45 replies to this topic

[Saiko Scans]

If you don't have a word from a publisher, believe it or not, no scanlation group would come forward. No need to go to viz or likes right off the bat. Try talking to some "low end" publisher. Start off from that and if that is a success, big names might come for you. 

 

If you have a publisher or two backing you up, then I can say that some scanlation group might join you. Try talking to a simple, low end or new publisher(s) first. Something concrete from that conversation will definitely help you gain some support here.

[iazeru]

To be honest, I still don't get this xD Why do you need that I go to publishers first? This is a project meant for the community, so isn't it more logical to get your help first? XD In any case you will not have anything to lose even if you give me your support now and then no publishers accept our project °-°

Oh, please note that I will not expose scangroups in any way, you can rest assured! I will just say how many of you are interested in the project and want to collaborate right form the start. If they need more proofs, I'll just give them a 3 scans sample for each groups (you choose your own). If this wouldn't be enough, the negotiation just fails. Nothing complex nor dangerous, really xD

Edited by iazeru, 26 May 2016 - 02:12 PM.

[Saiko Scans]

The reason why I stress the point of going to Publishers first is... they will be the license providers lol. If they say "NO", all this time of talking to scanlators is a waste of time for everyone. 

 

For real, try talking to someone like DigitalManga or pick any of these.

 

If you just ask for support from community with nothing concrete, you'll just keep getting trolls/half-assed replies (like mine).

 

Most of the replies to this thread pointed out some problems with your business and asked some nice and important questions. Now that we all know that someone is interested in doing "this" thing, it's time for you to talk to the publishers a little and hit us with something that will be solid for all of us.

[iazeru]

Well, the idea is that after I have enough scangroups backing the project, they'll tell me a list of manga they translated or want to translate, then I'll go to the publishers for the licensing.

If I go to a publisher and he say yes, but then can't find anyone who want to translate their manga, then that's become a big credibility problem that can easily sink the entire project :/

Edited by iazeru, 26 May 2016 - 02:37 PM.

[Mrvirus]

Well, we would like to give you our support, but unfortunately we are a manhua group, plus we already made a deal like this with another so claimed publisher(but money was not involved though), but in the end they bailed out. 

 

Also how many group do you need as backup and how many have you gotten?

[Saiko Scans]

Well, the idea is that after I have enough scangroups backing the project, they'll tell me a list of manga they translated or want to translate, then I'll go to the publishers for the licensing.

If I go to a publisher and he say yes, but then can't find anyone who want to translate their manga, then that's become a big credibility problem that can easily sink the entire project :/

 

No, I am not saying to lay down the contracts right off the bat with the publishers. Tell them what you told us, give them info about your project and ask them if they will be willing to join with you.

 

The problem with "they'll tell me a list of manga they translated or want to translate, then I'll go to the publishers for the licensing." is that, groups might give you a list of something big project and the publisher might not like that. And hence, you project will fail before it will start, not good.

 

So, talk to publishers, if they say yes, ask them which series/projects they can provide the "license" to. Then, take that list and post here and see if any group is interested in those projects or not. IMO, that would be better.

[iazeru]

Well, we would like to give you our support, but unfortunately we are a manhua group, plus we already made a deal like this with another so claimed publisher(but money was not involved though), but in the end they bailed out. 
 
Also how many group do you need as backup and how many have you gotten?

Before going to the publishers, I would like to have the support of at least 30 scangroups and possibly a grand total of 250~300 potential manga.
As of today, I've contacted 24 scangroups:

• 5 ok
• 6 are willing to cooperate but aren't sure they will be still around when it start or want to see something concrete. (Saiko Scans, you are here xD)
• 5 said no, they either don't trust me, don't think the project is feasible and/or don't want to sell their work
• 8 haven't answered at all :/

The balance is negative xD But I'm positive, I know we can do this, damn!
Obviously I can't guarantee the project will be a success even if all the community give me its support, but I can guarantee I will work harder than anyone else to make this happen!
 
Talking about manhua, I plan to have them and manhwa too, but I'm focused on manga for now and still have to research the market, how to license them, etc...
That's said, if there's a good number of scangroups for manhua, then we can try conquering them from the start too!
 

