63 replies to this topic

[ayanchua]

Hmmm... Asha, ranked as the 5th magician, has A++ Rank, very mysterious, also has her own agenda maybe out for revenge. Though we really are not sure what exactly what she wants. She prevents Leez from knowing what really happened in her village. What do you think of Asha?

[Mizura]

Oh, Asha. At first glance Asha seems like a real jerk, but I think you have to realize two things to understand Asha:
1. She doesn't Know how to display affection.
2. She's already decided on a path that will lead to her death. Her entire existence is one of nihilism.
 
Asha lost everything from when she was 10, and since then, she dedicated her whole life to becoming stronger. Because of her overwhelming rise, she was the object of envy, and she most certainly never set aside time to socialize. As a result, she doesn't know how to be kind to others. She expects high standards from Leez, but the one she demands the most of is herself. I even wonder if her mother was cold to her too: in chapter 2-24, she says: "You'll find that you miss even this 'frigid attitude' of mine... when I am no longer with you." Was she speaking from experience?
 
A good analogy would be those authoritative grandfathers who were always overly strict with their children, leading them to suffer. But they later find out that the grandfather always did care deeply for his children, but truly didn't know any other way of displaying that affection. It's a bit like that with Asha. She was denied an environment that would teach her sensitivity and compassion. Just look at how she was like with Brilith during the exams.
 
The thing is, she does Try to be nice to Leez. When Leez complains too much about being hungry, she will mellow a bit and suggest eating too. In Atera, she considered Leez' present "received", and in Mistyshore, she was disappointed that Leez had already eaten, so couldn't eat with her. You also see this behavior with Brilith: when Brilith offered her the hat and said it looked good on her, she said she'd wear it always (before being discouraged to by everyone else). Let's just say that the book version also tells us how she got that skirt of hers, even though according to Riche, she hates skirts. She's like that with Ran, too: she engages in petty rivalry against him, but she hid the truth about her score for his sake. That's how Asha shows her consideration to others.
 
Open compassion, kind words, and a bit of praise though, are things she doesn't Know how to give, because they are things she doesn't expect from other people either. It all seems like trivialities to her, especially considering the scale of what she's been through, and the scale of what's at stake.
 
In contrast to her cold behavior though, which as I said is as much a force of habit than anything else, Asha cares deeply about Leez. Although she doesn't show it, she feels extremely guilty about what she's doing to her (chapter 91: "I'm sorry. I'm sorry. I'm so sorry."), has decided to take the harder path for her sake, even though she dedicated her whole life to her revenge (chapter 2-27), and even decided to die for her sake (chapter 2-24: Asha implies she won't be there soon). This is a lot, considering that she and Leez may fight in the future (chapter 2-10).
 
This brings us to our second point. Asha never planned to survive past her revenge from the start. However, she didn't just choose a path that's just dangerous, she chose a path where she's chosen to die. This is a completely different concept.
- In the flashback in chapter 2-21, she already said that she's willing to give up her life.
- In the flashback in chapter 2-10, Visnu told her that hoti Visnu will drain her existence away. Also, she knew that she had one of the lowest odds of winning, and most probably realized that she was only a pawn for Visnu to use. She took what she got anyway.
- Brilith seems to know about Asha. When Agni came back, Brilith's reason to live was "She can't be left all alone. If someone doesn't hold her here, she'll disappear."  
- In chapter 2-24, Asha basically reveals that she's specifically chosen to die in a way to allow Leez to live.
 
The thing is, the events she's facing are of an entirely different scale than what Leez is aware of. Leez still thinks that she just has to kill one nasty Sura that blew up her village. Asha, however, had her whole planet destroyed. Her opponents are Gods who can read minds and see the future, as well as entire armies of Sura. And Asha might be aware of what's at stake regarding the Power of the Name. Even humans may be her enemies (see how suspicious she is of Claude, for example). Asha has no true allies (at least Leez can rely on Asha, who can Asha rely on?), and no margin of error. A single mistake, and she, whose odds of winning were tiny to begin with, will die without accomplishing anything. But Leez is running around, doing whatever she wants, despite being a ticking time bomb. No wonder Asha is stressed.
 
