72 replies to this topic

[figureLP09]

IMO because Ueno liked Ishida,  she herself became a bully just to be closer to him. I do believe she's an ass, don't get me wrong, but I don't think she's evil.

[Zechery0]

IMO because Ueno liked Ishida,  she herself became a bully just to be closer to him. I do believe she's an ass, don't get me wrong, but I don't think she's evil.

 

Very true. Plus it is two birds with one stone as Nishimiya is her rival in Ishida's affections.

Edited by Zechery0, 13 February 2014 - 06:55 PM.

[Evan Dark]

I will be really pissed of, if in the end Ishida will get along either with Kawai, Ueno, or Shimada. I don't want and happy ending where everyone gets along well. It'd be f*cking silly.

 

Bullying is one thing, kids do that often. but Kawai, Ueno and Shimada are traitorous bastards, and there is no reason Ishida should forgive them.

 

If you read the one-shot or the first chapter, they were the 3 other kids that turned on Ishida, when they had the chance. Ueno already had her introduction, Shimada's is going on, and it seems that Kawai remained in Ishida's class, so she will have her story too. After that all 3 traitors are assembled, and the main plot can begin.

 

I hope it turns out to be something like Übel Blatt, where Ishida "returns the favour" for the other three. But I take anything but a meaningless "everyone, let's be friends" ending.

[Cake-kun]

I will be really pissed of, if in the end Ishida will get along either with Kawai, Ueno, or Shimada. I don't want and happy ending where everyone gets along well. It'd be f*cking silly.

 

Bullying is one thing, kids do that often. but Kawai, Ueno and Shimada are traitorous bastards, and there is no reason Ishida should forgive them.

 

If you read the one-shot or the first chapter, they were the 3 other kids that turned on Ishida, when they had the chance. Ueno already had her introduction, Shimada's is going on, and it seems that Kawai remained in Ishida's class, so she will have her story too. After that all 3 traitors are assembled, and the main plot can begin.

 

I hope it turns out to be something like Übel Blatt, where Ishida "returns the favour" for the other three. But I take anything but a meaningless "everyone, let's be friends" ending.

It probably wouldn't be meaningless because in long term goal, that's what Shouko wants. For her to be getting along with everyone, along with Ishida.

Of course, he doesn't have to. But the way this is going, it's boy attempting to make even with the world, one way or another (suicide -> redemption so). It may have ending people don't want.

 

If anything is seen as reflection, best revenge he can have on Ueno is going out with Shouko, or of smallest matter, confessing to her and getting accepted.

I can't say much about Shimada and other 2 boys who set him up in the end.

Or even for Kawai.

Though of course, by no means Kawai was an innocent bystander.

 

Though, I don't know why but I would feel bad for Ueno. I can't seem to hate her entirely.

Edited by Cake-kun, 20 February 2014 - 04:32 AM.

[inzaratha]

Usually being the bigger man means walking away so I don't want him to get back at them unless they do something to Nishimiya.     I bet that Ueno said something horrible to her on that ride though judging by the look on her face or told her to stay away from him or something, it's just something she would do.    I was sort of glad the x came back on Ueno's face. 

[Evan Dark]

Usually being the bigger man means walking away so I don't want him to get back at them unless they do something to Nishimiya.     I bet that Ueno said something horrible to her on that ride though judging by the look on her face or told her to stay away from him or something, it's just something she would do.    I was sort of glad the x came back on Ueno's face. 

 

I think Ueno asked for something like Nishimiya's support for her and Ishida, and Nishimiya "told" her that the game is on. Something along those lines.

 

I don't necessary want Ishida to be the bigger man. Ishida has grown up a lot, he learned it the hard way, what's it like to be bullied, and just how empty his "friends" were. In contrast the others didn't grow up at all, and Ueno still thinks Ishida is the same troublemaker he was before too. But despite everything, Ishida is still just a kid, so he should act like one.

