34 replies to this topic

[svines85]

My my~ if you knew it so well then why are you okay with scanlating it when I said that a lot of people who make djs have rules on what you can do with the copy you bought. Because it doesn't look like you're quite informed on the issue. In fact, you're all dodging the issue and not really caring about someone who spends their own money to produce these djs. It's really fun to read how upset these artists are on their blogs about how no one listens to them or bothered to ask for permission if anyone could do anything to what they made.

 

Thanks for bringing up a two year old thread that obviously reflects how we should treat people like absolute garbage and disregard their wishes.

 

Sorta reminds me of what other hosting sites treat scanlators as. Funny!

Spoiler

 

 

 

Legitimate mankagas are backed by a company. They have licensing and other things to protect them. 

 

Doujinkas do not.

 

I am quite aware of what they are doing and so are a lot of the companies in Japan but many of them like fanworks as it helps to create a larger fandom and attract a potential audience.

 

These people barely make a profit when making djs and tend to only cut even or stay in the red. The average dj tends to cost around $10 and production costs tend to be about $5-7 per book. Wow a lot of profit! Not really because unsold djs will still lie about and there is to take into account the time they spent drawing and drafting the story, as well as traveling, advertising so more people know.

 

Amazing! Batoto can support individual scanlation groups but doesn't seem to care about artists! Really? How hard is it for a scanlation group to contact an artist and ask if they can scanlate it. It's only decency you do as such. It's easier for you to find the artist than to have someone report to said artist you took their work and did everything without permission. You even have a translator who can talk to the artist.

 

I only pulled up mf because they treat scanlators how scanlation groups tend to treat doujinkas. And don't pull that whole "we don't make money." I'm referring to the decency to respect the wishes of others and ask for permission to do stuff.

 

In all honesty, I'm only asking that individual artists with no financial backing from companies have their work taken down and are unaware of what's happening. Is it that hard to ask? Like you're harming an individual but all you're bringing up is copyright and how they should be punished for trying to share what they love. That's really messed up.

 

Isn't it obvious I'm "okay with scanlating" when I'm (all of us, you too) are discussing the topic on a composite reader site of fan scanlated comics? This has not even one thing to do with "not quite informed" as you seem insistent on judging everyone else, it's that I just don't agree with you. I tried to tell you that you were coming off as a snotty sounding know-it-all, but you just don't seem willing to back off, do you?

 

You're the one I can't figure out, saying "this is good" but "this is bad", which you are tacitly doing by saying "no doujinshi" instead of "no scanlations".

 

You seem to be under the misconception that the fact that comic "A" only had 100 copies printed makes it (in the context of this discussion) somehow different than comic "B" that had 100,000 copies printed. I don't see it, not at all. Of course, I'm not trying to claim any of it is "right".

 

And, two-year-old thread or not, it's still renders this discussion moot.  

[dark.chii]

Isn't it obvious I'm "okay with scanlating" when I'm (all of us, you too) are discussing the topic on a composite reader site of fan scanlated comics? This has not even one thing to do with "not quite informed" as you seem insistent on judging everyone else, it's that I just don't agree with you. I tried to tell you that you were coming off as a snotty sounding know-it-all, but you just don't seem willing to back off, do you?

 

You're the one I can't figure out, saying "this is good" but "this is bad", which you are tacitly doing by saying "no doujinshi" instead of "no scanlations".

 

You seem to be under the misconception that the fact that comic "A" only had 100 copies printed makes it (in the context of this discussion) somehow different than comic "B" that had 100,000 copies printed. I don't see it, not at all. Of course, I'm not trying to claim any of it is "right".

 

And, two-year-old thread or not, it's still renders this discussion moot.  

 

I keep repeating my points so often and you either still choose not to understand or can't understand. Putting doujinshi and comics in the same place hurts me almost physically. From your replies I assume you do not have any artist friends nor are you part of the doujinshi scene nor had been in contact with doujinkas and really don't know about the topic at all (hence why you say things like that).

 

Old threads and older statements aside, I still want to see you reply directly to the points I mentioned and not just evade it with "they are all the same", they are not. Go back to the first page and reread what I said. I am aware I might come across as arrogant, but to me you seem to really don't know about artists (and the problems they face at all), the difference between "public" people and "private" people (and also difference between public content and private content). And do not brush me off here, I believe I raised valid points that should be considered. 

 

(Before anyone makes the doujinshi = comics comparison again, the latter are paid......................)

 

(Linking to an old thread and wanting the discussion to die in a "god said so and that is final" is really cheap)

[Chocolate Chip]

Yeah, it's actually not "cheap" to point out that your question has already been answered, even though the answer is not one that you like.

