261 replies to this topic

[kendama]

But that's assuming he has ever been level 1, right? But he seems to have become a Gamer at level 3 (it said in chapter one he had levelled up only once since becoming like that). Also, it's entirely possible that he had a fixed amount of HP up to, say, level 3 (50 HP) and then got his first 50 HP increment when he reached level 4.

 

One reason I don't like increasing rates (first 25, then 50 and so on) is that they are found in exponentials and related functions, which are explosive laws. Jee-han would become ridiculously overpowered in no time (or at least nearly impossible to kill). But of course, the rate may become arbitrarily fixed after reaching a certain level, thus avoiding the explosion.

 

As for his MP, I also prefer to believe that the progression is non-linear, and influenced by changing his stats and acquiring skills and items.

[NainIlleven]

But that's assuming he has ever been level 1, right? But he seems to have become a Gamer at level 3 (it said in chapter one he had levelled up only once since becoming like that). Also, it's entirely possible that he had a fixed amount of HP up to, say, level 3 (50 HP) and then got his first 50 HP increment when he reached level 4.

 

Wild speculations:

 

Before his birth he was level 0 [Hp:0|Mp:0]

 

When he was born he was level 1 [Hp:25|Mp:0]

 

He grew up

 

Level 2 [Hp:50|Mp:25]

 

and learned stuff as his skills increased he reached level 3 where he started his life as <<THE GAMER>>

[kendama]

Edited to reflect recent changes:

 

Spoiler

Han Jee-han

The Gamer

Level 9

 

Power class: Shinin (highest, or rarest, in the Chunbumoon rank system, apparently)

 

Health Points: 250

     - recovery rate: 5.5 HP per minute

Mana Points: 150

     - recovery rate: 1.1 MP per minute

 

Strength: 17 (+20%)

Vitality: 17 (+20%)

Dexterity: 13 (+20%)

Intelligence: 17 (+10%)

Wisdom: 6 (+10%)

Luck: 9

 

Money: 3000 won

 

Points: 12

 

Passive only skills:

 

A Gamer's body: Level MAX

A Gamer's mind: Level MAX

Physical endurance: Level 2                                                                         

Blunt weapon mastery: Level 5

 

Active only skills:

 

Observe: Level 2                                                                                           

Rip: Level 1

Power strike: Level 3

Energy bolt: Level 1

Instant Dungeon escape: Level 1

Instant Dungeon create: Level 1

YunHon Soul Recovery: Level 1

 

Passive and active skills:

 

Chunbu Spirit Technique: Level 1

Chunbu Sword Technique: Level 1

Chunbu Martial Arts Technique: Level 1

Chunbu Foot Technique: Level 1

Chunbu Outer Technique: Level 1

 

Titles:

Apprentice Undead Hunter (Equipped) - 30%+ Attack and Defense when attacking Undead. 5+ in all Stat points, when attacking Undead.

 

Inventory:

 

- Aluminium bat

- Medicines for mouth inflammation, external injury (+5 HP) and drowsiness;

- Soul Stone

 

Current as of Chapter 14.

 

Comments on older level-ups or on assumptions that became moot or were dismissed by commentators have been hidden under spoiler tags.

 

Spoiler

Interestingly, belonging to a class seems to imply some kind of hierarchical position or rank, but is not a predictor of how much power a given person actually has in a given moment. Jee-han seems to be higher ranked, but much less powerful than old man Sun-oh. Maybe the class indicates a power ceiling, i.e. how powerful a person can get given a certain ability.

 

So this explains why those third-rank ability users and Sun-il got beaten so easily by Sung-gon: maybe their actual levels weren't that high despite their rank. Maybe Sun-il himself is ranked Ren despite being just level 28 and thus weaker than Sae-young, who is also Phantom like the other two.

 

Also, Jee-han may have different class names when ranked by other clans, as this division seems exclusive of Chunbumoon.

 

I have added the passive changes on his stats using the following assumptions:

 

i. Since 10% increments result in fractionary values, I've assumed these are possible, although we have never seem them before.

