant of the "other side"(Normal people) way of living(rules, morals, compassion and any warm feelings) is evil.

 

What i can't understand is how you'd say "anyone" is better than Esdese, in this manga's world. Torture? Killing? not really evil depending on the circuntances or extremely evil on the same note. You judge her actions without considering everything about her. You defend people who act in a more common manner saying they're not that evil. Like one of you said is all a matter of perspective and that is the purpose in such a "gray" manga.

 

Ex.: Fujita that compilation of yours just proved my point even more.(just like i explained in this reply)

[figureLP09]

Dude, you do realize you're trying to excuse a blood knight, right? [email protected]. Her only reason for helping fatty is because she will get to kill again as long as he sends her to war, and because he lets her... What was it again? Oh yeah. F@CKING TORTURE PEOPLE TILL THEY'RE EITHER MAD OR HORRIBLY MUTILATED. Oh and in case you forgot, she kills them afterwards. Just for the lulz (And yes, that's the meaning to the things she does, she's not being forced to torture others, she clearly stated that she enjoys it, multiple times, like, really, many many many times).

 

Yeah, totally not evil. Not at all. I wonder when they'll hand her a Nobel? I guess Leone won't be the one giving it to her, since she CUT OFF HER ARMS OUT OF PURE CURIOSITY!

 

Besides, her village did nothing wrong, they just presented her a logical fact that she then distorted to her own twisted liking. If you're stronger than your prey, you win, then you get to eat it. If the prey is stronger, you lose, then it gets to eat you. For Tesla's sake, it was a village of hunters! What did you expect them to teach her? Economy?!

 

*sigh*

 

Nevermind, I don't know why am I even trying to convince you. And trust me, no one's saying she's the only evil character here, but you depict her as if she were like a misunderstood puppy or someone who is not in control of her actions. She is definitely NOT neutral. And stop derailing the conversation. We're talking about Esdese here, not about the other conga line of assholes in this manga.

[svines85]

Spoiler

Dude, you do realize you're trying to excuse a blood knight, right? [email protected]. Her only reason for helping fatty is because she will get to kill again as long as he sends her to war, and because he lets her... What was it again? Oh yeah. F@CKING TORTURE PEOPLE TILL THEY'RE EITHER MAD OR HORRIBLY MUTILATED. Oh and in case you forgot, she kills them afterwards. Just for the lulz (And yes, that's the meaning to the things she does, she's not being forced to torture others, she clearly stated that she enjoys it, multiple times, like, really, many many many times).

 

Yeah, totally not evil. Not at all. I wonder when they'll hand her a Nobel? I guess Leone won't be the one giving it to her, since she CUT OFF HER ARMS OUT OF PURE CURIOSITY!

 

Besides, her village did nothing wrong, they just presented her a logical fact that she then distorted to her own twisted liking. If you're stronger than your prey, you win, then you get to eat it. If the prey is stronger, you lose, then it gets to eat you. For Tesla's sake, it was a village of hunters! What did you expect them to teach her? Economy?!

 

*sigh*

 

Nevermind, I don't know why am I even trying to convince you. And trust me, no one's saying she's the only evil character here, but you depict her as if she were like a misunderstood puppy or someone who is not in control of her actions. She is definitely NOT neutral. And stop derailing the conversation. We're talking about Esdese here, not about the other conga line of assholes in this manga.

A "misunderstood puppy",  that's perfect actually, I was thinking about characterizing her along  the lines of one of those hot and cold tsundere characters from the school life mangas that just can't help but hurt the ones they love..............but I like yours way better. 

 

Yup, a retirement cottage in the country, white picket fence and everything for the future Mr and Mrs Tatsumi the Blacksmith..........Tatsume and Esdese, "Happily Ever After",  I've not a doubt in my mind.  

[figureLP09]

Whose side are you again? I'm like, well, pretty confused right now O.o

[svines85]

Whose side are you again? I'm like, well, pretty confused right now O.o

hahaha!! well tensions seemed to be running kind of high so i thought i'd inject a little levity into the discussion........after all this thread was really supposed to be about "Esdese & Tatsumi" as opposed to a debate about the "True Nature Of Evil". 

 

and I still like Esdese characterized as a "misunderstood puppy"..........so cute  

 

[figureLP09]

Well, we were talking about Esdese, though. Still, even if I'm a shipping freak, I can't see this boat setting sail anytime soon. Tatsumi outright hates her, and not hate like a "Tsundere" kind of hate. Totally pure boiling hate. And after what she did to big sis...

Still, dat Wave x Kurome tho.