 

Personally, I think you've got a lot of good points, but they're pretty well lost in your holier-than-thou, "anyone who disagrees with me is wrong and doesn't know anything about doujinshi and also hates art" attitude, combined with deliberate misrepresentations such as doujinshi events and shops as being these quiet, underground, places that nobody really knows about. If you want to change site policy, saying, "Ban all doujinshi because I have reasons," is really not the best way to go about it. A well-reasoned argument without exaggerations and leaning on the "but copyright!" claim (which on a site like this, is frankly ridiculous) will do just fine. Maybe Grumpy will change his mind. Maybe he won't.

 

And I'm sorry if I come across as overly confrontational to you; recently, an anti-scan person or group of persons went on a self-styled "crusade" against a specific scanlation group who was only sharing doujinshi privately, and got them into a lot of trouble. So, your timing is bad and a little suspect. I can respect the opinions of people on both sides of the issue*, but I can't respect a dirty move like that. (*Provided the opinion is not "doujinshi is bad because GAY", which is how it usually goes around here. Which is also why your first post didn't go over so well with some people.)

[Glave]

@charming lunacy if people just want to share what they love, in this case a doujinshi, they could just upload it into the internet which is free or at least very cheap alternative, rather than going through then hassle of making copies, selling stuff they shouldn't, going against the law and investimg money on it. But i guess you're inclined to see only the beautiful aspect of doujinka, that is they are a such a hardworking fan that only want to share what they love. Such a innocent little snowflake you are. As to why i mentions law and copyright in my previous post is that because that's how the world works. And if you fail to comprehend that........well i guess reality will slap you right in the feels sooner or later at one point of your life.

And please, don't bias your attitude acoording to whether this side has more money and that side has less money. That's double standard. I wonder what your reaction would be if all the doujinka are actually rich people. Maybe you wouldn't care at all whether people distribute their works without their consent, because they're financially backed up.

@dark.chii what are you saying dude? Though there's doujinshi that's distributed for free, most of doujinshi are actually paid too.

[dark.chii]

Yeah, it's actually not "cheap" to point out that your question has already been answered, even though the answer is not one that you like. [1]

 

Personally, I think you've got a lot of good points, but they're pretty well lost in your holier-than-thou, "anyone who disagrees with me is wrong and doesn't know anything about doujinshi and also hates art" attitude, combined with deliberate misrepresentations such as doujinshi events and shops as being these quiet, underground, places that nobody really knows about. If you want to change site policy, saying, "Ban all doujinshi because I have reasons," is really not the best way to go about it. A well-reasoned argument without exaggerations and leaning on the "but copyright!" claim (which on a site like this, is frankly ridiculous) will do just fine. [2] Maybe Grumpy will change his mind. Maybe he won't.

 

And I'm sorry if I come across as overly confrontational to you; recently, an anti-scan person or group of persons went on a self-styled "crusade" against a specific scanlation group who was only sharing doujinshi privately, and got them into a lot of trouble. So, your timing is bad and a little suspect. I can respect the opinions of people on both sides of the issue*, but I can't respect a dirty move like that. (*Provided the opinion is not "doujinshi is bad because GAY", which is how it usually goes around here. Which is also why your first post didn't go over so well with some people.) [3]

 

[1] it is cheap because you are basically saying or implying the answer to everything I said can be found in an old thread (it can't, I looked at it)

 

[2] If I wanted to be condescending, I would sound a lot less polite, but I am not (or at least don't think so.. I believe I have been fairly neutral-sounding so far on most times). I admitted so often that there are different views and that I understand them, why would you think I have a 'holier than thou' attitude? It is true, at some points I really do sound like that, however these few points, I believe they are true and a fact.

 

I can go on and on about doujinshi and all that stuff, but I know that there are many people who will react like you (and/or know less than you, or be less willing to listen to me) that I do not talk even more than I already do.

 

[3] there are two things I know, (1) my first post was indeed very vague but because (2) I expected the replies and reactions that followed (though they are more that I expected/hoped). And I do not mind confrontations, as long as solid arguments are provided, however the general reaction so far has been very avoiding and dodging the issues, including yours, if the length of our replies are any indication (why do my replies end up much longer than most others....).

 

And I personally feel you are acting very suspect - unless you have access to my mind and thoughts somehow, you cannot accuse me of any dirty motives (you can suspect me of having any, but keep your suspicions to yourself until I do something that confirms/denies your suspicions). You talk of me having a 'holier-than-thou' attitude, however you being so defensive and protective of someone else and confronting me because of them, does this not lower your credibility? By saying this here you sound as if you only argue against me because of some grudge. I can assure you, my problems with this issue is not because of a personal grudge against some group or whatever, I genuinely feel that doujinshi should stay in private corners of the net.