 

ii. Increments are cumulative. Thus two 10% increments (like in his STR from Chunbu Spirit and Chunbu Outer Techniques, for example) amount to 21%. So STR=15*1.21 + 2=20.15 and so on.

 

(The authors have used strange maths before - like that time when they reached 21.5 in attack power when no juggling with the numbers could achieve that value. So maybe we will just have to wait for another glimpse of his stats window to be sure.)

 

Now, what do you think? Should I add a description of the active effects of the new techniques next to them, or would that clutter the skill list?

 

Finally, there seems to be something strange with the terminology. It talks of VIT recovery rate, but VIT is a stat value, it doesn't go up or down with damage, right? (Remember that I don't play games, I'm also an out-of-date barbarian). So I'm assuming that VIT recovery is the same as HP recovery (as HP reflects one's health). And I'm assuming that "stamina recovery" is the same as MP recovery, because Jee-han needs rest when his MP goes down to zero. Also, things like attack speed and strength haven't been assigned parameters in the stats window, so I don't think we need to write about them.

 

I think we need to strike a balance of a table that is accurate (or if accuracy is impossible due to incomplete information, reliable) and detailed, but not difficult to read.

Edited by kendama, 14 December 2013 - 07:35 PM.

[Lunari]

By what I comprehended, that power class means how "rare"or "powerful" his inherent ability, is (in his case, the gamer).

It isn't compared in terms of "power" as in it does more damage than others, but as in how much it can do/surpass "natural levels".


As in, someone that doesn't has a natural ability but had acquired ones would be human.
If that person, surpasses the human limits, then it's... What was the word used? Youkai? Yoma?
(I wonder if this can be done with only acquired abilities)
Anyway...

But if someone has a natural ability and one that already bends the human limits, then the person may start as youkai our even phantom. But it doesn't means he is stronger than the person before, that trained a lot and had more skills, stats, combat experience and etc.

It'd would be more like a base floor than a ceiling, I guess?

Well, That's what I gather, though. "

[The Corinthian]

You people realize that in games, your amount of HP and MP per level depends not only on your level but also on your stats. Strength and Vitality tends to increase the amount of HP you get per level. And Intelligence increases the amount if mana you get. He have raised all these stats lately. There seem to be some kind of threshold were the amount of mana and HP have to be in wholes of tens and I have not really looked through the manwha yet to see if it is mathematically feasible. But it is probably true.

[bkaa22]

Will Han Jee-han be able to get multiple titles? Unrelated to the Undead?

[JackApostrophe]

Will Han Jee-han be able to get multiple titles? Unrelated to the Undead?

 

Almost certainly yes. But he'll probably only be able to equip a single title at a time. Normally that's the case, though if you look hard enough you can find exceptions to almost anything.

[bkaa22]

Almost certainly yes. But he'll probably only be able to equip a single title at a time. Normally that's the case, though if you look hard enough you can find exceptions to almost anything.

 

That would be cool. Basically creating specialization for situations.

[bkaa22]

I'm surprised that some of Han Jee-han's skills haven't gone up when he killed all of those zombies. In his first encounter with zombies he killed around 5, and he gained the Undead Hunter title after killing 50 zombies meaning in his 2nd encounter he killed 45 zombies. Other than the first zombie, it didn't look like he used Power Strike a lot, mainly Energy bolt. I thought, especially when gaining 2 levels his Energy Bolt level would have increased and his Blunt Weapon Mastery. At the very least those skills should be at the brink of going to the next one.

[kendama]

I'm surprised that some of Han Jee-han's skills haven't gone up when he killed all of those zombies. In his first encounter with zombies he killed around 5, and he gained the Undead Hunter title after killing 50 zombies meaning in his 2nd encounter he killed 45 zombies. Other than the first zombie, it didn't look like he used Power Strike a lot, mainly Energy bolt. I thought, especially when gaining 2 levels his Energy Bolt level would have increased and his Blunt Weapon Mastery. At the very least those skills should be at the brink of going to the next one.

Maybe they have but it hasn't been shown. The authors are not showing every levelling up when it happens. Sometimes there are small time skips and we only learn later that he has levelled up (like in the beginning of chapter six). The table only includes changes when they are confirmed, but it is entirely possible that Jee-han is already stronger.

