298 replies to this topic

[svines85]

Well, if you think the grandfather attempting 'twice' is the real issue, then you shouldn't be so quick to judge - we don't really know at this point what he was trying to do with Min-seong here.

You're right, we don't know what his true intentions are this time. And in all fairness the grandfather did seem confused as to why Min Seong was reacting so strongly......of course this is after the old man had come into the house unannounced and apparently drug a mentally challenged boy out of his home with no explanation at all. Soooo, right now, whether mr grandpa is going to take him to get a haircut or take him out behind the barn and shoot him in the back of the head, it's pretty darned hard to see him in a good light right now.

[Comadrin]

No kidding, and this "grandpa" scumbag isn't biologically related to him, and has no legal authority over him. If I was in Min-Seong's Mom's position, I would call the cops on my father, and have his nasty ass thrown in jail. He can claim it was for her sake until hell freezes over, and I will laugh evilly while he is passed around among the prisoners like a party favor.

[Passerby]

No kidding, and this "grandpa" scumbag isn't biologically related to him, and has no legal authority over him. If I was in Min-Seong's Mom's position, I would call the cops on my father, and have his nasty ass thrown in jail. He can claim it was for her sake until hell freezes over, and I will laugh evilly while he is passed around among the prisoners like a party favor.

You're right, we don't know what his true intentions are this time. And in all fairness the grandfather did seem confused as to why Min Seong was reacting so strongly......of course this is after the old man had come into the house unannounced and apparently drug a mentally challenged boy out of his home with no explanation at all. Soooo, right now, whether mr grandpa is going to take him to get a haircut or take him out behind the barn and shoot him in the back of the head, it's pretty darned hard to see him in a good light right now.

Perhaps that's the problem - a difference in the cultural understanding. The author and Korean readers would never think like that, because the old man is family, not a complete stranger. You don't report your father to police, nor would you assume right away that someone would do something harmful to his (step) grandson - at least not until his intention has been confirmed. But yeah, the author has done a good job of setting up the chapter so that the grandfather looks like he's trying again to do to Min-seong what he did years before, but I guess we'll have to see how things unfold in the next chapter.

Edited by Passerby, 11 September 2012 - 12:54 AM.

[Yaomo]

No kidding, and this "grandpa" scumbag isn't biologically related to him, and has no legal authority over him. If I was in Min-Seong's Mom's position, I would call the cops on my father, and have his nasty ass thrown in jail. He can claim it was for her sake until hell freezes over, and I will laugh evilly while he is passed around among the prisoners like a party favor.

i'd do the same. but unfortunately, trying to drag one's mentally handicapped grandson (biological or not) out of his house is rarely enough to get anyone in jail. especially not in lands where family matters are expected to be handled within the family, even if there's extreme violence going on. but i'd definitely threaten him with a deadly weapon, my kids are that much more important than my parents

[Passerby]

i'd do the same. but unfortunately, trying to drag one's mentally handicapped grandson (biological or not) out of his house is rarely enough to get anyone in jail. especially not in lands where family matters are expected to be handled within the family, even if there's extreme violence going on. but i'd definitely threaten him with a deadly weapon, my kids are that much more important than my parents

Wonder what your parents would think to that, to whom you must be the most important person than any other, you being their kid. I'm talking about general cases here, btw.

Edited by Passerby, 11 September 2012 - 11:18 AM.

[Yaomo]

Wonder what your parents would think to that, to whom you must be the most important person than any other, you being their kid. I'm talking about general cases here, btw.

if my parent threatens my child, i'd easily choose my child over my parent. me being their child gives them no right do do whatever they want to a child in my care. simple as that. if they're hurt by my rejection, it's their own fault for doing a child wrong in the first place

[Passerby]

I mean no offense, but that to me seems a rather simple and selfish approach to this complex matter that has no clear answers.

To even think of using deadly force on someone who gave you the biggest, selfless love you can possibly receive in defense of someone who's done nothing for you (even knowing that your parents are doing it for you), in return for nothing - for when your kids grow up, they'll turn their attention to their kids rather than reciprocating it to you. I wonder if it's the matter of being the possessed or the possessor - as we belong to our parents as their children in a sense, we 'own' our kids in the same sense, thus them becoming objects of protection even over our parents. Or maybe it's written in our genes to favour children over parents so that the species can perpetuate. Or maybe humans are made to love than be loved, even if that love is to remain unrequited.

