432 replies to this topic

[Euodiachloris]

@ Euo
I thought you studied psychology or something. It should be obvious to you that rachel's reaction with Dan is the proof that she still thinks she killed him. If not, it doesn't make any sens.

No: it isn't a bit clear. He stepped on her "you should work for yourself" button. If you've had it drilled into you you're useless, that nothing you can do will work out unless you have others to lean on, that you're pathetic, a waste of space, stupid, dirty, pointless, evil... can't think for yourself without me... etc, etc...

Somebody telling you you're stupid for not seeing that you can do things for yourself? Is going to spark rage that's been put into you (as that would be the reaction of the abuser to your trying to stand up for yourself in the past)... particularly if you've had the self-esteem knocked out of you e.g. during years of abuse.

If that's her background, it makes a tonne of sense why she saw red... <shrugs> There are a number of possible reasons for that reaction. That's just one.

Also, transferring learned reactions of rage-hate-shame from what happened to you on to others who try to act the way you did, once? Even if you've primed them to, e.g. stand up for you? Very common. I think you could probably agree with me on that: any strong, learned, negative behaviour pattern can do this, for a number of conditioned triggers.

And, how does she treat memories of Baam, eh? <shrugs>

Edited by Euodiachloris, 11 February 2013 - 09:39 PM.

[Veice]

Nope: http://vatoto.com/forums/topic/9544-sius-qa-translations-discussions/ I don't like Rachel either, but SIU intends for her to be the female protagonist in this story, she is his favorite character after all. I'm very curious how that will happen though. Maybe she'll be all "Miss Nicey" to everyone later on, but everyone in return treats her like crap, because she's weak and ugly, especially those close to Baam. Baam himself could be the "villain" later on, but that is a theory for another discussion.

SIU said that althrough Lachel is the main female protagonist, she is not the main heroine. The definition of protagonist is the central character of a story, not nessesarily good or bad. So maybe we'll see the good heroine later on, let's hope she's not Xia xia, poor Baam needs a break from crazy chicks.

[Dimitraa]

Spoiler

hi guys i know this might be a little of topic, but maybe this star-nim is the creator of the tower, and is someone very important to her more than anything, explaining her betrayals, ( i know star-nim is a fictional story but the way she says this i got the idea he might be more than just a silly star)

Well..I haven't even given this much thought when I first read it.Imo this star-nim is just the stars that Lahel wants to go up and see.And maybe in a childish way gives the nim suffix.
I have the suspicion that even after TOG finishes we won't find out who created the tower.Maybe we will be given a couple of hints but I think that SIU has biiig plans and wants to write other stories from TUS.We won't even see Phantaninum again,and if anyone knows about the creator,the biggest probabillities is him.

I thought the seeding was done by Le-ro who's neutral, so I may have to check out that chapter again.*edit yeah I read the chapter again and don't describe if Le-ro or YHS did the seeding, but I'm going to say YHS. But don't forget during the position test Rachel had extra points during the test to get food and eat by herself.Also SIU could go with Rachel not knowing Baam is alive to add more drama, but I find it quite stupid for her not to know when she is working with F.U.G.

I concluded that she knew Baam was alive simply to the fact Xia Xia was with Baam and I think that was Apple who threatening Baam telling him not to move. Remember lighthouses can connect to other lighthouses and since Xia Xia, Apple and Rachel use lighthouses they were communicating. Apple is shown operating two lighthouses.

hmm..interesting theory.I took it to be XiaXia who manipulated the lighthouse.Perhaps it was also connected to Apple's of course since they worked on this plan together and it required some sychronicity to work out.
But we don't know what kind of relatioship Apple or Michael have with Lahel.Are they sharing all the information with her?Their loyality after all lies with FUG not with her.They aren't her friends but spies on a mission.So even if Apple did know,Lahel could be in the dark.We don't even know,if Lahel was in on the plan or if she was simply told by FUG that they will take care of it and get rid of Koon.
I still believe that she doesn't know that he's alive from her reactions-as Algis has said,but I guess we can't know for sure yet.