 

I have updated the table on comment #43, so I'll gladly welcome suggestions and corrections.

Edited by kendama, 08 December 2013 - 01:18 AM.

[bkaa22]

Maybe they have but it hasn't been shown. The authors are not showing every levelling up when it happens. Sometimes there are small time skips and we only learn later that he has levelled up (like in the beginning of chapter six). The table only includes changes when they are confirmed, but it is entirely possible that Jee-han is already stronger.

 

I have updated the table on comment #43, so I'll gladly welcome suggestions and corrections.

 

About his attributes . . .  since his strength is 15 and is going up by at least 1.2% that would equal 18. Unless I'm missing some unknown factor.

[Culaio29]

I must say that I am disappointed that there are skills he can't learn because he is blocked by another skill her already learned, I am still hoping he will be able to learn it somehow in the future because generally in games when you learn skil(skill set) that blocks out another skill(skill set) you have additional warning that you won't be able to learn other skill set, in his case there was no additional warning when he learned skill that blocked this skill also the warning said that it may have negative effect on him and not that it will affect him negativly. And lets not forget that frequently in manga character combine opposite powers to create even greater power, like for example: in negima mana and chi was combined to create greater power.I think its possible that main character will be able to learn this skill later when he gains skill that will let him merge those powers. 

[kendama]

About his attributes . . .  since his strength is 15 and is going up by at least 1.2% that would equal 18. Unless I'm missing some unknown factor.

You are. Look at the chapter again. He got two 10% increments in strength (also in VIT and DEX). But two 10% increments equal 1.1 x 1.1 = 1.21, thus 21%. But he also got two full points due to the set stats effect that was triggered when he learned all the basic skills. So 15 x 1.21 plus two equal 20.15.

 

@Culaio: I think the authors may be trying to avoid making him too overpowered (at least too soon).

Edited by kendama, 08 December 2013 - 01:46 AM.

[bkaa22]

You are. Look at the chapter again. He got two 10% increments in strength (also in VIT and DEX). But two 10% increments equal 1.1 x 1.1 = 1.21, thus 21%. But he also got two full points due to the set stats effect that was triggered when he learned all the basic skills. So 15 x 1.21 plus two equal 20.15.

 

@Culaio: I think the authors may be trying to avoid making him too overpowered (at least too soon).

 

 

You are right. Completely missed that. But if his stats get a plus 2 increase wouldn't his base score be 17 and then he receives the 1.21% increase? Of course, it wouldn't be that much of an increase only to 20.57. Shouldn't it go base score * any modifiers?

[Culaio29]

@kendama

 

This chapter kinda contradicts it, since he got LOTS of free power even though he didn't have to >_>(attribute increase from learning whole skill set, isn't that frequent in games >_>).

 

Also if he really wanted to use game "rules" to prevent him from being overpowered then main character should get warning when learning first skill that blocked next one(like it happens normally in games) also warning wouldn't say that it may affect him negativly but that it will affect him negativly.

[kendama]

@bkaa22: No, because addition and multiplication are noncommutative between them. He got the 10% increments first, so they operated on his then current stats (STR was 15 by then). Only later did he get the two points. So it's partially a matter of luck: if his STR had been 50 when he got the books, his 10% increment would have been a full five points. (Of course, the relative importance of five points for someone who has an STR of 50 is exactly the same as of 1.5 point for someone who has an STR of 15, but you get my point.) 

[atwitchyferret]

@kendama I'm pretty sure the multiplication is added on last. It's not like the skills are set at that level for good. He got 2 free stat points for learning all of the skills and then the multiplier kicks in, because I can't believe that the spirit technique would add a flat amount of power dependent on when the person learned it. So it doesn't matter if he had got it earlier or later, when he gets to 50 STR, it will act like it was 55 but he will have to deal with the 1.5 he gets earlier on.

