34 replies to this topic

[dark.chii]

I don't think doujinshi should be allowed to be uploaded here. Before anyone even claims that they are the same as any comic or webtoon: they are not, and I can provide long, long and thorough explanations for this (if prompted, I don't want to write something if I am not sure if people will read it).

[Socrates]

I don't read doujinshi, but is it really necessary to ban the uploads? If one doesn't like it, they do not have to read it

[Horn]

I understand if you mean that it can get really cluttered with all these oneshots. But maybe instead we could get a system up to organize them more properly according to their respective series, like a system of subfolders.

[dark.chii]

I don't read doujinshi, but is it really necessary to ban the uploads? If one doesn't like it, they do not have to read it

 

I understand if you mean that it can get really cluttered with all these oneshots. But maybe instead we could get a system up to organize them more properly according to their respective series, like a system of subfolders.

 
no, those are not what I meant. I understand scanlation itself is a very gray area, and I would be a hypocrite if I said to stop them completely because there are a lot of views and points to consider, and there are also some positive aspects to scanlations. 
 
However I don't think uploading (or rather, allowing doujinshis to be uploaded) should be permitted, simply because doujinshis themselves are an even grayer area than scanlating "normal" comics (I will use 'comics' when referring to manga and webtoons because it is tedious to write them out every time).
 
There are a lot of scanlation groups with different policies and a lot of views on it, so finding "the" opinion is difficult but I had the impression scanlations themselves emerged as a reaction to a number of reasons, like lack of attention and/or localisation overseas or bad quality of the localised releases and so on. Though there are many different groups, a number of views seem to be shared however, like scanlation groups being a no-profit group (as in, they don't attempt to earn money by doing this), them encouraging fans to support the mangaka(s) by buying a copy (whether licensed or not doesn't matter) or taking down their scans when something is (finally) localised (otherwise it would be no better than piracy, though to be fair, scanlations are sort of a form of piracy by itself, so....). 
 
I don't think allowing doujinshis to be uploaded or hosting doujinshis fit into this for a multitude of reasons, but some of them tie into the things I mentioned above. Comics were made for mass entertainment. People are paid to do this. You can support mangas you like by buying a copy off your local bookstore, or if it is not licensed, you can buy them off any japanese website. You can support webtoons you like by going onto the website they are hosted and view them there (I think page views count for them or something, not sure).
You can't support doujinshis, because they were not meant for a wider audience and is only a local "japan-only" thing (usually). 
 
It is funny to talk about copyright and intellectual property infringement in relation to scanlations due to their nature, but... doujinshis themselves are copyright infringement as well.
 

Copyright infringement is the use of works protected by copyright law without permission, infringing certain exclusive rights granted to the copyright holder, such as the right to reproduce, distribute, display or perform the protected work, or to make derivative works.

 

source. The only reason they are allowed to be sold and exist in Japan is because they are a small sub-group and don't disturb anyone. Everyone in that scene knows what they are in for and keep quiet and a low profile about it.

 
(By the way, I have yet to hear of a doujinka being related to a mangaka and having the permission to draw a doujinshi...)
 

There's been a number of plagiarism cases (which is also related to copyright) in the past (Hoshino Katsura and Nick Simmons to name a few) and copyright IS a big deal in the industry, so why would you host something of questionable nature in a place like this? There are companies and people sueing others for it as well.

 

If you need a more visual example, in a sense, they are like the drawn versions of fanfics, and by allowing doujinshi to be uploaded you are basically also implying it is ok to upload comics drawn by ourselves? 
 
I have a neutral stance on doujinshi being scanlated. But I don't think they should be hosted on a "public" website, and stay in more private areas, similarly to how warez shouldn't be and aren't hosted in public websites as well.

 

I'm sorry for the long post. If there are any unclear points, feel free to ask.

Edited by dark.chii, 11 July 2014 - 05:08 PM.

[Glave]

Deleted.

Actually, this site also exist as platform for people to host their own piece here, so yes, we can actualy upload works drawn by ourselves.

Edited by Glav, 11 July 2014 - 06:37 PM.