No, I am not saying to lay down the contracts right off the bat with the publishers. Tell them what you told us, give them info about your project and ask them if they will be willing to join with you.
 
The problem with "they'll tell me a list of manga they translated or want to translate, then I'll go to the publishers for the licensing." is that, groups might give you a list of something big project and the publisher might not like that. And hence, you project will fail before it will start, not good.
 
So, talk to publishers, if they say yes, ask them which series/projects they can provide the "license" to. Then, take that list and post here and see if any group is interested in those projects or not. IMO, that would be better.

Yes, I don't think they'll just give me a contract without the concrete support, but that's not the problem. The real problem is a credibility one, because if they see I really haven't enough/any support in the community, even if I go to some other publisher, it will just laugh at me xD
Regarding the big names, well, I don't see the problem. We aren't forcing them to give us the licenses, they will choose what to do.

If we consider that the big titles are also the most pirated (aka scanlated even if already licensed), I think they will have more to gain than to lose giving us the licenses, but again, this will be up to them.

Edited by iazeru, 26 May 2016 - 03:53 PM.

[Doonge]

It's nice to have beautiful ideas, but a strong person is needed to manage them up until success.

 

What would be your strong point?

 

You code well and you provide excellent tools to scanlators?

 

You're an experienced negociator and you can bring in the series your scanlators want to work on?

 

 

 

Your writing in this thread isn't showing me anything. I have no proof of concept, and nothing impressive to baw at.

[iazeru]

It's nice to have beautiful ideas, but a strong person is needed to manage them up until success.

 

What would be your strong point?

 

You code well and you provide excellent tools to scanlators?

 

You're an experienced negociator and you can bring in the series your scanlators want to work on?

 

 

 

Your writing in this thread isn't showing me anything. I have no proof of concept, and nothing impressive to baw at.

 

Well, my writing on this thread should had showed that even if people around me say something is impossible, even if they call me a fool to pursue  this "dream", I'm still going on with a positive attitude and working hard to make it real. I think this is a proof of strong will?

 

I'm a good coder. I'm not the best out there, but I'm a perfectionist and anything I do, I give it all. I've learned all the latest technologies so that the final product would be as snappy and easy to use as possible.

I'm a lazy user, hence I came up with a nice flow that introduce the least amount of noise; anything you want to read is just a click away! There will be no ads or anything that isn't strictly necessary to the user.

 

I'm also thinking hard to give the best experience to scangroups. I think I've nailed it, but not sure because I've never done it. Again, I'm focusing on giving scanlator the same flow their used to and introduce the least amount of differences.

 

I will also be reactive to the community and after I've done a first prototype, I will seek the advice and opinion of all of you who want give it a try. I will listen to you and try to solve the eventual problems or nuisances as soon as possible.

Oh, I'm bad with graphics (color combination and the like), so the prototype wouldn't be so nice to the eye, but bare with it xD After all the processes is ok, I will hire someone to make it nice ^^

 

I'm not an experienced negotiator, but even if I'm not bad at it, I'm trying to find someone who could take this role.

I'm not a superhuman nor an Elon Musk. I'm not super at all xD I'm just the kind of man who work hard to achieve something, can manage stress and isn't easily shaken.

For example, when I built the prototype of the reader + all the bootstrapping stuffs, I woke up at 6 am, worked on it until 9 am, go to work and coding for another 8 hours straight, return home, eat and sleep at 10 pm already. Every single day, most weekends included. If you ever coded, this is a nightmare for the brain. But hey "no pain, no gain"!

 

Now I work at night (Timezone problems) trying to let people understand how damn good this project is. I'm also trying to enroll in some startup competition on my country and just yesterday I've done the business plan (worked on it until 4 am). I've found just two days ago a competition where subscription ends 31 May, so I'm working even harder in this days to make all the documents required XD

 

I'm also a problem solver at heart and if I'm well accustomed in the specific domain of a project, can usually come up with ideas to make it better! I'm also good at understanding people, their point of view; I think this is part of the problem solving skill.

 

So, all of this could be bullshit and I could be a liar, a slimy guy who just want to subjugate an entire world.