[Olinser]

@bkaa22: No, because addition and multiplication are noncommutative between them. He got the 10% increments first, so they operated on his then current stats (STR was 15 by then). Only later did he get the two points. So it's partially a matter of luck: if his STR had been 50 when he got the books, his 10% increment would have been a full five points. (Of course, the relative importance of five points for someone who has an STR of 50 is exactly the same as of 1.5 point for someone who has an STR of 15, but you get my point.) 

 

That is not how stats and bonuses work in ANY game, with the exception of special one-time stat increasing items or events. These are neither - they are passive skills.

 

Passive skill bonuses are ALWAYS constantly updated from the base value.

 

If he had a strength of 100, and got a 10% bonus, his modified strength is now 110. If he were to increase his base strength to 110, his modified strength is now 121.

 

Now, the REAL question, is whether the different bonuses stack additively or are multiplicative.

 

i.e., if he has a 10% bonus, and a 30% bonus, is his total bonus 40% (the calculation is [(Base Value) * (1+0.1+0.3)] = Base Value * 1.4), or is the bonus 43% (the calculation is Base Value * 1.1 * 1.3 = Base Value * 1.43).

 

If the first case, it doesn't really matter whether he acquires new skills or raises current skills. But if the calculation is multipicative, he gets a LOT more benefit from acquiring a wide variety of passive bonuses, because they start to stack very quickly.

 

For example, if it is the first case, it doesn't matter if he gets 3 new 10% bonuses, or increases his current 10% bonus to a 40% bonus, the end result will be an increase of 30% of the base value.

 

But, if it is the second case, and he acquires 3 new 10% bonus skills, it means that they now give a new bonus of 33.1%, while increasing a previous skill just gives that 30% bonus. And the extra % will only increase the more skills he acquires.

Edited by Olinser, 08 December 2013 - 02:36 AM.

[winebat]

Ahh i think I know why, he can't learn that second skill. In the ch11, he mentioned that in video games if someone learns more than 2 different ki, something bad would happen. I think since he learn that healing and his friend's clan skill, he can't learn the 2nd skill cause it was different ki and he already has two. 

[fettson]

@bkaa22: No, because addition and multiplication are noncommutative between them. He got the 10% increments first, so they operated on his then current stats (STR was 15 by then). Only later did he get the two points. So it's partially a matter of luck: if his STR had been 50 when he got the books, his 10% increment would have been a full five points. (Of course, the relative importance of five points for someone who has an STR of 50 is exactly the same as of 1.5 point for someone who has an STR of 15, but you get my point.) 

 

Do we really have enough information to tell how these values are calculated? For example both of the % based increases from skills are able to level up. So if say cunbo spirit technique levels up and the percentage goes from 10% to 11% then the new 11% can not calculate from the old strength value of 15, right? I think possible some possible calcualations are:

 

([Base Str]+[Skill set effect])*(1+[ Cunbo Spirit Technique]+[Outer Ki Technique]) =20.4   If the stat increase from the skillset effect is permanent, which i dont think since its an "effect" 

[Base Str]*(1+[ Cunbo Spirit Technique]+[Outer Ki Technique])+[Skill set effect] = 20        If the skill set effect is treated like a bonus increase and not a permanent one

([Base Str]+[Skill set effect])*((1+[ Cunbo Spirit Technique])*(1+[Outer Ki Technique])) = 20.57 I think is least likely since percentage based modifers usually NEVER stack on eachother.

 

However we chose to calculate this, it still seems his strength is about 20.

 

Another strange thing is that Outer Ki Technique increases stamina recovery rate by 10%. But since when did he use stamina as a stat?

 

About the funky 13 + 150% = 22,5 calculation in ch 6 the real formula is probably ((13*0.83)+(13*2*0.17))*1.5 = 22.815 which is the average dmg after we factor in critical hits. (which the author forgot to mention). Later we might need to factor in attackspeed modifiers like the ones he got now.

 

Edit. I think this might be obvious but i really hope he puts the skillbooks he cant use right now in his inventory for later use. For example the elder said its ok to teach the basics to outsiders, but the Chunbo divine technique does not seem like a basic skill and he could use it as soon as he hits 90 INT.

Edited by fettson, 08 December 2013 - 03:04 AM.