[Socrates]

So, I want to clarify exactly what you mean by doujinshi: do you mean works that are self-published as a whole, or the stereotypical subset in that they just a copy from already written series?

 

While I dislike fan-fictions, and in turn doujinshi that are copied from existing work since they lack a lot of creativity and often are just a narcissistic escape, I think that they should still be available. This is just my philosophy of what it means to be truly free of speech. I also think that it is useful to allow for people to upload their own works and get critical feedback on how they could improve.

 

I am not sure that the analogy between doujinshi and warez works; I actually think that warez is closer to scanlations of "comics" rather than the scanlation of doujinshi.

Edited by Socrates, 11 July 2014 - 06:27 PM.

[svines85]

I don't think doujinshi should be allowed to be uploaded here. Before anyone even claims that they are the same as any comic or webtoon: they are not, and I can provide long, long and thorough explanations for this (if prompted, I don't want to write something if I am not sure if people will read it).

 

I'm afraid I'm of the opinion that you're trying to put the genie back in the bottle here. While I understand your point and the difference in the "commercially produced" comics and what's essentially another "fan" produced type work (much like the scanlation works rehosted here) I'm afraid that distinction isn't (obviously) enough to dissuade other fans from scanlating them just like any other comic. 

 

And, even if you were to successfully petition for removal of all of them from this site.........well, yeah, the genie's out of the bottle. It really wouldn't change anything. They'll still be scanlated, they'll still be rehosted by composite reader sites............and I'm personally not sure it's any more "wrong" than any other scanlation or fan translations of whatever medium. 

 

But you've got a right to your opinion, so good luck with it  

[dark.chii]

Deleted.

Actually, this site also exist as platform for people to host their own piece here, so yes, we can actualy upload works drawn by ourselves.

 

there is still a difference to me between "works drawn by ourselves that belongs to ourselves 100%" (this is legal) and "works drawn by ourselves that are derivate works based on others' intellectual property" (this is or borders on illegal). I have nothing against indie works being uploaded (that is what a number of 'webtoons' on naver are and I'm a fan of many of them), however I have a problem if, for example, there were works being uploaded that uses others' characters in them. And doujinshis are just drawn fanfiction.

 

So, I want to clarify exactly what you mean by doujinshi: do you mean works that are self-published as a whole, or the stereotypical subset in that they just a copy from already written series?

 

While I dislike fan-fictions, and in turn doujinshi that are copied from existing work since they lack a lot of creativity and often are just a narcissistic escape, I think that they should still be available. This is just my philosophy of what it means to be truly free of speech. I also think that it is useful to allow for people to upload their own works and get critical feedback on how they could improve.

 

I am not sure that the analogy between doujinshi and warez works; I actually think that warez is closer to scanlations of "comics" rather than the scanlation of doujinshi.

 

I do not think they should be available (at least not in public like this), and please do not talk to me about "free of speech" in this context. Doujinshis are not a business. They aren't paid to do this unlike mangaka (and the ones who make webtoons, sorry I do not know the term for them). There are a lot of issues about doujinshis (and them being shared and hosted on a public website) and your comments suggest to me that you do not seem to know much about them. I could delve further into this topic and explain more about it, but I imagine you are not the only one who doesn't know about all of this (and one of the more open-minded people, there are a lot of people who do not care about this) so to me the easiest way is to just stop hosting doujinshis here.

 

read this for a lot of more information about doujinshis because I am lazy and it has a lot of information that I don't feel like paraphrasing

 

edit:

 

I'm afraid I'm of the opinion that you're trying to put the genie back in the bottle here. While I understand your point and the difference in the "commercially produced" comics and what's essentially another "fan" produced type work (much like the scanlation works rehosted here) I'm afraid that distinction isn't (obviously) enough to dissuade other fans from scanlating them just like any other comic. 

 

And, even if you were to successfully petition for removal of all of them from this site.........well, yeah, the genie's out of the bottle. It really wouldn't change anything. They'll still be scanlated, they'll still be rehosted by composite reader sites............and I'm personally not sure it's any more "wrong" than any other scanlation or fan translations of whatever medium. 