I totally get it if you (community) don't trust me, but the only thing I can say is: please, bring me to the test!

Edited by iazeru, 29 May 2016 - 12:02 PM.

[Doonge]

You have not understood what I said.

 

You seem to have a nice mind, but understand that you're just offering words.

 

In life, it's best when people don't need to have to trust you, or at the minimum (and you should not need to trust people too much either).

 

 

 

Furthermore (and building up), you ask for our trust, but why would we trust you? I'm not telling that you're a liar, I'm telling that "we" have no particular problem as of now, and you don't ask any real commitment from us. You won't pressure us into working some specific schedule, you won't ask us to work on series we don't want to work on. In other words, the trust we would grant you amount to no real commitment. It is not trust. There's nothing I see that we would be trusting to you.

 

Scanlators are a free bunch of people working-as-they-see-fit. They are not really reliable, and there's nothing binding us to you even if we give you our trust. Even with the word of some groups, you have nothing much to offer publishers. Sure, I could take no risk and offer you my "trust", but even if publishers can go past the potential disdain they hold for "pirates", they will know that this "trust" I gave you amounts to nothing much.

 

If there's money to be done with publisher approved scanlation, these publishers will build themselves the tools, not rely on third party. Naver / LINE / webtoons.com seems do be doing fine (but that's internet published comics, though publishers are putting more and more paper comics online aswell).

 

The very moment you succeed in your endeavor, that is breaking the wall between scanlators and publishers, the very moment you become redundant and kill your own business model. You will not retain your position as intermediary. From my perspective, it is not an argument against you as it is a cool situation to be in, but it's self-defeating for you.

Edited by Doonge, 29 May 2016 - 08:41 PM.

[iazeru]

I know that even if you tell me "ok", it wouldn't be anything really concrete, you could always take it back and just leave as you please. Trust truly shine when you don't have anything to lose, no concrete/legal obligation.

I mean, if you are obligated to do something, than there's no trust at all, just obligation, but I think a partnership build upon trust is much more better than one build on obligation. The first has a sincere reason to be with you, while the latter maybe have been forced to do so and he will probably try some way to break the deal in the future.

However I agree with you that "needing" trust should be avoided. Trust have to be gained and not requested, but I should say this is a peculiar case.

I would prefer to tell you I have already talked to publishers, but unfortunately I can't do that, this have to be the first step. The chance of success with the publishers wouldn't be high even with the scagroups' support and we have just one shot, I can't low it even more.

I hope that when I'll finish a prototype of the platform, it would be enough to gain a little more trust, but it will take at least another one or two months. I can't really think about to anything else of concrete I could show you, any suggestions is appreciated!

Furthermore take in mind that I'm not asking nothing much, just if you like it, if you want it to be real and then join the adventure when the times come!

It's like: "Are you good with the idea? Great, just seat there, the rest is on me!" Is this really too much to ask?

 

 

Regarding the redundant business model, maybe you are right, but I think it will not be the case. Managing a platform require resources, time and fast decisions, plus if a publishers do their own, can't really take on board other publishers and this means that all publishers should build their own and users will just scatters. Nobody will benefit from such a system. I also don't think they would give total freedom to scangroups because big corporations are just like that, control maniacs.

There's lots and lots of reason why is better for them to outsource a platform like this, especially if I can do it better than them

But hey, even if at the end you are right and they cut me off, as long as the community will benefit from the system, it's still cool! I'm trying to build it because I want to use it, plus it will be a proof of how great this idea is!

[Doonge]

If you're just asking whether or not you idea seems cool in theory, then yeah I guess - your main selling point to me is the "legality" aspect. Be prepared to suffer from piracy however, like every corporations you decry.

 

I'll have a look at your platform once you will release it, as I'm curious anyway.

 

Keep in mind that users scattering is not really a minus in the scenario you gave with publishers setting up their own platforms. Users (scanlators) naturally scatter... around projects/genres they work on. Even if your platform regroup all scanlators, it doesn't say jack about how fast any particular new comic will be worked on. Centralizing userbase changes nothing in that regard. As I see it, currently readers can become scanlators on any project simply by reading on any aggregator and checking the credits to know how to contact the scanlation group.