Also, Leez, from her point of view, isn't that trustworthy either. She disappears from time to time, but it's obvious that she met up with God Kubera in the meantime. Now, God Kubera might be Asha's opponent, so Asha must have realized that God Kubera is using her to babysit the pawn that He's bringing up. I'd be pissed too if I were her.
 
So, Asha acts calm and composed, but she's actually under a Tremendous amount of stress. And she can't even talk about it to anyone else, something is preventing her from speaking. The parts that she probably Can speak of, she's purposely hiding it from Leez, but somehow this may have been the most merciful choice. Thanks to that, Leez can, for now at least, still lead a carefree life. But as a result, Asha took all the burden and stress upon herself. In chapter 2-27, she was finally able to talk a bit to Yuta, but she clearly acknowledged that she was "suffering in silence."
 
To sum it all up, Asha, as I said, seems like a jerk on the surface. But that is mostly force of habit, and doesn't properly reveal how much she really cares about the ones around her. The scale of the events she's facing, and the difficulty of her path, is something that most others around her can't begin to imagine, but by choice or by force, she can't share this burden with anyone else, and is shouldering everything by herself. As a result, Leez' carefree attitude is only piling more onto the tremendous amount of stress she's under. Yet for the sake of this Leez, who may one day turn against her, Asha is willing to take an even harder path. Asha may seem like a jerk, but she is truly doing a lot for Leez.
 
Edit: Another analogy: Asha makes me think of an adoptive mother whom everyone is scorning because she doesn't let her crying adoptive daughter out to play. What they don't realize is that said adoptive daughter has a terminal illness that will kill her if she runs around like that, and Asha isn't telling anyone, both because she partly can't, and because telling the girl will only make her more miserable. As a result, though, she has to deal with the girl and everyone else making life harder on her, when nobody realizes that she's already decided to take a surgery that will allow the girl to live longer in exchange for her own life.
 
Asha has shitty behavior, but a lot of that is due to force of habit. I think she doesn't Know how to be nice and compassionate, when the world she's faced was always so harsh and unforgiving. But the sacrifices she's making for Leez' sake are Immense.

Edited by Mizura, 10 November 2013 - 02:07 AM.

[fmatax]

Spoiler

Oh, Asha. At first glance Asha seems like a real jerk, but I think you have to realize two things to understand Asha:

1. She doesn't Know how to display affection.

2. She's already decided on a path that will lead to her death. Her entire existence is one of nihilism.

 

Asha lost everything from when she was 10, and since then, she dedicated her whole life to becoming stronger. Because of her overwhelming rise, she was the object of envy, and she most certainly never set aside time to socialize. As a result, she doesn't know how to be kind to others. She expects high standards from Leez, but the one she demands the most of is herself. I even wonder if her mother was cold to her too: in chapter 2-14, she says: "You'll find that you miss even this 'frigid attitude' of mine... when I am no longer with you." Was she speaking from experience?

 

A good analogy would be those authoritative grandfathers who were always overly strict with their children, leading them to suffer. But they later find out that the grandfather always did care deeply for his children, but truly didn't know any other way of displaying that affection. It's a bit like that with Asha. She was denied an environment that would teach her sensitivity and compassion. Just look at how she was like with Brilith during the exams.

 

The thing is, she does Try to be nice to Leez. When Leez complains too much about being hungry, she will mellow a bit and suggest eating too. In Atera, she considered Leez' present "received", and in Mistyshore, she was disappointed that Leez had already eaten, so couldn't eat with her. You also see this behavior with Brilith: when Brilith offered her the hat and said it looked good on her, she said she'd wear it always (before being discouraged to by everyone else). Let's just say that the book version also tells us how she got that skirt of hers, even though according to Riche, she hates skirts. She's like that with Ran, too: she engages in petty rivalry against him, but she hid the truth about her score for his sake. That's how Asha shows her consideration to others.

 

Open compassion, kind words, and a bit of praise though, are things she doesn't Know how to give, because they are things she doesn't expect from other people either. It all seems like trivialities to her, especially considering the scale of what she's been through, and the scale of what's at stake.

 

In contrast to her cold behavior though, which as I said is as much a force of habit than anything else, Asha cares deeply about Leez. Although she doesn't show it, she feels extremely guilty about what she's doing to her (chapter 91: "I'm sorry. I'm sorry. I'm so sorry."), has decided to take the harder path for her sake, even though she dedicated her whole life to her revenge (chapter 2-27), and even decided to die for her sake (chapter 2-14: Asha implies she won't be there soon). This is a lot, considering that she and Leez may fight in the future (chapter 2-10).