And about Rachel's potential because or her ''irregularity'', I think it's better to consider her as a normal girl. Headon said she was unfit to climb the Tower, she doesn't have the qualities, she shouldn't have been able to enter the Tower in the first place, it was an accident. It's not completely impossible that she will power up a little but I personally don't expect her to become a power house.

Headon lied blatantly to Baam about not knowing where Lahel is.What makes you think that he wouldn't also lie to Lahel to manipulate her to fullfill his own goal?Nothing easier than crushing a little girl with a big wish.Make her so desperate that she will tightly cling to the last shine of hope and do whatever you want.Like push a boy to his death.

Thank god that SIU himself confirmed that Lahel is an irregular otherwise we would still be debating that.

[Grace Mirchea Luslec]

I think it's pretty clear that Rachel doesn't know Baam survived. She became crazy and obsessed with his death after she pushed him in the ''water tank''. When Dan accused her to have killed Baam, she became hysteric and stabbed him who knows how many times before getting back to normal.
It's very probable that if she learns that Baam survived, she returns to her normal self and regret sincerely all the wrongs she did. But I think SIU will make it in a way that even if she wants to repent, she won't be able, she will have no choice but to betray again and continue into the madness.

Concerning the best seed position, I also think that it's YHS's doing. Rachel did nothing more than accompanying Akryung and watch him slaughter everyone on the 2cd floor's first test. Even Lero Ro didn't want to explain how the best seed were chosen.

And about Rachel's potential because or her ''irregularity'', I think it's better to consider her as a normal girl. Headon said she was unfit to climb the Tower, she doesn't have the qualities, she shouldn't have been able to enter the Tower in the first place, it was an accident. It's not completely impossible that she will power up a little but I personally don't expect her to become a power house.

You do know Headon is a pathological liar, why wouldn't he chose not to lie to Rachel? Headon doesn't chose irregulars so how would he know the requirements of a irregular to climb the tower? Remember he even sabotage Baam's test of making a ball that was hard to bust with the Black March. Trusting Headon's words is like trusting the Joker from Batman.

[Dimitraa]

SIU said that althrough Lachel is the main female protagonist, she is not the main heroine. The definition of protagonist is the central character of a story, not nessesarily good or bad. So maybe we'll see the good heroine later on, let's hope she's not Xia xia, poor Baam needs a break from crazy chicks.

I am sorry but can you tell me the difference?I thought that a hero could be dark as well.Unless we take it with the classical sense,but even then a hero could commit crimes and hybris.Lahel could be a heroine and her betrayal to Baam her hybris.
Perhaps heroine here is someone who has romance with Baam?

[Euodiachloris]

I am sorry but can you tell me the difference?I thought that a hero could be dark as well.Unless we take it with the classical sense,but even then a hero could commit crimes and hybris.Lahel could be a heroine and her betrayal to Baam her hybris.
Perhaps heroine here is someone who has romance with Baam?

You can even get Villain Protagonists: Light Yagami is one. <shrugs> There's a whole range of possible protagonists you can be: here. (Urgh... that page... needs more links to such things as Decoy Protagonist and others, not to mention more solid links to other PoV tropes. For such an Omnipresent Trope, that page is pathetically sparse: who needs a laconic section when the Main does the job? )

Hmmm... I think I'm going to work on that page for a bit for a few days...

Edited by Euodiachloris, 11 February 2013 - 09:52 PM.

[synbios]

Rachel is someone who is behind every plot turn, love or hate her she is a integral part of what makes TOG so damn good. Maybe now that she has part ways with Koon we can finally see her intentions and ability really is.

[Grace Mirchea Luslec]

You can even get Villain Protagonists: Light Yagami is one. <shrugs> There's a whole range of possible protagonists you can be: here. Urgh... that page... needs more links to such things as Decoy Protagonist and others, not to mention more solid links to other PoV tropes.

Hmmm... I think I'm going to work on that page for a bit for a few days...

Aren't they called anti-heroes/anti-heroines. Something like Roxas/Riku from Kingdom Heart.