 

What I find interesting is, when Ishida talks to Kawai, she doesn't really ignores him or anything, she treats him like they are friends. This confirms that after Ueno and Shimada moved away he wasn't really bullied or anything but he still chose to isolate himself from the others. I don't think Ishida was ever bullied as hard as Nishimiya, after all Kawai, Uenno, and the others even managed to forget somehow, that they had bullied him; rather than, it was the shock from all his friends betraying him, that led to him give up on human relations.

[inzaratha]

So she got slapped for refusing to say she hated Ueno too.   wow.   Ueno  -  geez, talk about her feeling justified about her behavior. 

[Yaomo]

i actually found that slap rather impressive.

some people have been  woken up from depression by a slap like that, but what will happen to nishimiya...

 

hating herself is not a good solution at least. but maybe she really needs to be treated like just another person, on equal terms. at least ueno doesn't do any victim blaming here. she doesn't say it's mishimiya's own fault that she was bullied, ueno really thinks there was some sort of equal exchange of cruelty between them.

 

a totally warped way of thinking, but much easier to relate to than those who would treat nishimiya as a helpless victim who can never grow strong enough to defend herself and thus we all have a responsibility to protect her from any and all kinds of hurt.

 

this might actually turn out good one way or the other, as people finally start to realize that the girl doesn't blame others because she's always blamed herself. gives ishida a lot more to hate himself for if he thinks about it too deeply though...

[Bacchai]

So she got slapped for refusing to say she hated Ueno too.   wow.   Ueno  -  geez, talk about her feeling justified about her behavior. 

 

I really like this manga, because the author is avoiding shortcuts as much as possible.

 

Ueno is a very interesting character, I think. 

Ishida was somehow forced into redemption, because he was bullied himself in such a bad way, because of his loneliness all these five years, and the despise of the whole community, the kids and the adults. But, for the other kids in the class, the path out of the "Nishimiya incident" in elementary school seemed easy : they were'nt "punished" by the subsequent events, and they had the majority of the class with them.

 

Something that fascinates me is the ability of the human mind to "rewrite" past events in a way that is acceptable for it. It is actually a survival instinct, and a necessary process in order to deal with a traumatic experience. But we do that all the time. Then you add the fact that the offender easily forgets the offense when the offended can't. I have this example from my own : I dated a girl once, and met her years afterwards. I was happy to see her and greeted her. She looked at me with resentment and told me how much of a jerk I was. And I didn't understand, so she told me I ditched at that time, that I wouldn't return her calls and such. I was surprised. I remembered that I had too much work and didn't have the time and things went through and forgot about her. But thinking about it afterwards, I realised how it was. When we dated I was stoned, and felt dumb and disrespectful to her. So out of guilt, I actually avoided her. Being too busy was just a lame and easy excuse I told myself even at the time. And then, from my point of view, avoiding someone was that such a big deal ? Yet, for her, it wasn't, and she was right, because to her it meant that after the date I didn't like her and didn't have the guts to tell her. See, I can't even tell now if I disliked her or not. I certainly wasn't that much into her, but my only thoughts are the shame of being that dumb during our date.

 

So what is interesting in Ueno's character is that it tells us the point of view of the other guys in the story. We readers at best are neutral, but more realistically root for the bullied, so when she tells Nishimiya it is her fault, we just can't accept it, Ueno seems so self-absorbed. Thing is kids are selfish, and yeah a deaf kid was a bother, and it was easy to pick on her, whilst they didn't realise any of the consequences at that time. But, can you really live on thinking "I may have destroyed her life" ? You can't (oh well Ishida is the case of someone who does, but there needed these special circumstances where he couldn't avoid it), so you convince yourself it really was her fault after all. 

 

Now, what is really nice with Ueno from a storytelling point of view is that without her the story would be boring by now (or at least very predictable), because Ishida would just try his best to deserve forgiveness, and he would live in a bubble with a few friends, and the only question left would be as to whether or not Ishida and Nishimiya would fall in love with each other.