 

This brings us to our second point. Asha never planned to survive past her revenge from the start. However, she didn't just choose a path that's just dangerous, she chose a path where she's chosen to die. This is a completely different concept.

- In the flashback in chapter 2-21, she already said that she's willing to give up her life.

- In the flashback in chapter 2-10, Visnu told her that hoti Visnu will drain her existence away. Also, she knew that she had one of the lowest odds of winning, and most probably realized that she was only a pawn for Visnu to use. She took what she got anyway.

- Brilith seems to know about Asha. When Agni came back, Brilith's reason to live was "She can't be left all alone. If someone doesn't hold her here, she'll disappear."  

- In chapter 2-14, Asha basically reveals that she's specifically chosen to die in a way to allow Leez to live.

 

The thing is, the events she's facing are of an entirely different scale than what Leez is aware of. Leez still thinks that she just has to kill one nasty Sura that blew up her village. Asha, however, had her whole planet destroyed. Her opponents are Gods who can read minds and see the future, as well as entire armies of Sura. And Asha might be aware of what's at stake regarding the Power of the Name. Even humans may be her enemies (see how suspicious she is of Claude, for example). Asha has no true allies (at least Leez can rely on Asha, who can Asha rely on?), and no margin of error. A single mistake, and she, whose odds of winning were tiny to begin with, will die without accomplishing anything. But Leez is running around, doing whatever she wants, despite being a ticking time bomb. No wonder Asha is stressed.

 

Also, Leez, from her point of view, isn't that trustworthy either. She disappears from time to time, but it's obvious that she met up with God Kubera in the meantime. Now, God Kubera might be Asha's opponent, so Asha must have realized that God Kubera is using her to babysit the pawn that He's bringing up. I'd be pissed too if I were her.

 

So, Asha acts calm and composed, but she's actually under a Tremendous amount of stress. And she can't even talk about it to anyone else, something is preventing her from speaking. The parts that she probably Can speak of, she's purposely hiding it from Leez, but somehow this may have been the most merciful choice. Thanks to that, Leez can, for now at least, still lead a carefree life. But as a result, Asha took all the burden and stress upon herself. In chapter 2-27, she was finally able to talk a bit to Yuta, but she clearly acknowledged that she was "suffering in silence."

 

To sum it all up, Asha, as I said, seems like a jerk on the surface. But that is mostly force of habit, and doesn't properly reveal how much she really cares about the ones around her. The scale of the events she's facing, and the difficulty of her path, is something that most others around her can't begin to imagine, but by choice or by force, she can't share this burden with anyone else, and is shouldering everything by herself. As a result, Leez' carefree attitude is only piling more onto the tremendous amount of stress she's under. Yet for the sake of this Leez, who may one day turn against her, Asha is willing to take an even harder path. Asha may seem like a jerk, but she is truly doing a lot for Leez.

 

Edit: Another analogy: Asha makes me think of an adoptive mother whom everyone is scorning because she doesn't let her crying adoptive daughter out to play. What they don't realize is that said adoptive daughter has a terminal illness that will kill her if she runs around like that, and Asha isn't telling anyone, both because she partly can't, and because telling the girl will only make her more miserable. As a result, though, she has to deal with the girl and everyone else making life harder on her, when nobody realizes that she's already decided to take a surgery that will allow the girl to live longer in exchange for her own life.

 

Asha has shitty behavior, but a lot of that is due to force of habit. I think she doesn't Know how to be nice and compassionate, when the world she's faced was always so harsh and unforgiving. But the sacrifices she's making for Leez' sake are Immense.

 

thanks a lot for this post, i never liked asha i always thought of her as you say a jerk, but this put things on perspective...

 

[Ironandpeaches]

@Mizura, I think you mean chapter 2.24 instead of 2.14 in all the instances you referenced it. I just spent ten minutes looking at the magic exam score comparison chapter thinking I've been missing waaaaay too much of what characters were implying. 