[Dimitraa]

You can even get Villain Protagonists: Light Yagami is one. <shrugs> There's a whole range of possible protagonists you can be: here. Urgh... that page... needs more links to such things as Decoy Protagonist and others, not to mention more solid links to other PoV tropes. For such an Omnipresent Trope, that page is pathetically sparse.

Hmmm... I think I'm going to work on that page for a bit for a few days...

Hmm..I see.So a protagonist is always the principal character and the story is always about them.
But the Hero is someone superior in skills or ethics.

It is important to remember that while the hero is usually also The Protagonist, they are not necessarily one and the same. Whereas the hero is defined by the character traits described above, The Protagonist is defined by their central role in the story. In Star Wars, for instance, Luke Skywalker is an almost ridiculously archetypical example of The Hero and is more or less the Main Character of the original trilogy, but the prequel trilogy establishes the more antiheroic Anakin Skywalker as The Protagonist of the film series as a whole, even though he is a villain for more than half of the saga.

So Lahel can be Darth Vader of TOG...<3 hehehe amazing!!

[Euodiachloris]

Aren't they called anti-heroes/anti-heroines. Something like Roxas/Riku from Kingdom Heart.

You're looking for the Sliding Scale of Anti-Heroes... Villains, or even Antagonist (for now) Vileness my dearest girl. The line between anti-hero and anti-villain... can get rather blurry.

Let alone their actions. Sometimes, what whoever is can only be found out rather late in the story. Take good old Professor Snape, for example. And, how you judge him can be very reader-dependant.

Your Mileage May Vary is a trope, after all, too.

Edited by Euodiachloris, 11 February 2013 - 10:00 PM.

[Grace Mirchea Luslec]

I think people have to take account that Rachel had a life before she enter the tower. Outside the tower(TUS) exis/exies(plural) who are common outside the tower are 10x stronger like with Phantaminum being ranked top 5 exis. Maybe or maybe not that plays a role on why she's desparetly trying to climb the tower. Also there was a war that probably could of traumatize her. Each character like Koon, Anak or Love have their story, but I don't think it compares to exis that are god-like in (TUS).

Off topic I wanted to throw this out there whoever read the (TUS) info.
Exes are known for the title of King. Conquering King, King of Artificial.
Zahard (King of the Tower) could he possibly be an exis and that's why Phantaminum visit him?

Edited by Michelle_Light, 11 February 2013 - 10:14 PM.

[Algis]

Headon lied blatantly to Baam about not knowing where Lahel is.What makes you think that he wouldn't also lie to Lahel to manipulate her to fullfill his own goal?Nothing easier than crushing a little girl with a big wish.Make her so desperate that she will tightly cling to the last shine of hope and do whatever you want.Like push a boy to his death.

Thank god that SIU himself confirmed that Lahel is an irregular otherwise we would still be debating that.

You do know Headon is a pathological liar, why wouldn't he chose not to lie to Rachel? Headon doesn't chose irregulars so how would he know the requirements of a irregular to climb the tower? Remember he even sabotage Baam's test of making a ball that was hard to bust with the Black March. Trusting Headon's words is like trusting the Joker from Batman.

Reread chapter 76, you will see that Headon was waiting a particular guest, he was waiting the person chosen by the Tower, and he knew for sure that Rachel wasn't the good person. For some reason Headon knew Baam's characteristics and could compare them to Rachel's characteristics and tell that she wasn't the good person. He even knew Rachel's psychology as if he could read into her mind and could tell ''how loathsome, dirty and dreadful of a person'' she was. We don't know how he is able to do that but we just have to admit that Headon has this kind of power.

So, Headon was sure the Tower choose someone else than Rachel and was surprised to face her. He had no reason to lie, he told her straight that she wasn't chosen by the Tower and she didn't have the qualities to climb the Tower. He didn't want to test her, his mission is to test the people chosen by the Tower. If she didn't beg him, he would have asked her to leave and it would have been the end of her story.