As you saw Shimada's reaction when meeting Ishida : he just doesn't want to deal with him. That would mean confronting the past, and having to deal with a guilt he buried deep inside. But, since Ueno had/has a crush on Ishida, she doesn't give up. Still, she doesn't want to deal with guilt either, so she tries to convince Ishida that bullying Nishimiya was ok, and if not, at least putting the bullying of Ishida on the same level as the bullying of Nishimiya, in order to make Ishida to forgive her.

 

Now my hope is that the author deals with Ueno with subtlety. I don't want her to easily redeem herself, I hope the manga carries on with the same level of complexity.

Edited by Bacchai, 26 February 2014 - 04:45 PM.

[Evan Dark]

Wow I was totally wrong, on what happened on the Ferris Wheel.

 

Ueno is definitely an interesting character. Still a traitor though, but I'm kinda staring to see her reasoning, even if it's warped. She didn't bullied Shouko, because everyone else did, or because it was funny. She acknowledged her as her enemy, and bullied her for that reason alone.

 

To me it seems Ishida bullied Nishimiya, because he was searching for some kind of connection with her. Ueno liked Ishida, so she probably felt threatened by her, and Nishimiya is pretty much Ueno's love rival, now more than ever.

[ohdear]

Yeah, I think Ueno is interesting in the sense that I don't think her hatred for Nishimiya really had much to do with Nishimiya being deaf.  Ueno genuinely hates her.  In a way, this is cool because she's not treating Nishimiya like a helpless, infantile victim which is how people tend to treat the disabled.  Ueno still shouldn't have slapped her, but its going to be awesome to see how her character gets redeemed considering all the inner conflict Ueno must be dealing with.  Also as a result, I hope Nishimiya learns to be bolder too because I'd really like to see her come out of her shell.

[jassen]

Yeah, I think Ueno is interesting in the sense that I don't think her hatred for Nishimiya really had much to do with Nishimiya being deaf.  Ueno genuinely hates her.  In a way, this is cool because she's not treating Nishimiya like a helpless, infantile victim which is how people tend to treat the disabled.  Ueno still shouldn't have slapped her, but its going to be awesome to see how her character gets redeemed considering all the inner conflict Ueno must be dealing with.  Also as a result, I hope Nishimiya learns to be bolder too because I'd really like to see her come out of her shell.

 

I still think Ueno sees her as "that deaf (read: inferior) girl that took Ishida away" and bases her bullying on that. She knows that it's far easier for them to communicate on a sheet of paper, but refuses to because it doesn't "convey any feelings", which is utter bullshit. It places Nishimiya in a context where she can't respond to Ueno's reasoning easily (because she has to interpret and speak a 2nd language she can't even hear very well).  If Ueno wants to them to respect each other on "mutual hatred" there needs to actually be some sense of equality.

 

Ueno also keeps dropping reasons why her reasons for bullying Nishimiya were justified, and they're all about her trying to relate to hearing people and getting shot down. You shouldn't treat disabled people like they need to be coddled, but ignoring a deaf person's writing is like taking someone's glasses and telling them they need to learn how to navigate in a super-blurry world.

[Cake-kun]

I still think Ueno sees her as "that deaf (read: inferior) girl that took Ishida away" and bases her bullying on that. She knows that it's far easier for them to communicate on a sheet of paper, but refuses to because it doesn't "convey any feelings", which is utter bullshit. It places Nishimiya in a context where she can't respond to Ueno's reasoning easily (because she has to interpret and speak a 2nd language she can't even hear very well). If Ueno wants to them to respect each other on "mutual hatred" there needs to actually be some sense of equality.