[ayanchua]

@mizura I really love you! you're the walking book of knowledge when it comes to kubera haha I really agree with you on the part where Asha was telling Leez not to order any food, because it makes a fool out of those who want to eat with them. And by the end of this season asasdasdsaaasd 

Spoiler

I think that Asha will die -.-

[Locomoto]

Personally, I think Asha has a serious tsundere complex towards Leez. Asha sees Leez as both friend and enemy. Frienemy, if you may. I believe this is due to Asha's almost similar tragedy whereby her hometown was wiped out by Sura(s)/God(s) clashing. By meeting Leez in an almost similar setting, she feel for her. And this is further expanded by the fact Leez is very good in hiding her emotion. All the while, currygom gives some subtle hint that Asha does feel sorry for Leez.

 

To make things worse, Asha knows things about what's going to happen between the two and tries her best to deny rapport with Leez. She can't tell Leez either about this. Yea, I hate you Visnu, for spinning the tale and thus, making Asha and Leez both suffer. 

 

Not to mention Asha DOES consider Leez as her friend. I guess being lonely for so many years does build up the yearning for a friend. I look forward to the fight between Asha and Leez since they WILL clash in the end. 

Asha doesn't tell anything to Leez and cares for her, like a BFF. She just doesn't show that much of emotion. It was OOC of her to that, yet deep down she does care. And she dreads the upcoming fight with Leez. She tries she best to avoid Leez just so they don't be all chummy chummy and makes fighting her worse. But nope, she can't. Leez has too much of similarities to her. She can't turn a blind eye to it. Leez is her friend. Asha cared too much for Leez after all that they been through together. They've been through so much yet Asha still hasn't tell ANYTHING to Leez, which obviously makes Asha feels bad.

 

So is Asha a jerk? Nope, just a really conflicted lady who needs some love and does not deserve the suffering Visnu puts her in.

I HATE YOU VISNU

[svines85]

Overall Asha has been presented as a complex character who is acting in a manipulative way to further her (at present) mostly unknown goals.

 

It's possible to see her as the person who rescued, protected, and (somewhat) guided Leez up to this point in the story.......but it's also clear that almost everything she has done in this respect has actually been done for her own benefit and not for Leez. As I see things, Asha only did these things because Leez was a necessary part, a tool,  to further her plans. 

 

My guess is that from the beginning Asha intended to ultimately betray Leez and, whether Leez accepts it or not, her overall characterization will be that of one of the more notorious villains in the story. 

[Mizura]

Oops, thanks for picking on that, Ironandpeaches. Fixed. o,o;;

@Locomoto: yeah. It's easy to dismiss Asha as being a jerk, and saying she isn't being considerate to Leez. But who is being considerate to Her? When she is in such a difficult position herself, when she's suffering in silence, nobody is trying to make things easier on her.

svines85: rather, Asha initially intended to use Leez as just a tool, but I genuinely think that she cares about Leez now and wants to find a better outcome for her, even if it means taking a harder path. But this isn't easy for her to do at all. Even Claude, a human, is telling her to just abandon Leez.

Funny that you should characterize Asha as being a villain. I actually suspect that it is Leez that will in the future have the option of becoming the final villain.

[svines85]

svines85: rather, Asha initially intended to use Leez as just a tool, but I genuinely think that she cares about Leez now and wants to find a better outcome for her, even if it means taking a harder path. But this isn't easy for her to do at all. Even Claude, a human, is telling her to just abandon Leez.

Very possible, ultimately in this type of situation it's a matter of perception..........would she really be doing these things if they didn't benefit her. Much like what we recently saw with Teo and Gandharva, the final answer won't be known until some moment of truth is reached. 

 

And I really should have been more clear in my first post, that Asha's "overall characterization will eventually be that of one of the more notorious villains in the story".

[Mizura]

What you're saying doesn't mean much though. All of the characters are trying to accomplish things that'd "eventually benefit them," with varying degrees of regard to those they care about. Leez too is tagging along with Asha for her own benefit, both in terms of revenge and in terms of emotional needs as well. I would even say that Asha was caught off guard by how trusting Leez is of her. I'm pretty sure Asha didn't trust Visnu, but took what she got anyway. The fact that Leez is the way she is is perhaps even harder on Asha.