 

I'm not trying to dissuade anyone from scanlating them, in fact I know plenty of people who do and I am perfectly fine with ignoring them (and you can't stop their scanlations either way.. probably). And I've never been part of any scanlation group but I have heard of a number of issues scanlation groups face like lack of acknowledgement, scans being stolen, etc... but

 

I remember when I first heard of batoto. The idea of it (or at least how I understood it) was the concern over the lack of respect for peoples' rights - scanlation groups' rights of prohibiting uploads (if a group doesn't want their stuff hosted here, it won't be hosted here) and publishers/creators' rights of their works to be removed (if a publisher asks for something to be removed, it will be removed). Is making the jump from "we respect other peoples' rights and will remove/not host something if asked" to "we respect (or at least acknowledge) copyright issues and will not host 'questionable' content" so difficult? I don't think so (and don't want to think so either). 

 

It is not a matter of removing them completely. Like I said so often already, it is 'questionable' (as in, it infringes copyright and intellectual property) so I do not think they should be out open like on a website like this. Anyone who is into this stuff should (and will) know how to get it (or at least know how to get that information). It's like there are a lot of things that are forbidden or banned [in a country], however you still can access those fine if you know how to.

Edited by dark.chii, 11 July 2014 - 07:11 PM.

[Will of NGE]

I'm not a fan of doujinshi and I am a fanatical supporter of canon and what I consider canon, but I don't want to see EVA Re-Take go. It's a fantastic piece of work.

Edited by Will of NGE, 11 July 2014 - 07:38 PM.

[Glave]

Well, doujinshi was already illegal since the time they were even put on bookstore and convention table in japan because the doujinshi uses material from other's work without the original creators consent. Hosting it here means nothing because it was distributed for free and not for making profit. It's another story if it was sold in Amazon or what, because that would affect the original authors because their material was used for profit making without their consent. Translating and hosting doujinshi for free doesn't affect the original authors, but making and selling doujinshi does. And actually, translating and hosting manga is more illegal than translating and hosting a doujinshi if you think about it, because it affect the mangaka directly in term of profit because people can read it for free in the internet anyway.

Let me tell you something ugly, no matter how a translator says that the scanlation work they made was for the purpose of this and that, it won't change the fact that the scanlation world is a business of the grey area.

If we were to ban the hosting of doujinshi, we might as well ban the hosting of every scanlation works.

Spoiler

and i'm shameless enough to say that i really don't like the idea

[Kannade]

We need to ban all of the manga on this site that isn't self published because this is or borders on illegal. Copyright IS a big deal in the industry, so why would you host something of questionable nature in a place like this? There are companies and people sueing others for it as well.

[Socrates]

So I read the article, and I still am a little loss as to why you dislike doujinshi's being out in the public. I assume because that was not their original intention, and therefore would be against the want of the author(s)?

 

I do not think they should be available (at least not in public like this), and please do not talk to me about "free of speech" in this context. Doujinshis are not a business. They aren't paid to do this unlike mangaka (and the ones who make webtoons, sorry I do not know the term for them).

 

So I understand that they may not be getting paid like a mangaka and while we cannot compensate for our viewings of the material, I am not sure that plainly just stopping the hosting of the doujinshis is the best solution. I have issues with doujinshis as I have expressed before, but I think that they are protected under fair-use being that they are nothing more than a parody. I think the issue is not that they are being hosted, but rather doujinishi artists are not along with the times, especially with the fact that they can no longer have close to full regulation due to the internet.

 

There are a lot of issues about doujinshis (and them being shared and hosted on a public website) and your comments suggest to me that you do not seem to know much about them. I could delve further into this topic and explain more about it, but I imagine you are not the only one who doesn't know about all of this (and one of the more open-minded people, there are a lot of people who do not care about this) so to me the easiest way is to just stop hosting doujinshis here.

 

I agree with what Glav has just posted; however, I think that you need to give concrete examples and give a step-by-step argument from "There are a lot of issues about doujinshis" to "so to me the easiest (solution) is to just stop hosting doujinshis here" and so that you can get your audience of newbies and others to understand your perception.