After that, chapter 2 (yes 2), Yuri makes her apparition and we can see that Headon is surprised, he says ''oh ho, this person is … '', and we deduce that he is not (completely) omniscient and prescient. Even if he seems to be a God, actually he can't anticipate that much and has to analyze the things as they happen and elaborate plans according to the situation. It seems pretty clear that he didn't expect Rachel to come into the Tower and he didn't think she could be of any use to him, but in the end he thought he could use her in relation with Baam.

Edited by Algis, 11 February 2013 - 10:40 PM.

[Veice]

I think people have to take account that Rachel had a life before she enter the tower. Outside the tower(TUS) exis/exies(plural) who are common outside the tower are 10x stronger like with Phantaminum being ranked top 5 exis. Maybe or maybe not that plays a role on why she's desparetly trying to climb the tower. Also there was a war that probably could of traumatize her. Each character like Koon, Anak or Love have their story, but I don't think it compares to exis that are god-like in (TUS).

Off topic I wanted to throw this out there whoever read the (TUS) info.
Exes are known for the title of King. Conquering King, King of Artificial.
Zahard (King of the Tower) could he possibly be an exis and that's why Phantaminum visit him?

Somewhere, althrough I forgot where (maybe on Q&A), they mentioned that Zahard is not an Exis, just self proclaimed King of the Tower. Also, I think Baam is both the hero and male protagonist of the story but Rachel is only the main female protagonist.

[Euodiachloris]

Reread chapter 76, you will see that Headon was waiting a particular guest, he was waiting the person chosen by the Tower, and he knew for sure that Rachel wasn't the good person. For some reason Headon knew Baam's characteristics and could compare them to Rachel's characteristics and tell that she wasn't the good person. He even knew Rachel's psychology as if he could read into her mind and could tell ''how loathsome, dirty and dreadful of a person'' she was. We don't know how he is able to do that but we just have to admit that Headon has this kind of power.

So, Headon was sure the Tower choose someone else than Rachel and was surprised to face her. He had no reason to lie, he told her straight that she wasn't chosen by the Tower and she didn't have the qualities to climb the Tower. He didn't want to test her, his mission is to test the people chosen by the Tower. If she didn't beg him, he would have asked her to leave and it would have been the end of her story.

After that, chapter 2 (yes 2), Yuri makes her apparition and we can see that Headon is surprised, he says ''oh ho, this person is … '', and we deduce that is not (completely) omniscient and prescient. Even if he seems to be a God, actually he can't anticipate that much and has to analyze the things as they happen and elaborate plans according to the situation. It seems pretty clear that he didn't expect Rachel to come into the Tower and he didn't think she could be of any use to him, but in the end he thought he could use her in relation with Baam.

And, this is where I think things went a bit wonky: Headon (and the Tower) got a Buy One, Get One Free offer, when they were expecting a single product purchase. Baam isn't the answer to their dreams... nor is Rachel. However, both together? Could well be the dual catalyst that is needed.

For whatever they are needed for, that is... if I can work out what that is.

And, I'm not convinced they are being wisely used. Either of them. I think Headon messed up. Possibly.

Edited by Euodiachloris, 11 February 2013 - 10:39 PM.

[Dimitraa]

I think people have to take account that Rachel had a life before she enter the tower. Outside the tower(TUS) exis/exies(plural) who are common outside the tower are 10x stronger like with Phantaminum being ranked top 5 exis. Maybe or maybe not that plays a role on why she's desparetly trying to climb the tower. Also there was a war that probably could of traumatize her. Each character like Koon, Anak or Love have their story, but I don't think it compares to exis that are god-like in (TUS).

Off topic I wanted to throw this out there whoever read the (TUS) info.
Exes are known for the title of King. Conquering King, King of Artificial.
Zahard (King of the Tower) could he possibly be an exis and that's why Phantaminum visit him?

No,the only exis in TOG is Phantaninum and we won't even get to see him.Siu said that.So Zahard is a simple human immortal and irregular.But no God.

Reread chapter 76, you will see that Headon was waiting a particular guest, he was waiting the person chosen by the Tower, and he knew for sure that Rachel wasn't the good person. For some reason Headon knew Baam's characteristics and could compare them to Rachel's characteristics and tell that she wasn't the good person. He even knew Rachel's psychology as if he could read into her mind and could tell ''how loathsome, dirty and dreadful of a person'' she was. We don't know how he is able to do that but we just have to admit that Headon has this kind of power.