But anyway, it's just an observation and I guess each to his/her own.

Edited by Passerby, 11 September 2012 - 02:12 PM.

[naphack]

It's not about genes.
Think about it logically. The parents are usually capable of fending for themselves, which doesn't necessarily apply to the children.
Between a possessive Jerkass who should be mature enough to survive without me and a helpless minor who is pretty much screwed without me, I'd always side with the weaker one, no matter what biological ties there might be.
That's all without even considering any empathy and emotional ties, just plain logic. The path of the least unhappiness, as to say.

Edited by naphack, 11 September 2012 - 05:01 PM.

[svines85]

Wow, poor dad, suckered by someone he thought was a friend, and for his family's savings no less. Poor guy, that's really gotta hurt.

[naphack]

the poor wife of that asshole friend of his...
Something like this can kill you!

[inzaratha]

Wow, this really is showing some of the lows of what people do. Actually the grandpa did come around to acceptance there.
Her poor dad being conned by someone they considered a friend, happens a lot. I used to be too nice too, for many years, then I learned.
And yeah, that con's wife will probably die now since she won't have any money to live on or for treatment.

[Purple Library Guy]

See, this is why socialized medicine is necessary (though obviously not sufficient) if you want to call your society "civilized".

I defend the dad's generosity. But I'll admit he's dumb. I mean, if one of my friends needed a loan I'd lend them money, few questions asked. But if you've known someone for a while, there are 'tells' on whether they can be trusted. You see how they deal with other people, you see what they do when they hit minor and medium sized troubles. With my friends, I know they'd never ever ask for a loan unless it was life and death, and they'd pay it back no matter what. They're honourable people. That's why they're my friends. I have a fair number of acquaintances too, who might be trustworthy but I don't really know for sure. Those folks I wouldn't lend to. The dad either lends to people he doesn't really know, which is dumb, or he doesn't grok what long acquaintance should have taught him about people, which is dumb. Or if not dumb--some people have bad instincts or something, they pick people badly. It's most obvious with girls and boyfriends--ever know a girl who's sweet and intelligent and attractive and consistently picks for boyfriends loser alcoholics who treat them like dirt? But it shows up in other contexts too. Dad seems kind of like that.

As to the grandpa--Oh, come on. Who are we trying to fool here? svines85 . . . "And in all fairness the grandfather did seem (my emphasis--PLG) confused as to why Min Seong was reacting so strongly" Didn't he though? Even though no matter what his intentions were, he obviously knew perfectly well why Min-Seong was reacting so strongly. I mean duh, "Last time I saw this kid alone I dragged him off and left him alone to rot. Now I'm dragging him off without telling him anything. Why oh why is he getting upset? I can't think of a reason!" Yeah, of course that's how the grandpa was thinking. Not. If he was acting like Min-Seong shouldn't be upset it's because he was in public and Min-Seong is actually too big and strong to manhandle if he gets stubborn and so he needed the kid to shut up and come quietly. Yes, no doubt if Da-Jeong hadn't showed up just then, his next line would have been some minimally plausible story about how he wasn't really going to do what he was obviously doing, but that would have been what anyone except Da-Jeong's dad or Min-Seong would have recognized as a lie.
I'm glad he repented. Now that he has repented, it is his daughter's duty to pretend to herself that he's not a complete a**hole, because after all he's her father. But, he is one. And OK, if I were Korean no doubt I wouldn't be doing the things Comadrin and Takayuki are contemplating, but that does not make them wrong, and Passerby I'm sorry but none of the stuff you've advanced makes what the grandpa did remotely ethical. If I'm a human at all I should acknowledge the duty of care we have to people who are helpless, such as Min-Seong. If I'm a father with an adult child it is right to want what's best for her but it is wrong to presume to decide for her what she should think is best when she has expressed strong opinions on the subject--and I really don't care whether Korean or Japanese traditions say that as an elder it's OK. Traditions of respect are one thing, traditions of control are ethically bankrupt. If my daughter says "I love person X, consider him my child, and intend to take care of him" then she has declared that her own good involves taking care of that person. To decide that I am the master and will define her good for her is vile, even if it does not involve dumping some poor kid in an alley to starve on the street. If it does, it's both deeply unethical treatment of my daughter and something along the lines of attempted murder of a helpless innocent. Traditions that say that's OK are much like traditions in the American South that said slavery was perfectly OK: Wrong. And clearly there is a strand of Korean opinion that agrees it's wrong or the cartoonist wouldn't be showing him getting righteously pwned by Da-Jeong.