[dark.chii]

Well, doujinshi was already illegal since the time they were even put on bookstore and convention table in japan because the doujinshi uses material from other's work without the original creators consent [1]. Hosting it here means nothing because it was distributed for free and not for making profit [2]. It's another story if it was sold in Amazon or what, because that would affect the original authors because their material was used for profit making without their consent [3]. Translating and hosting doujinshi for free doesn't affect the original authors, but making and selling doujinshi does [4]. And actually, translating and hosting manga is more illegal than translating and hosting a doujinshi if you think about it, because it affect the mangaka directly in term of profit because people can read it for free in the internet anyway [5].

Let me tell you something ugly, no matter how a translator says that the scanlation work they made was for the purpose of this and that, it won't change the fact that the scanlation world is a business of the grey area [6].

If we were to ban the hosting of doujinshi, we might as well ban the hosting of every scanlation works [7].

 

We need to ban all of the manga on this site that isn't self published because this is or borders on illegal. Copyright IS a big deal in the industry, so why would you host something of questionable nature in a place like this? There are companies and people sueing others for it as well.

 

Did you even read and understand what I said because I am not sure if you did, but ok let me reply to your points.

 

[1] you are right, in a sense they are illegal however because doujinka only sell them in private places (through fan-organized events and their own shops) it is no big deal in Japan and most people are willing to turn a blind eye on this because they are only shared between private people who know what they are in for and don't attract any attention. 

 

[2] contradicts [1], you cannot say it won't attract any attention being on a website like this in the open. (before any of you mention any other comics hosting website, most (all?) simply do not care and will host anything they see so those are a lost case). 

 

[3], [4] see [1] again. Doujinkas try to keep a low profile and by hosting them here, you destroy just that.

 

[5] Doujinka are private people, not businesses. I guess this ties in with how you view scanlations (or what the purpose of scanlations are), however professional comics hosting websites to me should not deal with fanworks. Would you go onto deviantART and translate whatever fan comics you find there to post here? I hope not.

 

[6] like I said before, you can support mangas and webtoons, they are meant for the masses, but doujinshis were not and have nothing to do on this website, please reread my earlier posts.

 

[7] again, there is a difference between original works and fanworks and I do not think you can put them together. 

 

So I read the article, and I still am a little loss as to why you dislike doujinshi's being out in the public. I assume because that was not their original intention, and therefore would be against the want of the author(s)?

 

So I understand that they may not be getting paid like a mangaka and while we cannot compensate for our viewings of the material, I am not sure that plainly just stopping the hosting of the doujinshis is the best solution. I have issues with doujinshis as I have expressed before, but I think that they are protected under fair-use being that they are nothing more than a parody. I think the issue is not that they are being hosted, but rather doujinishi artists are not along with the times, especially with the fact that they can no longer have close to full regulation due to the internet.

 

I agree with what Glav has just posted; however, I think that you need to give concrete examples and give a step-by-step argument from "There are a lot of issues about doujinshis" to "so to me the easiest (solution) is to just stop hosting doujinshis here" and so that you can get your audience of newbies and others to understand your perception.

 

How can you not understand after reading that blog entry?

 

Suppose we do keep doujinshis on this website - what do you do to support the doujinkas? A lot of scanlation groups ask people to support the mangakas and you can't support doujinkas because their doujinshis are (1) limited and (2) go out of print eventually/fast. You can't justify hosting doujinshi, they are derivative works, copyright infringement, ... how often will I have to repeat myself what is there not to understand

 

I feel that a lot of western people have that mentality of "everything should be freely accessible to everyone!" and I understand this thinking however I would be wary to say everyone feels the same way.

 

Doujinkas have a lot less power than companies. Where a company has a lot of workers and can file complaints, doujinkas often are just ordinary japanese people. (I hate to support stereotypes, but it is a fact a lot of japanese people can't speak english well).

 

I believe I named a number of points and I explained myself well enough and I honestly do not understand what else do you need? Okay fine, doujinshis sometimes/often deal with romance and (especially doujinshi related to shonen mangas) deal with underage characters in romantic situations. This might border on child pornography and there are laws against that in Korea, China and recently, also Japan, is this enough? In China, young women were arrested for writing fanfictions (and yeah you could argue that it's China and not Japan, but let's see if you can still say that in a couple of years because you can't know what will happen in the future). A number of doujinkas know or feel self-conscious about their work and might be alright with sharing a small number of doujinshis on private events, but I do not know if they are alright with the rest of the world looking at it from their screens (and I wouldn't want to see my drawings ever on a website where a lot of users frequent it daily and can see it too).