 

BTW, that's the cutest pug I've seen on my life.

[svines85]

Haha, no, not likely, heck, apparently not likely  for anyone in the story, seems like the author is too fond of killing off characters to have time for any good romances to develop.  

[truepurple]

Svines point is good. This has consistently been about combat, any romance stronger then the alludes to it already made, are probably pretty unlikely till close to the end (which I think we are still a ways away from, unless the series got axed) But no way that is going to be Esdese. Though with that promise made with Sniper girl, (assuming it isn't evidence of her getting killed off like someone said) we might see something like a date chapter with some comedy and combat so to partially ruin the date and make us not take it too serious.  

 

Also they made lose potential romantic connections with a number of girls, as though this were a harem, but have consistently avoided the standbys of harems, like a bunch of girls drooling over him etc. And even in a proper harem where its given lots of attention, real romance between the MC and any one girl (even the obvious main interest) is largely avoided.

 

In Esdese's defense (as a turn of phrase rather then actual defense of her) she probably suspected someone was hiding and waiting, and partially cut up Wild girl to lure said person out (which worked) But I am sure she is also doing it for the fun too.

Edited by truepurple, 29 October 2013 - 04:28 PM.

[figureLP09]

Well, up till now, the girls who outright stated hints of feelings TO Tatsumi were Leone (The "marking" (No, she didn't piss on him xD)), Sniper girl (With the "I have to tell you something") and Esdese (She says it whenever she isn't flaying or maiming anything). Chelsea never gave him any lovey-dovey hint (us readers did get it though), and Schere was just trying to cheer him up a bit.

So, as potential romance connections properly said, we only lost Chelsea and Braht... Hey, it was still a chance.

Edited by figureLP09, 29 October 2013 - 10:06 PM.

[Bloody Sorcerer]

I'm sure there will be some more things on Esdese and Tatsumi pretty soon. Also, the way she acted on some of the latest chapters made me fell that there's a chance to break through her strange way of thought. She might not be that impossible to convince after all. Well let's see how things play out in the next chapter.

Dude, you do realize you're trying to excuse a blood knight, right? [email protected]. Her only reason for helping fatty is because she will get to kill again as long as he sends her to war, and because he lets her... What was it again? Oh yeah. F@CKING TORTURE PEOPLE TILL THEY'RE EITHER MAD OR HORRIBLY MUTILATED. Oh and in case you forgot, she kills them afterwards. Just for the lulz (And yes, that's the meaning to the things she does, she's not being forced to torture others, she clearly stated that she enjoys it, multiple times, like, really, many many many times).

 

Yeah, totally not evil. Not at all. I wonder when they'll hand her a Nobel? I guess Leone won't be the one giving it to her, since she CUT OFF HER ARMS OUT OF PURE CURIOSITY!

 

Besides, her village did nothing wrong, they just presented her a logical fact that she then distorted to her own twisted liking. If you're stronger than your prey, you win, then you get to eat it. If the prey is stronger, you lose, then it gets to eat you. For Tesla's sake, it was a village of hunters! What did you expect them to teach her? Economy?!

 

*sigh*

 

Nevermind, I don't know why am I even trying to convince you. And trust me, no one's saying she's the only evil character here, but you depict her as if she were like a misunderstood puppy or someone who is not in control of her actions. She is definitely NOT neutral. And stop derailing the conversation. We're talking about Esdese here, not about the other conga line of assholes in this manga.

Precisely, it's a village of hunters. That's what's wrong in it, you can't use knowledge learned from your hunting experiences to explain how things go in the world you live in. Just see how they've turned hunting into a sport in real life and you'll see how wrong it is to raise someone on those ideas.

Edited by Bloody Sorcerer, 23 November 2013 - 03:25 AM.

[figureLP09]

I'm sure there will be some more things on Esdese and Tatsumi pretty soon. Also, the way she acted on some of the latest chapters made me fell that there's a chance to break through her strange way of thought. She might not be that impossible to convince after all. Well let's see how things play out in the next chapter.

Precisely, it's a village of hunters. That's what's wrong in it, you can't use knowledge learned from your hunting experiences to explain how things go in the world you live in. Just see how they've turned hunting into a sport in real life and you'll see how wrong it is to raise someone on those ideas.

They hunted to make a living out of it, they ate the meat and sold everything else that they didn't need. It's not that they hunted just for sport.

 

And going back to topic, I think this ship is more sunk than the Titanic. There's no way that Tatsumi is going to forgive her for all the things she made, and now we can add Susano-O to that list. (Altough it can be justified if you think he tried to kill her and her VIP, but whatevs).