 

I do not believe Asha is the villain of this story. She isn't the one who killed Ananta, she isn't the one who blew up planet Carte, and she isn't the one who destroyed Leez' village. Even if she leaves Leez alone, Leez cannot have a happy ending on her own. It's easy to judge the characters in the series, but each decision must be compared to available alternatives. It's like how people are blaming Leez for sticking around and enduring the "abuse", but they forget that she's on the run with a city-destroying Sura out to get her. Where the heck is she supposed to go?

 

In Asha's case, I'd like to better know what's at stake before judging her. What if Asha's victory, for example, could prevent a repeat on Willarv of what happened to Carte? Is that why Claude is "helping" her? It's easy to say that revenge is bad, but sometimes, maybe it's meant to prevent worse things from happening. If Asha is aiming for something that will make things worse, though...

 

That asides...

 

 

 

thanks a lot for this post, i never liked asha i always thought of her as you say a jerk, but this put things on perspective...

It's not just Asha, all of the characters in Kubera are a function of their past, as well as the many influences they've encountered. Their personality is a clear mirror of the lives and philosophies they grew up with. Not only that, their knowledge, ability and decisions reflect these as well. This is unlike many series nowadays where the past is only an afterthought in regards to the character's personality (with only relatively shallow connections like "he's a jerk because [insert stupid reason]." Gandharva, for example, reflects a mix of his old, cruel personality and a strong influence from Menaka, plus his recent trauma of having lost everything. Leez was brought up as an ignorant country girl and behaves and knows as much as one. Yuta is a very curious mix of his Chaos nature and Shuri's influence (very curious because he finds excuses around it, like how he purposely pretends to be weak to bait prey into attacking first). Like Asha, God Kubera seems like a total jerk, but the things at stake here are enormous, can he really afford to go easy on one little girl? Even Sagara's behavior becomes more understandable when you realize that she grew up in a world where pacifism has led clans to ruin and where atrocities and hypocrisies are committed in the name of "Justice" and other "nice" concepts.

 

Once you are aware of the larger context these characters are evolving in, you start to see them in a different light. With other series, a character may often seem cool and deep at first, but once you dig a little the character is actually quite shallow. But it's the opposite with Kubera's characters. The more you dig, the more you see there's more to them.

Edited by Mizura, 10 November 2013 - 06:17 AM.

[svines85]

What you're saying doesn't mean much though. 

well then, I'll make things a little more clear.

 

"What do you think of Asha?" 

 

I think Asha is a scumbag who plotted from the start to first present herself to Leez as her "savior" and has been fattening her up ever since in order to make her a sacrificial lamb when the time comes. 

 

there we go, I suppose I shouldn't have tried to be as politically correct to begin with and just told it like I see it.  

[ayanchua]

"What do you think of Asha?" 

 

I think Asha is a scumbag who plotted from the start to first present herself to Leez as her "savior" and has been fattening her up ever since in order to make her a sacrificial lamb when the time comes. 

   I really laugh hard reading your opinon of her Every time I read Kubera, I always have in mind the words in the prologue of the season 2 This is a war with no villains, only victims... and a story where in the end someone will have to cry. It's much easier to understand the characters in this perspective, even Sagara who I want to kill every time she appears. Ughhhh but seriously does this have a tragedy in the tag because I don't think that I'll survive when this web comic is finish @.@

[Mizura]

lol, okay. Then I'll put it this way. -Both- Asha and Leez are sacrificial lambs.

Both are fattening themselves up with the explicit understanding that it's for their respective revenges.

Asha isn't demanding anything of Leez that she isn't willing to give up herself. Asha was willing to throw everything away for revenge, and she likely assumed that Leez would be the same.

 

This is a story where people aren't on the same side, but will become temporary allies as long as their interests are temporarily aligned. Asha likely intended things to be this way with Leez, too, but Leez decided she wanted to be friends with Asha. Asha isn't lying about helping Leez get revenge though, she even told Yuta that it's their aim after getting the Sword of Re.

 

I'd like to point out that Asha never presented herself as being benevolent in the first place. Leez decided that on her own. Asha's even "wait a minute, why aren't you more suspicious of me?" She hardly ever put up the pretense of being a good person (she told Leez not to bother with that Half at first, she didn't show any worry when Yuta was taken away by Taraka, she zaps Leez regularly).

Edited by Mizura, 10 November 2013 - 11:08 AM.