 

@charming lunacy if people just want to share what they love, in this case a doujinshi, they could just upload it into the internet which is free or at least very cheap alternative, rather than going through then hassle of making copies, selling stuff they shouldn't, going against the law and investimg money on it. But i guess you're inclined to see only the beautiful aspect of doujinka, that is they are a such a hardworking fan that only want to share what they love. Such a innocent little snowflake you are. As to why i mentions law and copyright in my previous post is that because that's how the world works. And if you fail to comprehend that........well i guess reality will slap you right in the feels sooner or later at one point of your life.

And please, don't bias your attitude acoording to whether this side has more money and that side has less money. That's double standard. I wonder what your reaction would be if all the doujinka are actually rich people. Maybe you wouldn't care at all whether people distribute their works without their consent, because they're financially backed up.

@dark.chii what are you saying dude? Though there's doujinshi that's distributed for free, most of doujinshi are actually paid too.

 

I will say again: scanlations is indeed a gray area, and preaching of rights and morals etc seems like a double standard. 

 

However, will you say unconditionally yes to scanlation (and piracy, because it is a form of it)? Because there are no absolute rights or wrongs, it is difficult to differentiate between what you can/should and cannot/should not do. (any written literature is allowed to be distributed illegally, while anything that is drawn is forbidden of being distributed illegally < this would be an absurd example and obviously does not work)

 

Suppose there is this manga available in your region. Would you still read scanlations of it on the internet? And if yes, would you still buy it in your region (or somehow) if you end up liking it? (fun fact, I noticed a lot of my male acquaintances would say yes to the first, but no to the second, while my female friends would say yes to the second. But I digress)

 

I am only reading scanlations because they are not available where I live, and if I know it is good, I will buy it. Publishers might look at scanlations (or the popularity of them) to think about which titles to license. However, if they cannot be bought and no publisher can license them, why put them here then? They are no better than 'ordinary' pirated goods.

 

'Ordinary' pirated good sounds hypocritical or odd, but please think about it. There is no reason to pirate something that is available in your region (assuming you live in America, and some artist releases a new album that you like and you can buy it - why would you pirate it with a good conscience?). If you like a manga, you can search the title or the mangaka and you get a lot of results, among them websites or ways you can buy them. You can't do the same with doujinshis, for reasons I named before. (Good luck finding doujinka and the doujinshis with translated names and then finding websites that still sell them)

(I am not saying you must not pirate something you have access to, however I do not think you should be able to nor do it with a good conscience.)

 

There is no stopping piracy and I am not aiming for that, however I do want people to have some sort of moral compass which tells them what they can/should do and not. And to me, I do not think hosting doujinshis out in the open like this is something that is acceptable. There are a lot of cons and events in other countries as well where amateur artists draw comics and sell them, does anyone ever think of scanlating those? (rhetorical question, don't answer)

Unless the artists themselves upload them here (or permit someone to do it), I do not think it is morally acceptable (for a number of reasons I named before, again).

 

And if you are someone who shares either the "scanlating mangas and doujinshi is the same" or "it's hosted for free, no damage is done" mentality, please do not talk to me. I already explained myself and I also said why I disagreed with those two mentalities, and this sounds very arrogant, I apologize, but I just do not want to repeat myself anymore. If you disagree with me I would appreciate constructive arguments that do not dodge the points I mentioned.

 

edit: I noticed I may have forgotten some replies. I am sorry if I did

Edited by dark.chii, 12 July 2014 - 01:08 PM.

[Führer Itulhu]

Spoiler

[9:34:54 PM] ITANOZARD: someone wants doujinshi banned on batoto

[9:35:03 PM] ITANOZARD: i like reading these comments

[9:35:11 PM] Archshot: Lul, as if.

[9:35:38 PM] Soul: what. doujinshi is often really good.

[9:35:45 PM] Soul: or at least interesting

[9:35:58 PM] ITANOZARD: https://vatoto.com/forums/topic/19267-ban-doujinshi-uploads/

[9:36:01 PM] Archshot: Touhou doujins are the best.

[9:36:04 PM] ITANOZARD: yes

[9:36:21 PM] ITANOZARD: but all i get is he is pulling the whole illeagal thing over and over

[9:36:41 PM] ITANOZARD: ignoring all the points shooting him down

[9:36:43 PM] Archshot: People on the internet caring about things being illegal?

[9:36:47 PM] Archshot: Loooool.

[9:36:54 PM] Archshot: Yeah. That'll happen.