 

Also, about freedom, you should check Naver/LINE/Webtoons.com stuff. They simply present the "scanlator" work they publish as fanmade content (and not official content), and they don't really put any pressure.

You insist greatly on "harmony" and fluff like that in your presentation, but that is caricaturing corporations and being very optimist about the constraints you yourself will face.

[iazeru]

If you're just asking whether or not you idea seems cool in theory, then yeah I guess - your main selling point to me is the "legality" aspect. Be prepared to suffer from piracy however, like every corporations you decry.

Yes, as I've already said in some other post, it's naïve to think this project could remove all piracy in the manga industry, but I think it will be a better counter measure than C&D and stuffs like that, because instead of repress, it will renders piracy much less necessary and tempting.
 

I'll have a look at your platform once you will release it, as I'm curious anyway.

Thank you ^^
 

Keep in mind that users scattering is not really a minus in the scenario you gave with publishers setting up their own platforms. Users (scanlators) naturally scatter... around projects/genres they work on. Even if your platform regroup all scanlators, it doesn't say jack about how fast any particular new comic will be worked on. Centralizing userbase changes nothing in that regard. As I see it, currently readers can become scanlators on any project simply by reading on any aggregator and checking the credits to know how to contact the scanlation group.

No, I wasn't referring to scanlators, but users. If the history of internet have taught us something, it is that users are lazy xD That's why aggregators have so much success.
Plus, I will not be surprised if some publishers will give a constraint like "you can't work on other platforms".
 

Also, about freedom, you should check Naver/LINE/Webtoons.com stuff. They simply present the "scanlator" work they publish as fanmade content (and not official content), and they don't really put any pressure.

Yep, I already know LINE/Webtoons, they've done a nice job with the app and the site, I like it! I think they are the strongest competitor on the long run and in fact included them in the Business Plan xD However the model is different. They aim to self-publishing and they pay only a small % of authors, while this project aims to:

• Give already established publishers a way to become global and also stems piracy
• Give scanlators the merit they deserve and let them share their passion in a legal way
• Give users a way to stay up to date with the latest realease of a Manga in a legal way

You insist greatly on "harmony" and fluff like that in your presentation, but that is caricaturing corporations and being very optimist about the constraints you yourself will face.

I know this can seems "fluff", but it's not. In a system like this, harmony between the three partners is fundamental. In my opinion that's the main failure cause of all the previous attempts. Plus it's not only optimism, I know there's a big chance publishers would want to constraints scanlators, but I will never accept this. If I can't convince them, then the deal just fails because the entire project will fail anyway if there isn't freedom for scanlators!

What I'm confident about is that they will understand the whole picture

Edited by iazeru, 01 June 2016 - 01:30 PM.

[iazeru]

Hi guys, I tried to make the first post more "digestible". What do you think? xD

[cmertb]

The idea is understandable.

 

If you manage to kick this off, it'll be a triumph of optimism over experience.

 

If you manage to make it succeed, the world will end.

[iazeru]

Well, I suppose the world will end sooner than many scientists have previously thought xD

 

Jokes apart, why do you think it is impossible? What do you think would be the contribution of more experience? Or perhaps do you mean that with more experience this project would never start because deemed impossible?

 

Anything is impossible until somebody don't do it

Edited by iazeru, 07 June 2016 - 08:13 AM.

[cmertb]

But people have done this before. That experience was less than successful. I don't really see what you're going to do differently.

 

Personally, I don't think there's simply enough revenue in manga to pay everyone as much as they think they should get. Someone will need to get cut out of the deal, and they won't like it. That's the overarching strategic issue. The other blocking tactical issues you'd be facing aren't worthy of discussing in light of this.

[iazeru]

But people have done this before. That experience was less than successful. I don't really see what you're going to do differently.