[Locomoto]

@svines85 - Asha a villain? A benevolent saviour in disguise? Why? She was shown to have a pretty sad childhood. She has only one arm. She was shown to be thoughtful and caring! Rather than villain, I would say she is forced to the way she is now. She's not a bad seed! 

[svines85]

@svines85 - Asha a villain? A benevolent saviour in disguise? Why? She was shown to have a pretty sad childhood. She has only one arm. She was shown to be thoughtful and caring! Rather than villain, I would say she is forced to the way she is now. She's not a bad seed! 

See?! You've been taken in just like Leez was at first.........course Leez has started figuring things out quite a bit since then, someone attempting to choke you to death is usually a pretty good "heads-up" they might not be all that sweet underneath.

 

And I'm not sure anyone has ever tried to defend Asha as "thoughtful and caring".......sure as heck not any of those couple-dozen or so confirmed kills she's got under her belt.   O_O

 

[Locomoto]

See?! You've been taken in just like Leez was at first.........course Leez has started figuring things out quite a bit since then, someone attempting to choke you to death is usually a pretty good "heads-up" they might not be all that sweet underneath.

 

And I'm not sure anyone has ever tried to defend Asha as "thoughtful and caring".......sure as heck not any of those couple-dozen or so confirmed kills she's got under her belt.   O_O

 

 

As I said, she's forced. She doesn't want to choke Leez at all. Leez came to that conclusion cos she doesn't know what happened to Asha before they met. So yea.

[svines85]

As I said, she's forced. She doesn't want to choke Leez at all. Leez came to that conclusion cos she doesn't know what happened to Asha before they met. So yea.

Haha! Ah well, we'll see in time I suppose........I'm hoping Leez kicks the sourpuss  to the curb pretty soon though.  

[Paraph]

Asha is a complex character. She is cruel and caring, manipulative and admirable. Do I damn her? No. Do I excuse her for her cruelty and say she's just a pitiful person who needs help? No. If I simply label her as good or bad it would limit my ability to understand who she is, in every moment she is portrayed. Whatever she ultimately decides to do with herself is for her to decide. As long as I can continue to understand her, that's enough.
 

 

Haha! Ah well, we'll see in time I suppose........I'm hoping Leez kicks the sourpuss  to the curb pretty soon though.  

 

Clearly the mangaka has done an amazing job with Asha if she can cause such a hateful reaction. Strong responses, like a need to degrade another, usually comes from a personal history of emotional distress. I even find your comments very Asha-like; maybe this is a stretch? Either way, It's important to look at those you hate since it reveals much about yourself. 

[svines85]

Clearly the mangaka has done an amazing job with Asha if she can cause such a hateful reaction. Strong responses, like a need to degrade another, usually comes from a personal history of emotional distress. I even find your comments very Asha-like; maybe this is a stretch? Either way, It's important to look at those you hate since it reveals much about yourself. 

Hahaha!! Oh my goodness.......... yeah, I remember my first psychology class, I thought I knew just everything that everybody was thinking.

 

You'll do well to leave me out of your amateur attempts at psychoanalysis friend, this is a freaking comic book we're talking about..........a work of fiction........and that's about how seriously I at least take it.  

 

Oh and by the way, just to stay "on topic".........I still think Asha's a jerk.

Edited by svines85, 12 November 2013 - 08:18 AM.

[SilverAlex]

 

well then, I'll make things a little more clear.

 

"What do you think of Asha?" 

 

I think Asha is a scumbag who plotted from the start to first present herself to Leez as her "savior" and has been fattening her up ever since in order to make her a sacrificial lamb when the time comes. 

 

there we go, I suppose I shouldn't have tried to be as politically correct to begin with and just told it like I see it.  

 

 

 

Well. My personal theory is that when carte was about to be destroyed, Rao (leez dad) saved Asha and in return asked that if she ever meet a girl named kubera protect that girl. Proof: Leez remind her of him. And the only time we know for sure that Rao went to carte was to help the last evacuations. Also I think that he either was who summoned vayu, or used some kind of transcendental that cost him a lot of his lifeforce, which would explain him crying about wishing to see his daughter one more time on the ship returning from carte. 

So while asha is a jerk, she really wants to protect leez, at first as a gratitude towards the man who saved her life and latter because she empathized with her and started to care for her