[9:36:56 PM] ITANOZARD: on a manga hosting site to ad

[9:36:58 PM] Soul: the illegal thing in which batoto probably operates on completely?

[9:37:05 PM] ITANOZARD: exactly

[9:37:08 PM] ITANOZARD: read it thou

[9:37:27 PM] ITANOZARD: though i admit he has 1 or 2 points i think 

[9:38:19 PM] Soul: as if people who read manga purchase a copy of every volume they read

[9:38:33 PM] Soul: i'd probably be in debt for 20 years or more if that were the case

[9:38:39 PM] Soul: don't tell anyone.

[9:38:39 PM] ITANOZARD: yea

[9:38:48 PM] ITANOZARD: i only own like 3 series

[9:38:49 PM] ITANOZARD: or 4

[9:40:31 PM] Soul: i cannot agree with the person's logic.

[9:40:46 PM] ITANOZARD: it is flawed in every way

[9:40:47 PM] Soul: go to japan, find the creator and purchase it.

[9:40:50 PM] Soul: simple as that.

[9:40:56 PM] Soul: or just give them money

[9:40:57 PM] ITANOZARD: and the whole

[9:41:02 PM] ITANOZARD: 'it is illegal'

[9:41:06 PM] ITANOZARD: BWAHAHAHAHA

[9:41:15 PM] Archshot: He's trying to get people on the internet to care about things being illegal. His logic was flawed from the start.

[9:41:29 PM] ITANOZARD: that needs to be a comment

[9:41:46 PM] Archshot: You have a batoto account, post this convo there.

[9:42:18 PM] ITANOZARD: lul

[9:42:31 PM] Archshot: Then link us to the post when you do.

[9:43:04 PM] ITANOZARD: the convo staring from here?: [9:36 PM] Archshot: 

[9:43:35 PM] Archshot: [9:34 PM] ITANOZARD: 

[9:44:09 PM] ITANOZARD: kk

[9:45:03 PM] ITANOZARD: this guy does know that doujinshi can be origional work as well thou right?

[9:45:07 PM] ITANOZARD: RIGHT?

[9:45:37 PM] Archshot: I don't even know. I think it was pointed out, but I didn't even finish the first page of that thread.

[9:46:25 PM] ITANOZARD: i am now reading through it

[9:46:53 PM] ITANOZARD: its funny because grumpy the owner has stamped out a similar thing before

[9:47:00 PM] ITANOZARD: someone quoted his last post

[9:47:12 PM] ITANOZARD: and they are being called 'cheap' for doing that

[9:47:23 PM] Archshot: Pft.

[9:47:33 PM] Archshot: The owner said no. Play by his rules or gtfo.

 

the catroom has spoken.

Edited by itano123, 12 July 2014 - 02:00 PM.

[nevernown]

In regard of Copy-RIGHT, let's see...

"Derivative works" and stuff, actually, Batoto is hosted in the Netherlands, EU. Take note of this, it's very important.

In the EU, (I dunno how USA is) there's a "fair use" clause to the copyright system. Under "Fair Use" falls a category named "Parody" and this is what DJ's fall under. Another's own interpretation of an original work. Besides that, DJ's are accepted and sold at regular Anime/Manga cons. <props to Socrates for also pointing this out>

Copyright infringement is a law that was placed to make sure that: YOU WOULD NOT COPY AN ORIGINAL WORK AND SELL IT AS YOUR OWN.

that is, e.g.

When I copy a CD, Manga, Software, whatever, copy it, put my name on it, and sell it. That's the two parts:

1. My name on something I did not make, claiming it is my own.

2. The original work redistributed FOR PROFIT.

Most DJ's (as far as my understanding goes) do neither of this, in the moderate intrepetation of copyright, they are perfectly fine. A simple "credits"-like page should be enough to legalize most DJ's.

If there is profit involved, then they should legally enter into contract with the original mangaka, and pay them a percentage, or they should be fined.

 

This is more or less like like how the music industry generally allows reintrepetation and remixes, provided that you do not use the complete original work itself.

 

Moreover, one could argue that each and every translation/scanlation is a re-intrepetation (though that might be stretching it). That is, until someone gets a license, an official claim on a translation in a specific language.

 

Lastly, please remember some things about copyright:

1. It is an old law, from before the internet was a thing, it was mainly made to cover re-selling originals (or selling/giving copies of that away). Under no circumstance was it meant to stop any attempt at creativity.

2. The copyright law is not one-sided, it grants several rights, like self-owned backup copies, and the right to parody.

3. Even when translating/DJ'ing or even translating a DJ is (debatable, corner cased) infringing this copyright, and the owner IS actually experiencing trouble, then they have the right to contact the people, and talk it out. Or inform the authorities and have them talking it out.