So, Headon was sure the Tower choose someone else than Rachel and was surprised to face her. He had no reason to lie, he told her straight that she wasn't chosen by the Tower and she didn't have the qualities to climb the Tower. He didn't want to test her, his mission is to test the people chosen by the Tower. If she didn't beg him, he would have asked her to leave and it would have been the end of her story.

After that, chapter 2 (yes 2), Yuri makes her apparition and we can see that Headon is surprised, he says ''oh ho, this person is … '', and we deduce that he is not (completely) omniscient and prescient. Even if he seems to be a God, actually he can't anticipate that much and has to analyze the things as they happen and elaborate plans according to the situation. It seems pretty clear that he didn't expect Rachel to come into the Tower and he didn't think she could be of any use to him, but in the end he thought he could use her in relation with Baam.

Hmm..where to start.So..you think that Headon was waiting a specific guest and it only took some begging to try someone else?Only with some begging anyone can try to climb the Tower?Even if he thought she would fail,I find it hard to believe that she would even be given the chance to try...then that specific guest..how do we know it wasn't two guests?Why would it be only one?
Why do you have so much trust in the honesty of Headon.He lied to baam to push him to climb and join FUG.He lied to Lahel to crush her,and make her betray Baam and also join Fug.With some little lies,and voila!Two irregulars in FUG.

As for chapter two..don't you find it a little suspicious and strange that Yuri somehow learned and came down?Noone else seems to know not even RED or Zahard or Urek and Wingtree.But Yuri??How?Not even her guide,the high ranker guide of the royal family didn't even know.
And then after some time ,we are conveniently introduced to a strange character.Someone who could have known,since she has one of the strongest lighthouses in the world.Someone who easily seems to manipulate Yuri to achieve a goal,and someone who seems to knowww a lot and have some shady connection with FUG.Repellista.
That's how conveniently Yuri learned about the irregular and came down.And Headon ofcourse acts suprised.But does he stop them from interfering?This is a floor test afterall rankers shouldn't interfere!...if they are not supposed to.If Headon hadn't planned for Yuri's interference and wasn't in his plans you can bet he wouldn't let her even get close to Baam.

[Masterpace]

I don't really hate Rachel...I don't like her not because she killed someone or whatever. She killed Baam innocent person that only cares about his friends....and the most annoying thing is that she taught him that...I guess I just don't like hypocrits.


Oh and at least others that kill people to climb the tower don't try to use killed person's friends to help them climb it.

Edited by Masterpace, 11 February 2013 - 11:24 PM.

[Heretical_Tarp]

I don't feel conflicted about hating Rachel, because SIU wants us to.
Just ride the emotional roller-coaster he is building, no need to second-guess the plans.

[mnimonymous]

Reread chapter 76, you will see that Headon was waiting a particular guest, he was waiting the person chosen by the Tower, and he knew for sure that Rachel wasn't the good person. For some reason Headon knew Baam's characteristics and could compare them to Rachel's characteristics and tell that she wasn't the good person. He even knew Rachel's psychology as if he could read into her mind and could tell ''how loathsome, dirty and dreadful of a person'' she was. We don't know how he is able to do that but we just have to admit that Headon has this kind of power.

So, Headon was sure the Tower choose someone else than Rachel and was surprised to face her. He had no reason to lie, he told her straight that she wasn't chosen by the Tower and she didn't have the qualities to climb the Tower. He didn't want to test her, his mission is to test the people chosen by the Tower. If she didn't beg him, he would have asked her to leave and it would have been the end of her story.

After that, chapter 2 (yes 2), Yuri makes her apparition and we can see that Headon is surprised, he says ''oh ho, this person is … '', and we deduce that is not (completely) omniscient and prescient. Even if he seems to be a God, actually he can't anticipate that much and has to analyze the things as they happen and elaborate plans according to the situation. It seems pretty clear that he didn't expect Rachel to come into the Tower and he didn't think she could be of any use to him, but in the end he thought he could use her in relation with Baam.