In short, grandpa's a scumbucket, possibly in the process of reforming. Blinded to good and evil by his own arrogance.

Edited by Purple Library Guy, 12 September 2012 - 11:16 PM.

[svines85]

As to the grandpa--Oh, come on. Who are we trying to fool here? svines85 . . . "And in all fairness the grandfather did seem (my emphasis--PLG) confused as to why Min Seong was reacting so strongly" Didn't he though? Even though no matter what his intentions were, he obviously knew perfectly well why Min-Seong was reacting so strongly. I mean duh, "Last time I saw this kid alone I dragged him off and left him alone to rot. Now I'm dragging him off without telling him anything. Why oh why is he getting upset? I can't think of a reason!" Yeah, of course that's how the grandpa was thinking. Not.

Again.......In all fairness, you've kinda taken that one line out of the context of the rest of the discussion, too. Passerby, I believe, was making the point that a lot of comments being left might well not take into account the cultural differences from Korea to elsewhere. A perfectly valid observation, seems to me. I don't know myself, but it may well be that that's how ALL patriarchs in Korean families act. That's why I conceded the point that there could well be more to the situation.

Of course, the rest of my comment after your quote I thought made it pretty clear that, I at least, didn't think the old man's actions were reasonable (especially taking into account Min-Seong) in any culture or situation. And, this is a great, very well told story so far and the subject matter, the characters, the settings, are all tending to bring out some very emotional responses and viewpoints. So it's not that surprising there'd be some differences in point of view.

[Passerby]

Don't think you're very understanding of different cultural values, PLG - you say it, but I don't think you quite grasp the fact that it was drawn by a Korean guy with an intimate understanding of Korean cultural values and traditions, knowing fully well what kind of reaction it would generate from predominantly Korean readers; it's shallow to think what's involved here is just a matter of 'control' or some 'master-slave' relationship and despite how you package it, you're just expressing your opinion built on your own set of values influenced by culture and tradition that are probably vastly different from Korean or other similar Asian societies; and by discarding the grandpa's position completely as wrong and labelling it ethically bankrupt just show what limitations and prejudice you operate under, refusing to accept the possibilities of certain ways of thinking and moral values that stemmed from social pressures and circumstances beyond your experience or knowledge. But then it is your opinion, so I'll respect it and leave it at that, but I'd appreciate if you refrained from trying to shove it down other people's throats.

And no, I've never said what the old man has done in the past is 'ethical' nor do I even think that - but I did say it's understandable where he's coming from; I hope you understand what the distinction is.

Edited by Passerby, 13 September 2012 - 01:09 AM.

[Purple Library Guy]

Mm, and that in turn is your opinion.
To summarize my general opinion on such matters: Every culture in existence so far has injustices built into it in one way or another. Mine is no exception and I rail against it constantly. You think I'm harsh about this? You should hear me talk about capitalism and its cultural baggage. But none of these constructions are monolithic either; none of these unjust ideas is accepted as the air we breathe. Every culture has people who accept and internalize the injustice, and people who challenge it, even try to change it. In this particular case, grandpa's behaviour can be partly explained by the fact that he's drawing on, even pushed by, unjust attitudes which are mainstream in his society, but they cannot truly be excused by that. Other ideas were also available to him. He had the option of dissenting; other Koreans do, other Koreans within the comic do.

As to who it was drawn by--yeah, it was drawn by someone who set up a situation where we cheer for someone biting the grandpa hard and telling him "Whoever harasses or hates Min-Seong would the be person I despise most in the world". And where a couple of chapters previously, her comment "I've been taught only to respect elders who act their age, alright?" is pretty clearly a surrogate for the author's position. I don't think you can say the author is all pro-tradition, here. To the contrary, I think this webtoon represents precisely an act of resistance against traditional or common values which are ethically wrong or unjust. And the ideals of goodness and justice expressed are very intelligible, very much the same as ones expressed where I live although the obstacles to them may be different, because ethics, fairness and justice are not actually culturally relative.
People often imagine moral differences between cultures where they do not exist. A common example given is the widely different ways in which different cultures treat their dead, and how horrified they might be if you do to someone's dead relative what you would want done to yours. But these sorts of things are illusory differences--they don't spring from different values, but from different factual beliefs. The general rule is the same in each case--you do for them whatever it is the spiritual authorities want done, what gives them the best chance of a positive afterlife experience. If you think God wants someone buried in blessed ground, you do that; if you think Zoroaster wants the purifying flames to consume them, you do that instead, but the trappings are the difference, not the intent, which is to do what you can for your dead kin and to in some fashion celebrate their life.