Ueno also keeps dropping reasons why her reasons for bullying Nishimiya were justified, and they're all about her trying to relate to hearing people and getting shot down. You shouldn't treat disabled people like they need to be coddled, but ignoring a deaf person's writing is like taking someone's glasses and telling them they need to learn how to navigate in a super-blurry world.

the irony is that and that purely; by losing ability to hear and talk like a regular person, she became more open by heart but also more frail as a character. Notice how I didn't say "weak" however. It takes a lot in it to accept things out of a person.

Ishida was, even if twisted in some ways, at least true to Nishimiya throughout the story. If we are to look at him in that retrospect, and even though it's an overjustification, I think I would just add and say Ishida had no faults at all. After all, first chapter shows this clearly; while that boy's older brother was beating up Ishida, what were his friends doing? Running, of course...

No matter what justification Ueno attempts to make, there are some things you should never be forgiven for. I won't have to spell it out for you guys to have you guys agree to me, hopefully. I hate to say it but I do hope Ishida never forgives them, even if Nishimiya does in the end...

Edited by Cake-kun, 04 March 2014 - 08:02 PM.

[rabidduck18]

i actually found that slap rather impressive.

some people have been  woken up from depression by a slap like that, but what will happen to nishimiya...

You probably shouldn't slap a person for having depression.

[Pandora]

Really good chapter, this might help me to see Ueno in a different light... I really liked that Shouya started to compliment Nishimiya (it was so cute to see her blushing)

[inzaratha]

They are all being too nice about it, it was unrealistic honestly.   I know about turn the other cheek and all that but still really.   

[Yaomo]

it might be that the whole "i hate myself" made them unable to react because they were already too shocked from that. the little sister could have been a little more angry, but the boy doesn't feel like he has any right to meddle in other people's affairs, and has pretty much forgotten how to interact with people in a "normal" way.

[ohdear]

I still think Ueno sees her as "that deaf (read: inferior) girl that took Ishida away" and bases her bullying on that. She knows that it's far easier for them to communicate on a sheet of paper, but refuses to because it doesn't "convey any feelings", which is utter bullshit. It places Nishimiya in a context where she can't respond to Ueno's reasoning easily (because she has to interpret and speak a 2nd language she can't even hear very well).  If Ueno wants to them to respect each other on "mutual hatred" there needs to actually be some sense of equality.

 

I think Ueno has very little empathy for what its like to be deaf and probably didn't think of how inconvenient it would be for Nishimiya.  She is definitely the kind of person who does things in the heat of the moment and doesn't think them through. Yes, I do think Ueno is in denial about the things she's done and is overall a rather terrible person, but I find it really interesting how terrible she is.  She is probably never going to be completely redeemed and I'd be okay with that.

 

I don't know, I guess I'm just glad to read about an unashamed bitch written from a pretty neutral viewpoint.  Usually those characters are antagonized or fetishized.  In Koe no Katachi, it sort of feels like Ueno does have a point but you're really not sure.  This feels like what a real asshole would say to you in real life trying to justify their actions.  They're still going to be jerks no matter what but in real life, there's a ton of variables you don't know about that person that would probably make you more sympathetic. I prefer to think of this manga in shades of grey and not black & white.

 

 

I wouldn't be surprised if Nishiyama's sister is secretly plotting to avenge that slap....ahahaha.

[Cake-kun]

Spoiler

NOOOO YUZURU DONT CRY i_i

[pokota]

Re: Chapter 29 (Grandma)

 

Oh, jeez.  Looks like things are going to go from bad to worse.  The grandmother seems like the glue that holds the family together.  

 

The attitude of the mother is only going to lead to pain for everyone.  I have a relative who got pregnant at age 20 and ended up resenting the child.  She used to tell them, "you ruined my life," and they ended up hating one another.  That's the situation this reminds me of.  The mother seems to do her best to destroy the confidence of both her daughters.  I'm sure things are hard for her but she really needs to try to understand and accept them instead.

 

Yuzuru seems to be in real trouble emotionally.  That girl needs some help.