 

Now, I know that in good ol' 'murica thing are more complex than this, but until recently, the Netherlands was actually so lenient (since CopyRIGHT law is actually pretty lenient in the way it can be explained, in spite of the fact companies nowadays seem to think it's basically a thing to beat people to death with) that you could download any movie or sound without any trouble. That last part changed under pressure from bigger countries though.

 

This is on topic of MAKING DJ's

 

 

 

Now then. Batoto DOES SEEM to actually not upload licensed stuff. Take Fairy Tail, it's not uploaded anymore because a translation company has a license for that. Just so, Automata is not updated anymore, because it was licensed (or requested by the author, I can't fully remember). So yeah, when someone goed to batoto and asks this, then yeah it will be solved.

 

Yes, there are people going around translating anything they can. Even outside the Manga industry, the self-made and self-hosted webcomics I know of usually have atleast a translation in spanish, and you know what? They are GRATEFUL. Also, however many friends you have, you cannot claim that ALL DJka's want to keep low profile. Or that MOST have a credit page saying to not redistrubute outside Japan. First, numbers, then assumptions, not the other way 'round. Indeed, I doubt they ALL do. Looking at all the other creative businesses, people want to SHOW their PROUD, EFFORTFUL work. So win-win when someone translates your work in that case!

 

Even if they do have these wishes on their page, let's say they ALL do. How, then, can you level that with your claim that they are illegal? If something is illegal, then all rights on it are forfeit. You have to choose here.

Either we recognize DJ's as legit creations within fair use (As I do). Then we can discuss about the DJka's wishes and rules.

Or we assume that the DJ itself is counterfeit/illegal, in which case all of the DJka's wishes are null and void.

This is to counter your reasoning.

 

The funny thing is, in the SECOND case, there is no claim, and anyone can freely scanlate, as much as the DJka could create the DJ. because the state of illegalty stays the same, and the DJka has no claim whatsoever.

In the FIRST case, we can justify scanlating any work WITHOUT wishes, by the same way we justify scanlating originals. IF they however DO have wishes, they have al lthe right to speak up for themselves. Oh, but wait, they don't speak english? Well, guess what, a translator speaks, or atleast reads japanese, so that's not an issue!

 

In ALL of these cases the responsibility lies with the scanlator group, and not Batoto. If Batoto is notified that something is not wanted up, then they WILL take it down, or notify involved people. (that is what my experience shows me, like with Automata and Fairy Tail).

 

Now you claim:

"There's a difference between original works and fan works"

There's not, as I have proven in above text, the ONLY way you can say anything about DJ's specifically, is if you recognize them as legit creations. And thus, they ARE the same as original works: Legit creations.

But that's not all, some DJ's are done by the original mangaka's (I remember discussing that earlier this week, I think it was with our Ranting Swede / Horn). This fact further confuses the claim that there are two distinctly separate objects, while in reality there is but a vague distinction at most. DJ's are not allowed to make money unles a part goes, under agreement, to the original's creator. But that does not make it less of an original creation. (Taking in account all I said before).

 

 

 

So, to conclude in short:

1. DJ's cannot be viewed as illegal. That would get rid of the whole discussion as plain "both DJ's and all translations of them are counterfeit".

2. Thus follows that you have to assume they are legit creations under fair use, if you want to discuss this.

3. When you assume this, then in one part, there is no problem (when the DJka has NO wishes).

4. When the DJka has wishes, it is certainly not impossible to contact people. And on top of that, Batoto is not responsible.

5. As said before, DJ's are not all that different from originals.

 

Now, I believe I repeated a lot of people, and I probably even repeated myself.

Also, before you go assuming stuff, I have ransacked over copyright from more angles than most of you have, in several hobbyist AND work-related environments. I would really appreciate if people would try to understand what a LAW is trying to ACCOMPLISH rather than what COMPANIES are trying to MAKE IT SAY. but I already pointed that out at the start of my post.

 

Alas, hope everyone had fun reading. Please, if I missed some points, or only grasped half facts, by all means tell me~

 

Greetz,

Nevy

Edited by nevernown, 12 July 2014 - 04:51 PM.

[svines85]

I keep repeating my points so often and you either still choose not to understand or can't understand.

Spoiler

Putting doujinshi and comics in the same place hurts me almost physically. From your replies I assume you do not have any artist friends nor are you part of the doujinshi scene nor had been in contact with doujinkas and really don't know about the topic at all (hence why you say things like that).