[inzaratha]

The mom and Da Jeong accidently making contact and then both not telling the other girl who they are is difficult to, as I'm sure the step daughter will find out and probably be angry with both of them, but more with the mom when she finds out that she abandonned Da Jeong, but I find it curious that Da Jeong helped cover for her mother, when she hates her, so she must also have some mixed feelings for her still. It's sad, cause Da Jeong was put in the position of having to lie for her.

[svines85]

The mom and Da Jeong accidently making contact and then both not telling the other girl who they are is difficult to, as I'm sure the step daughter will find out and probably be angry with both of them, but more with the mom when she finds out that she abandonned Da Jeong, but I find it curious that Da Jeong helped cover for her mother, when she hates her, so she must also have some mixed feelings for her still. It's sad, cause Da Jeong was put in the position of having to lie for her.

You could be right, it could be that's she's covering for her, but I also think it might partly be that Da-Jeong is refusing to acknowledge her as her mother at all, no matter what. Seems to me that might be a pretty "human nature" kind of position to take from her point of view. She's got an awful lot of reasons to resent her given how things have turned out for the two seperate families.

Edited by svines85, 14 September 2012 - 02:29 AM.

[Purple Library Guy]

What both of you said, mooshed together like.
It's an interesting interaction all round. I mean first, not surprisingly, the mom does have some motherly feeling towards her daughter. We knew that, but it's shown in action, not just in regret. And second, Da-Jeong's first overt reaction is outrage. No doubt deep down there's a little bit of "mom came to my rescue" feelings. I think that's hinted at in her expression and blush when the mom first says "apologize to my daughter!" But at the surface it's overwhelmed by a combination of "Who do you think you are, you gave up the right to protect me!" and "Don't underestimate me, I coulda handled it myself!" kind of reaction. And arguably she actually could have--let's not forget, she's dealt with just that kind of guy before. OK, by crying loud and accusing them of heinous actions so the passersby and cops came to her rescue, but it worked.

Another point about the interaction--I don't think this is intended as a purely positive look at the mother. What hit me was that while she stood up for her daughter, kind of, it made me dislike her style. That the first thing she thought of, her instinctive reaction to trouble, was to use money, to me says something about her that's not so good. The point gets underlined a bit when Da-Jeong says "Though it probably doesn't matter much to you, since you look pretty well off . . ." Plus, she was protecting her daughter all right, but in a way Da-Jeong hated because it rewarded her attacker. I think that's part of the source of her negative reaction; Da-Jeong has a strong sense of retributive justice, even revenge. So I think she's partly like "Wait a minute, this bastard hit me and you're going to give him money for it? WTF?!" and if I'm right about this, well, as a moderately vengeful person myself I can see her point. I may be projecting here actually, there isn't a lot explicit to point to the whys of her reaction. But it feels right to me. I guess I'm getting it from Da-Jeong's yelling after the creep "Stop! You stop right there!"--she's obviously not happy with the outcome.

Now I wonder what the mom will tell Minseo. She may have to tell pretty much the whole truth. I mean, if she doesn't . . . Da-Jeong looks like she's nine, which would peg her I think as somehow born while mom was already married to Minseo's dad, which is (a) presumably not possible without someone noticing the pregnancy, but ( if it somehow was, some kind of cheating is implied. So better she comes clean about Da-Jeong's age, so as not to raise scandalous timeline questions. I suppose she could just fob her off with "I pretended she was my daughter so I could help her out of that situation better" though. Probably not smart in the longer term, but the kind of thing characters in this sort of thing do all the time.

[naphack]

Minseo probably figured out, her mom is the reason, Da-Jeong hates her. At least by now.
God. How I hate her mom's attitude. "There is a problem, so let's throw money at it till it ceases to exist!"

[svines85]

Minseo probably figured out, her mom is the reason, Da-Jeong hates her. At least by now.
God. How I hate her mom's attitude. "There is a problem, so let's throw money at it till it ceases to exist!"

yeah, i was kinda thinking the same thing myself, if anything would spark some (more) major resentment from Da-Jeong it would be having money to just throw at whatever problem popped up like what "mom" just did.