Doujinshis are a loss-activity for doujinkas because most of them do not earn enough to cover the costs (which they pay with their own money, unlike mangaka contracted to a company). So in addition to everything I had said earlier, it is even more unfair to everyone involved in the doujinshi scene. If you want to share and scanlate doujinshi go ahead, but don't encourage it in public like this and stick to private or locked communities. 

 

sorry for the half-assed replies, it is late and I am feeling very tired. i will think about making an even more thorough explanation though..

Edited by dark.chii, 11 July 2014 - 09:26 PM.

[Shrimpeh]

i normally don't read doujins, but...

Suppose we do keep doujinshis on this website - what do you do to support the doujinkas?

suppose we ban them, what can we do to support them then?

that's right, nothing.

nothing will change.

 

 

 

I feel that a lot of western people have that mentality of "everything should be freely accessible to everyone!" and I understand this thinking however I would be wary to say everyone feels the same way.

you couldn't be more wrong, while there are some things people think should be (for example Healthcare and knowledge), and even then it depends on the country, for example in the US, Healthcare isn't freely accessible to everyone, while in europe you can get relatively cheap healthcare (compared to the US).

 

The thing about (most) manga, and by extent doujin, is, that their is no legal way to read them aslong as you don't learn japanese and/or travel to japan yourself.

 

Most manga don't get an official translation, and those that do, get it about 5 years after the jap. releases.

Those non-officially-translated mostly don't get any support either, because they don't appear out of japan (and alot of them get axed afaik), so we can but them in the category as doujinshis,

should they get banned, too?

 

 

Edit: if a doujinkas wants to remove his work from a site, he should have every right to do so.

i will also qoute something from the link you posted

 

 

I understand the fact that it is not easy to buy doujin abroad, and I guess even if it was available, you might feel that it is too expensive.

if people like the doujin, they will mostly try to support it, espicially if there was a translation available.

However the only way people aboard can get a translated version of the doujin right now is through scans.

Edited by Alex Shrimpostur, 12 July 2014 - 12:28 AM.

[Chocolate Chip]

This has already been brought up before: https://vatoto.com/forums/topic/7131-screening-process/ I would bring your attention to Grumpy's final post:

 

 

1. We do screen things that are uploaded, although incomplete.
2. We have made a decision to host fan content. Doujinshi is also a fan content.
3. Fan fictions have rarely been cause of legal issues. Some additional reading: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Legal_issues_with_fan_fiction
4. And yes, if the copyright holder does have problem with it, we will take it down. But, others don't really have the legal right or a strong reason to argue against that.

[svines85]

Well, doujinshi was already illegal since the time they were even put on bookstore and convention table in japan because the doujinshi uses material from other's work without the original creators consent. 

 

"Doujinshi" simply refers to the self-published nature of the work, so when you say "they're all illegal" I suppose you mean all the ones that are parody works. I personally read or look over, literally, at least a dozen original, non-parody, doujinshi most every day. All online, some translated/scanlated, some not. 

 

I've read over all of this and frankly I'm not even sure what point anyone's trying to make here. In the big scheme of things, doujinshi being fan scanlated and put online are no different than a commercially produced manga being scanlated and put online or me taking someone's picture on a street corner with a camera and then deciding to put it online. What was once a limited-number, controlled amount product is now on the internet with a kabillion potential copies. 

 

There's no stopping it anymore, it's a symptom/effect of the electronic media age, thus making this a really pointless topic. 

[Charming Lunacy]

I don't believe Batoto should host doujinshis either (I'm shortening it to DJs now).

 

I'm under the impression that most people who reply aren't too familiar with the DJ scene. There are various problems when you host these compared to manga published by companies.