 

Old threads and older statements aside, I still want to see you reply directly to the points I mentioned and not just evade it with "they are all the same", they are not. Go back to the first page and reread what I said. I am aware I might come across as arrogant, but to me you seem to really don't know about artists (and the problems they face at all), the difference between "public" people and "private" people (and also difference between public content and private content). And do not brush me off here, I believe I raised valid points that should be considered. 

 

(Before anyone makes the doujinshi = comics comparison again, the latter are paid......................)

 

(Linking to an old thread and wanting the discussion to die in a "god said so and that is final" is really cheap)

 

Haaaaaa.........so that's what it comes down to in your mind, eh? Anyone who doesn't agree with you must be stupid, right? Or, in the context of this discussion, it's the quasi-sanctimonious "you're just not part of the scene [like I am]". Wow, you couldn't be any more pompous or close-minded if you tried.

 

Well, for my part, I think I've answered this topic enough. I don't see the necessity of "reply[ing] directly to the points" since I think the problem here is that your fundamental argument is flawed. If you accept fan scanlations of any comic then you've lost all traction to say "but not this one, that'd be wrong". And that is exactly what you're trying to do.    >_< 

[S.C.]

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Doujinshi#Copyright_issues

Edit: I honestly regret having posted here. >_>

Edited by S.C., 12 July 2014 - 08:54 PM.

[red_rainbow]

I don't know where to start because when I just read this thread... I found it funny enough on some points that you guys seem to prefer enjoying "free stuff" and fulfilled your own satisfaction rather than respecting the doujinkas themselves and from what I read you guys seems thinking doujins and original manga itself are the same thing while it isn't??? 

 

Maybe you guys didn't know about the actual condition in doujinshi area itself. most doujinshi are fan made manga based on existing series forms, they have some disclaimer and selling them are not even easy because it's not sold in commercial market unlike manga itself which have the valid copyright. If you think The availability of doujinshi is something is legal, It's like you pretend that "you can get heroin because you think it is legal". and this is just bullshits. 

 

Because it has been so minor, and possibly even helpful to a degree (proming anime sensibilies) companies haven't felt to threatened by them. Things change. For example there's an IP that previously wasn't owned by a japanese/US distributor gets a contract and now is an IP they need to protect. An anime or video game becomes more popular and they want you to buy the official comic book. There are a myriad of reasons why there could be a sea change in the environment, another good one being that people have done it for so long they start to think it is legal to use and distribute someone else's IP without their permission. If convention management thinks it is a legal risk to allow people to circulate these materials at their convention they are would be wise to avoid allowing them in an official capacity. 

 

Times have changed from anime being a niche thing to big big money and that means little fan made projects like this will become problematic in countries that have more strict IP laws. 

 

 

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Doujinshi#Copyright_issues

 

And yes thank you for pointing this, I want to explain the actual condition about copyright stuff in japan. 

 

Doujinshis are rampant in the underground culture but everyone makes sure these things do not cause trouble for the main companies (I will explain some incident where a Doraemon doujinshi creator got in trouble for unintentionally misleading some readers into thinking that the doujinshi titled “last chapter” was to be the last chapter of the real Doraemon. The doujinshi was very similar in style to the real Doraemon and a lot of people bought this knowing it was a doujinshi. However, due to unauthorized spreading of the doujinshi, it also reached casual fans who are not familiar with these things. They got confused and started contacting the company in charge of Doraemon in order to confirm the “last chapter”. This “mislead” would probably have never happened if it wasn’t spread around outside of the doujinshi world. A lot of people unfamiliar with doujinshis mailed/called the company which caused trouble for the company). Moreover, a lot of doujinshi are "questionable” (and can be explicit) in Japanese culture wherein other people might have a tendency to “complain” about these things if they see it. What the Japanese do is avoid having their artwork reach these people by categorizing, which they lose control over when the work is spread without their knowledge. 

 

(Just imagine if you have your own R18 work being spread publicly, it will mislead “LOOK WHAT ___ MADE”)

 

Anyway, some might have the notion that otaku culture is embraced and flaunted in Japan but it’s not. The companies let people continue like this but it’s different if the companies are FORCED to do some action because of complaints/feedback from parents/customers/police. 

 

but then again my point is the doujinshis itself already illegal form which made the creator unaware to be used as commercial usages and doujinkas themselves even disabling shipping internationally (through TORANOANA and such any japanese site who sells doujin) because they even know us (as western fans) might publish it on the internet.  You can't just disrespect them by justifying they are the same thing as the manga itself. 

Edited by red_rainbow, 12 July 2014 - 09:03 PM.