I answered to this question in the main post already xD

 

Because I learn from the errors of others. I've researched and studied the previous attempts, namely: JManga, MangaHelper and MangaReborn. There's also the Digital Manga Guild, but it's business model is awful, expect for the crowdfunding part. I know also a new guy, Rakuten Manga, but again, I don't think any scangroup sane of mind will chain themselves to it.
JManga: they got right the company thing and had people already deep in the business, but even if they got 36 publishers right from the start, they failed nonetheless. Why that? I think the first error was the price too high, next the inability to legitimately download what you bought + limited accessibility (online reader and android app only) and last but not least, they haven't keep the initial promises.
MangaHelper: awful execution. They lose on both fronts: publishers & community. Publishers repel them because they were "pirates", while they backstabbed the community and lose the majority of its support.
MangaReborn: another poor execution. From what I know, they haven't sought the community's favor and the business model regarding translator isn't clear at all.
And there is also a common error for them all: they tried to distort scanlation. From what I know, all of the above consider the figure of "translator" and not "scangroup", plus they were seen more like a bunch of freelancer to hire instead of important collaborators. That's the main difference.
I'm here exactly because I fully understand the importance of community and that's why I want to tailor made the project around it.

Isn't this enough for you?
 

Personally, I don't think there's simply enough revenue in manga to pay everyone as much as they think they should get. Someone will need to get cut out of the deal, and they won't like it. That's the overarching strategic issue. The other blocking tactical issues you'd be facing aren't worthy of discussing in light of this.

Obviously this project can't make everyone happy, but I think it will make lots of people happier! So, what are the others "blocking tactical issues"?

[cmertb]

No, unfortunately it isn't enough. I don't think your analysis on the previous failures is correct. Like I pointed out, the main issue is simply insufficient revenue from legit manga to satisfy all relevant players. You aren't addressing it. Note that making "lots of people happier" misses the point -- in order for the system to function, all of its parts needs to be happy with the arrangement, not just some.

 

If you would just model how much revenue you can realistically collect, and how you would split it up between all the players (i.e. how much each would end up being paid in hard currency), I think you would also come out disheartened.

 

Anyway, in spite of what I say, I hope you will try it out. I'm very interested in finding out how it will play out, even if I'm pessimistic about the eventual outcome.

[iazeru]

No, unfortunately it isn't enough. I don't think your analysis on the previous failures is correct. Like I pointed out, the main issue is simply insufficient revenue from legit manga to satisfy all relevant players. You aren't addressing it.

If we consider how many people read manga and are passionate about it, I think in the long run would be enough revenues to satisfy all the partners For example, a site like MangaFox.me has more than 20 millions views each month! Webtoons.com have more than 17 millions active users per month.
The only problem here aren't users, but publishers. IF I convince the big publishers, then I'm very, very confident the project will be a success. All the steps are focused on that single point: maximize the chances that big publishers will join. I hope I can get one if not from day one, at least in 5 months after the launch.
I know this is the critical point: without a good manga pool, users will not come because they haven't nothing interesting to read :/
 

Note that making "lots of people happier" misses the point -- in order for the system to function, all of its parts needs to be happy with the arrangement, not just some.

If you would just model how much revenue you can realistically collect, and how you would split it up between all the players (i.e. how much each would end up being paid in hard currency), I think you would also come out disheartened.

What I meant was that other western publishers will not be happy with this project, and probably other people who do this "professionally" too, because they don't really like to be paid after the work and based on its sales. I know that's a big malus, but that's also why scangroups will have total freedom ^^

Another group of people who will not be so happy will be the real pirates: leechers and who runs aggregators for money.

On the other hand, I'm fully committed to make happy everyone involved in the project, that's for sure! I think users will be happy to have a fully legal way to follow their favorite manga :3

Regarding scangroups, let's say at some point we net 10 millions active users who follow 1 weekly manga on average (underrate). Each chap is 0.5€, so the gross monthly revenue will be (10M * 4 * 0.5) € = 20M €. Let's say that a scangroup is good enough to fetch only 1% of all sales, that's 200k €. Let's say the group earn only 20% (I hope this will be higher, but this is the least I can guarantee right now): 200k * 0.2 = 40k €/month. They will have to share it among members, but I suppose it will be enough to make all of them happy, isn't it? ^^
Obviously it will not be so easy in the first years, but hey, Rome was not built in a day!
 

Anyway, in spite of what I say, I hope you will try it out. I'm very interested in finding out how it will play out, even if I'm pessimistic about the eventual outcome.

 

That's unexpected xD I see you are a contributor, any chance will you give me your direct support? :3