 

DJs are created by fans who love the series and use their OWN money to produce these. Many of these artists work hard and sell these to share what they love. The thing is though is that they need people to BUY their doujinshinjis in order to make up for what was lost when producing them. When you host these, it gives the impression that Batoto allows does not listen to the individuals that make these. Funny how that works since this place is said to upload scanlator's wishes but does not seem to care about your average person not backed by any company and let their work be posted on here.

 

You will see many DJs will have the following put on their covers:

1. Do not redistribute

2. Do not take pictures or scan

3. Do not edit

4. Do not share outside of Japan

 

When people scan and upload these, they're already in violation of the artist's wish. And when you translate these DJs knowing that, it's an awful thing to do. That's an artist losing their OWN money and having their wishes violated. That's why they tend to only want their works to remain in Japan. The Japanese find Westerners to be awful following these rules and for your own selfishness, those who actually go out and buy them are no longer given the option to do so. You hurt the feelings of a SINGLE PERSON. Wow what a great thing to do!

 

Editing falls under scanlating. You see, artists don't want to see their work edited and want it to remain as is. When you host stuff like this, you give access to a broader audience who assumes it's okay to edit an artist's work WHICH IT ISN'T. The fact these people do this without even asking for the artist's permission is beyond me. The people who make DJs are really nice and are flattered when someone likes their work but they don't get that appreciation when you do things like upload it onto sites like these.

 

By not following the guidelines they set, you ruin it for others who share the same interests as them. These artists stop drawing because they feel like no one respects their stuff so your one action just ruined it for hundreds of others.

 

In terms of copyrighted material, many of these artists are familiar with that but some companies are relaxed about it and all these fanworks to exist. Others are not so lenient.

 

Batoto did have some Utau no Prince-sama DJs and guess what! Broccoli (the company that owns the franchise) said that fans are no longer allowed to sell any of their work for that series. If they are caught, they will get sued so when you have these DJs floating around, you make it easy for the artist to be targeted. Gee thanks!

 

Most of these artists don't know English too well either to even request for their stuff to be taken down. And the same can work the other way- why don't you ask them if you can host/translate their stuff? That easily saves work and the Doujinka knows who is hosting their stuff rather than blindly looking around. Heck people have written letters you can use to ask for permission! In all honesty, it would better would be to put up a translation/summary but no scans and ask for people to buy to the support them.

 

The principal of the matter is that this is hurting individual artists and you honestly don't care because it doesn't affect you.

 

Just because people share this stuff doesn't mean you should just accept it as is and blame the internet. You can choose to ask people to stop and make choices that don't hurt others.

 

If you can't afford something or read it. Sucks for you but you can't expect to have everything.

 

In short, leading by example is better than just becoming another Mangafox that literally puts anything on here. ᕕ( ᐛ )ᕗ

[Glave]

@svines in my little unclarified understanding, doujin is self published original works, and doujinshi is self published fanfict, so yes, i believe i mean the parodied works when i mention doujinshi. <:

@dark.chii this is my understanding of your point anyway, so correct me if i'm wrong. Your point is that it would attract unwanted attention to the doujinka by hosting their works in here or other online manga reader, and it may increase the chance of them getting a lawsuit from the respective mangaka whom works got parodied.

Actually, in most cases, you can hardly get a lawsuit of creating a fanfict as long you [1]cited the manga/mangaka/the works/the original source of the parodied works and claim no rights of the characters/design/whatever that's borrowed from the original works[1] and most importantly, not making any profits from it. If you could get a lawsuit from all that, authors around the world would get rich from just from lawsuit alone from all the fanfict material that were originally posted freely online, and fanfiction.net would be gold mines of authors right now, but welp nope nope nope nothing like that happen, at least until now.

So what's make a doujinshi a border illegal material that vulnerable to lawsuit? It's because they(any doujinka who sell their doujinshi), in a way, makes profit from it. No matter how pure of intention they have, that didn't matter at all when they are gaining money from it, even if they barely got profit from it, even if they just made it enough to cover the production cost, even if they got negative profit from what they had invest in the process of making the doujinshi. It didn't matter even if they did[1], as long as there some kind of kind of money profitting involved in this business, you are vulnerable to the lawsuit.