[Glave]

Nevy's post pretty much sums everything up, more than i ever did in this thread. If you(dark.chii) couldn't find a way to agree, then this discussion is at end. Speak to grumpy, the grandmaster of this site, in which i think he wouldn't really be bothered because he already made his decision regarding this matter and if you're going to say it's cheap again, it's not. He's the boss, he made the rules. He's the king of this kingdom, we are at his mercy. Whether or not he change his mind is between you and him.

And dark.chii, sorry if this offend you, but all i find in your last post is that you're okay with piracy if theres a good reason for it. FUCK THAT FLIPPIN BULLSHIT. There's never a good reason to pirates anything in the first place. That's just trying to justify for what's clearly wrong. At least most people in the community didn't claim to be righteous at all for scanlating things and ripping off directly from the mangaka.

You say you resort to reading online because it's not available for you to get in your place. Do you know what that means? That means you are okay to resort to dirty methods the get what you want. It is about your greediness. Don't get me wrong, i'm not condemning you for doing that, pretty much every people in this community are doing the same. But DON'T YOU DARE TO EVER THINK IT IS RIGHT OR EVEN TRY TO JUSTIFY YOURSELF ABOUT IT. And you say you'll buy it when it's available in your place, now you tell me when exactly is 'when'? That's a fucking uncertain matter. That's a too irresponsible thing to say. Like someone in the chatlog that itano123 post, you'd be fucking in debt for idk how many years ahead or even for life if the 'when' never comes.

And you say don't talk to you if we don't get your point. I'm sorry, IMO, most of the people here actually get the gist of your point, but you decide for yourself that our reply didn't suit your need. I guess the people who agree with you are the one who understand your point, and the people who disagree didn't. This remind me of my ex that i wonder if you're my ex actually.

And if you are, i'm glad i fukken break up with you.

Edit: why the fuck i even argue

Edited by Glav, 13 July 2014 - 02:11 AM.

[dark.chii]

the catroom has spoken.

 

so you want me to post my private conversations as well? If you have anything to say to me, please reply in this thread and to me directly, and do not post excerpts of outside conversations what others think of me. Don't go passive-aggressive on me, I am not going to reply to anyone indirectly.

 

Haaaaaa.........so that's what it comes down to in your mind, eh? Anyone who doesn't agree with you must be stupid, right? Or, in the context of this discussion, it's the quasi-sanctimonious "you're just not part of the scene [like I am]". Wow, you couldn't be any more pompous or close-minded if you tried.

 

Well, for my part, I think I've answered this topic enough. I don't see the necessity of "reply[ing] directly to the points" since I think the problem here is that your fundamental argument is flawed. If you accept fan scanlations of any comic then you've lost all traction to say "but not this one, that'd be wrong". And that is exactly what you're trying to do.    >_< 

 

I am not part of the scene either don't worry, but I do have a lot of artist friends and few people with ties to Japanese artists/doujinkas so I like to believe I know a bit more than 'ordinary' people. And with the little knowledge I have (from which I can see this issue is already problematic), I do not think they should be here.

 

Also, I would like it if you would not insult me, not jump to conclusions nor put words in my mouth. Though I can't say I enjoy the conversation, I do not insult any of you either or make any deprecating comments about you either.

 

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Doujinshi#Copyright_issues

Edit: I honestly regret having posted here. >_>

 

"Fanzines don't usually cause many problems as long as they are sold only at one-day exhibitions,"

 

thanks for supporting my point further. (If you need explanation, 'sold at one-day exhibitions' => 'are not sold continuously, and there are no reprints' or even if there are, they don't circulate around for long)

 

Nevy's post pretty much sums everything up, more than i ever did in this thread. If you(dark.chii) couldn't find a way to agree, then this discussion is at end. Speak to grumpy, the grandmaster of this site, in which i think he wouldn't really be bothered because he already made his decision regarding this matter and if you're going to say it's cheap again, it's not. He's the boss, he made the rules. He's the king of this kingdom, we are at his mercy. Whether or not he change his mind is between you and him. [1]

And dark.chii, sorry if this offend you, but all i find in your last post is that you're okay with piracy if theres a good reason for it [2]. FUCK THAT FLIPPIN BULLSHIT. There's never a good reason to pirates anything in the first place [3]. That's just trying to justify for what's clearly wrong. At least most people in the community didn't claim to be righteous at all for scanlating things and ripping off directly from the mangaka. [4]