Of course this only applied to doujinka who openly sell their doujinshi, while all the doujinka who posted/distributed their doujinshi cost-free like the guys in deviantart as you mentioned, are barely endangered by the threat of lawsuit(that is, if they did [1])

IMO, all doujinka should be aware of the consequences of the selling doujinshi, because the content were not theirs to begin with. If they were to get a lawsuit or lose in the lawsuit battle, it's because they're selling the doujinshi at the first place. If all doujinka really are private peoples, there's a more safe alternative by hosting their works on internet which is free/barely cost a cents and a not money-profitting way. But since they gone out of their way to sell the doujinshi which really cost-related project, i guess not all doujinka are private people. And it doesn't matter if they don't regards it as business, it's still business in the eyes of law, and a borderline illegal one.

My point is that, since all this scanlation works were also a borderline illegal business, there's not much point in trying to defend the doujinka of their borderline illegal works. We just can hope that they didn't get the lawsuit anytime soon, the same goes to the scanlators.

@Charming Lunacy sooooooo you're okay to offend a legitimate mangaka's feeling by reading their works for free in the internet, but not a doujinka's feeling who's work are borderline illegal at the first place? May i ask you what are doing in this kind of site at the first place?

Let me clarify something, Batoto is not all that holier than any manga reading site. The only differences is that this site support scanlators on their scanlation policy. Scanlation is already an illegal business, but sites like Mangafox makes the crime value of scanlation even bigger in the eyes of law because they make profits from all them free scanlation. There are scanlator who don't actually give a fak about all this law shiet, but there's also some folks who did give a fak, and the purpose of this site is to support the fak giver. Just simple like that.

Again, scanlation is illegal, it's borderline illegal, though it's borderline, the word illegal is still there dammit i feel so sinful now just take down this whole site already

Edited by Glav, 12 July 2014 - 04:06 AM.

[svines85]

I'm under the impression that most people who reply aren't too familiar with the DJ scene.

Spoiler

There are various problems when you host these compared to manga published by companies.

 

DJs are created by fans who love the series and use their OWN money to produce these. Many of these artists work hard and sell these to share what they love. The thing is though is that they need people to BUY their doujinshinjis in order to make up for what was lost when producing them. When you host these, it gives the impression that Batoto allows does not listen to the individuals that make these. Funny how that works since this place is said to upload scanlator's wishes but does not seem to care about your average person not backed by any company and let their work be posted on here.

 

You will see many DJs will have the following put on their covers:

1. Do not redistribute

2. Do not take pictures or scan

3. Do not edit

4. Do not share outside of Japan

 

When people scan and upload these, they're already in violation of the artist's wish. And when you translate these DJs knowing that, it's an awful thing to do. That's an artist losing their OWN money and having their wishes violated. That's why they tend to only want their works to remain in Japan. The Japanese find Westerners to be awful following these rules and for your own selfishness, those who actually go out and buy them are no longer given the option to do so. You hurt the feelings of a SINGLE PERSON. Wow what a great thing to do!

 

Editing falls under scanlating. You see, artists don't want to see their work edited and want it to remain as is. When you host stuff like this, you give access to a broader audience who assumes it's okay to edit an artist's work WHICH IT ISN'T. The fact these people do this without even asking for the artist's permission is beyond me. The people who make DJs are really nice and are flattered when someone likes their work but they don't get that appreciation when you do things like upload it onto sites like these.

 

By not following the guidelines they set, you ruin it for others who share the same interests as them. These artists stop drawing because they feel like no one respects their stuff so your one action just ruined it for hundreds of others.

 

In terms of copyrighted material, many of these artists are familiar with that but some companies are relaxed about it and all these fanworks to exist. Others are not so lenient.

 

Batoto did have some Utau no Prince-sama DJs and guess what! Broccoli (the company that owns the franchise) said that fans are no longer allowed to sell any of their work for that series. If they are caught, they will get sued so when you have these DJs floating around, you make it easy for the artist to be targeted. Gee thanks!

 

Most of these artists don't know English too well either to even request for their stuff to be taken down. And the same can work the other way- why don't you ask them if you can host/translate their stuff? That easily saves work and the Doujinka knows who is hosting their stuff rather than blindly looking around. Heck people have written letters you can use to ask for permission! In all honesty, it would better would be to put up a translation/summary but no scans and ask for people to buy to the support them.

 

The principal of the matter is that this is hurting individual artists and you honestly don't care because it doesn't affect you.

 

Just because people share this stuff doesn't mean you should just accept it as is and blame the internet. You can choose to ask people to stop and make choices that don't hurt others.

 

If you can't afford something or read it. Sucks for you but you can't expect to have everything.

 

In short, leading by example is better than just becoming another Mangafox that literally puts anything on here. ᕕ( ᐛ )ᕗ

 

So, you're "under the impression" that anybody who has a different opinion than you............oh wait, it's not just a different opinion, it's anyone even replying........ must know less than you do? My goodness, what incredibly self-important view of the world you have.  >_<

 

Whatever, as Chocolate Chip points out, this is just rehashing an already settled topic. 

 

https://vatoto.com/forums/topic/7131-screening-process/

[Charming Lunacy]

So, you're "under the impression" that anybody who has a different opinion than you............oh wait, it's not just a different opinion, it's anyone even replying........ must know less than you do? My goodness, what incredibly self-important view of the world you have.  >_<

 

Whatever, as Chocolate Chip points out, this is just rehashing an already settled topic. 

 

https://vatoto.com/forums/topic/7131-screening-process/

 

My my~ if you knew it so well then why are you okay with scanlating it when I said that a lot of people who make djs have rules on what you can do with the copy you bought. Because it doesn't look like you're quite informed on the issue. In fact, you're all dodging the issue and not really caring about someone who spends their own money to produce these djs. It's really fun to read how upset these artists are on their blogs about how no one listens to them or bothered to ask for permission if anyone could do anything to what they made.

 

Thanks for bringing up a two year old thread that obviously reflects how we should treat people like absolute garbage and disregard their wishes.

 

Sorta reminds me of what other hosting sites treat scanlators as. Funny!

 

 

@Charming Lunacy sooooooo you're okay to offend a legitimate mangaka's feeling by reading their works for free in the internet, but not a doujinka's feeling who's work are borderline illegal at the first place? May i ask you what are doing in this kind of site at the first place?

Let me clarify something, Batoto is not all that holier than any manga reading site. The only differences is that this site support scanlators on their scanlation policy. Scanlation is already an illegal business, but sites like Mangafox makes the crime value of scanlation even bigger in the eyes of law because they make profits from all them free scanlation. There are scanlator who don't actually give a fak about all this law shiet, but there's also some folks who did give a fak, and the purpose of this site is to support the fak giver. Just simple like that.

Again, scanlation is illegal, it's borderline illegal, though it's borderline, the word illegal is still there dammit i feel so sinful now just take down this whole site already

 

Legitimate mankagas are backed by a company. They have licensing and other things to protect them. 

 

Doujinkas do not.

 

I am quite aware of what they are doing and so are a lot of the companies in Japan but many of them like fanworks as it helps to create a larger fandom and attract a potential audience.

 

These people barely make a profit when making djs and tend to only cut even or stay in the red. The average dj tends to cost around $10 and production costs tend to be about $5-7 per book. Wow a lot of profit! Not really because unsold djs will still lie about and there is to take into account the time they spent drawing and drafting the story, as well as traveling, advertising so more people know.

 

Amazing! Batoto can support individual scanlation groups but doesn't seem to care about artists! Really? How hard is it for a scanlation group to contact an artist and ask if they can scanlate it. It's only decency you do as such. It's easier for you to find the artist than to have someone report to said artist you took their work and did everything without permission. You even have a translator who can talk to the artist.

 

I only pulled up mf because they treat scanlators how scanlation groups tend to treat doujinkas. And don't pull that whole "we don't make money." I'm referring to the decency to respect the wishes of others and ask for permission to do stuff.

 

In all honesty, I'm only asking that individual artists with no financial backing from companies have their work taken down and are unaware of what's happening. Is it that hard to ask? Like you're harming an individual but all you're bringing up is copyright and how they should be punished for trying to share what they love. That's really messed up.

Edited by Charming Lunacy, 12 July 2014 - 06:47 AM.