You say you resort to reading online because it's not available for you to get in your place. Do you know what that means? That means you are okay to resort to dirty methods the get what you want. It is about your greediness. Don't get me wrong, i'm not condemning you for doing that, pretty much every people in this community are doing the same [5]. But DON'T YOU DARE TO EVER THINK IT IS RIGHT OR EVEN TRY TO JUSTIFY YOURSELF ABOUT IT. And you say you'll buy it when it's available in your place, now you tell me when exactly is 'when'? That's a fucking uncertain matter. That's a too irresponsible thing to say. Like someone in the chatlog that itano123 post, you'd be fucking in debt for idk how many years ahead or even for life if the 'when' never comes. [6]

And you say don't talk to you if we don't get your point. I'm sorry, IMO, most of the people here actually get the gist of your point, but you decide for yourself that our reply didn't suit your need [7]. I guess the people who agree with you are the one who understand your point, and the people who disagree didn't. This remind me of my ex that i wonder if you're my ex actually [8].

 

[1] so because he holds the power, and since this discussion does not seem to be going anywhere, I am waiting for someone with authority to reply with an official statement (and lock this thread, if need arises).

 

[3] this is (part of) why piracy isn't entirely bad by itself, from the view of a business. If that is not enough, and I wasn't going to do this, but I am not sure how many would believe me if I didn't, [2] this (1) is (2) why I personally am not entirely opposed to it. More clarification:

 

(1) none of those games were released in my country (at the time they were released in America/Japan, and to this day, some of them still are not). I pirated most of them out of curiosity at first but after I realized I really liked them, I imported them (especially the red one, it turned me into a fan of that particular company and franchise).

 

(2) I read them all online, thanks to scanlation groups and I have seen NONE OF THEM in my country, and some, I will probably never see either. 

 

[4], [5] many people and scanlation groups also want to support the mangakas and creators. I have seen many "please support the mangaka and buy their manga (if available in their country)", sometimes there are also links to Japanese (!!) websites where you can buy them, there are threads and people asking about how to import mangas and which sites/methods are best, don't jump to conclusions. Though maybe boys are less inclined to want to support the creators and very happy with the current situation? Judging by my environment, I would think so. (my female friends all seem more invested in mangas etc. and buy them often, and some buy even merchandise, while all my male acquaintances do not seem to be invested in them at all and merely read them online, I am not joking, I asked some of them.)

 

I know there are people who cannot afford to buy them in their country nor can afford imports (which can be even more expensive, if you take into account the shipping costs and customs). However, piracy (and scanlations) to me is only okay out in the open if there is a chance of supporting the creators directly. For any manga, you can search for the title, there are plenty of websites where you can buy them (or even buy them in your country sometimes). You can't do the same with doujinshis. And if there is no chance, there are underground websites where you can get everything secretly and those things should stay there.

 

For [6], see above.

 

[7] There is a difference between constructive replies and dodging the issue. The reactions I have seen so far (excluding nevernown's reply which I have yet to read and will do so later, sorry) seem to range between "this is how it works, suck it", "why are you upset?", "I think/want them to stay" and "aren't they the same? They are the same, manga = doujins" and others that I might have forgotten or missed, but please do excuse me, I am dealing with a number of people here. The problem with non-constructive replies, as I call them (like the "this is how it works, suck it"-one) do not resolve the issue. If you do not provide valid arguments against what I say, you enable me to reply in the same manner as you do, and I do not want to keep repeating "I don't like this", "well, but I like this" x100, because we are adults (or so I hope), and can speak about it reasonably.

 

[8] Last time I checked I have never went out with anyone and definitely not someone who uses strong language like that in a forum.

 

@nevernown: you wrote a lot, sorry I won't be replying now and will do that later because I need to read the entire reply first (which seems very content-heavy and I am not sure if I follow your logic at the moment)

Edited by dark.chii, 13 July 2014 - 04:28 PM.

[S.C.]

This is exactly why I regret having posted here. Because I already knew that you're just gonna read what you want to read and hear what you want to hear. So just to clarify, I wasn't supporting your claims. But I really don't feeling like elaborating beyond that (I really just came back here to clarify). So... consider this my last contribution to this topic:

 

[1] so because he holds the power, and since this discussion does not seem to be going anywhere, I am waiting for someone with authority to reply with an official statement (and lock this thread, if need arises).

Note the "policy - not really going to change" part.

Edited by S.C., 13 July 2014 - 05:08 PM.

[Gendalph]

Since this is getting out of hand I'm closing the thread.
It's up to Grumpy to make an official comment, if he changed his mind.

[Grumpy]

Rather than generalizing and arguing based on such generalizations, if any DJ author feels that a copy being on Batoto hurts them, or they simply don't want it here for any reason, they just need to email [email protected] and say "I am _____, and I want my work: ______ removed from Batoto." and it'll be removed. It's really simple.