Um, it is possible that Headon fully expected Yuri's appearance and I'll explain why. The test he prepared for Baam was one he could clear only if he used an ignition weapon or something equally strong to pop that ball of his. That is the first suspicious thing about it. He also seemed to know the contents of Yuri's weapon inventory,or at least that she had the Black March, but even more importantly he was sure that Baam would be able to ignite it. Yuri hadn't succeeded to do such a thing from when she first got it but Baam did it on first try. There's no reason why anyone would think that even if Baam was an irregular. And for sure BM didn't help Baam out because of his irregular status. Also a good thing to keep in mind is that the 13 Month series are special from the rest of ignition weapons and there was something in an afterword from SIU that they will play some kind of role in the future. But I digress. For those 2 reasons I believe Headon knew full well of Yuri's imminent arrival and had some sort of reason he wanted Baam to get the Black March, either for his protection or for an unspecified yet motive.

Another thing I would like to add, since this is a thread about Rachel, is that Headon's words to her about her nature as a person could very well be Rachel's own perception of herself. She did mention after all her desire to be reborn to Baam before entering the tower. He never said anything to Baam about morality and stuff, even though he called him a hero in front of Rachel, he only lied to him about his friend moving to the next floor to get him to take the test. Now tha's fishy. He might had said those things to her to crush her psyche and get her to co-operate in his scheme with FUG, since she was the weak one of the duo and Baam's weakness at the same time. Well, at least we know a part of it is true, since Baam also said she had the habit of lying.
I'm just looking at possibilities here, I don't say anything is definite. Another take at it could be that Rachel used Baam to enter the tower and Headon knew it and that's why he said those things to her. Either one is equally possible at this point and with the information at hand.

[Algis]

And Headon ofcourse acts suprised.

No, Headon doesn't act surprised, he didn't say out loud ''oh ho, this person is … '', he said it for himself, he thought it.

You read too much between the lines ^^ You absolutely want things to be as you think/want and refuse to just see them as they are. Headon didn't expect Yuri to appear, he was surprised, this is a fact. Don't blame me, SIU made it this way ^^

And then after some time ,we are conveniently introduced to a strange character.Someone who could have known,since she has one of the strongest lighthouses in the world.Someone who easily seems to manipulate Yuri to achieve a goal,and someone who seems to knowww a lot and have some shady connection with FUG.Repellista.

The link between Repellista and FUG is not a fact at all. And if she was with FUG, why would she send a zahardian Princess who has nothing to do with FUG ? The fact that Repellista sent Yuri should be interpreted as a hint that she is not affiliated with FUG. Don't you think ?

Only with some begging anyone can try to climb the Tower?Even if he thought she would fail,I find it hard to believe that she would even be given the chance to try...

lol. Once again you want things to be as you think and don't see them as they are. Headon didn't want to test Rachel and she could have refused at any time. She had to insist a first time to push him to show her the test, to dissuade her from insisting. And she had to beg him a second time to permit her to climb, after making a deal with him. She wasn't forced/obligated to make the deal. Headon only used Rachel because she insisted and that is a fact.

then that specific guest..how do we know it wasn't two guests?Why would it be only one?

Read chapter 76, it's all there. Headon was waiting the arrival of Baam the Irregular, just 1 person. Just read the chapter, without any prejudice.

@mnimonymous
I read what you wrote but I still didn't change my mind
I think Headon changes his plans as things happen. He didn't expect neither Rachel nor Yuri to appear and he did his plans according to the situation.

EDIT : I mean he did plan what you say, but he didn't plan it before Yuri appeared.

Edited by Algis, 11 February 2013 - 11:57 PM.

[mnimonymous]

[/color]
No, Headon doesn't act surprised, he didn't say out loud ''oh ho, this person is … '', he said it for himself, he thought it.

You read too much between the lines ^^ You absolutely want things to be as you think/want and refuse to just see them as they are. Headon didn't expect Yuri to appear, he was surprised, this is a fact. Don't blame me, SIU made it this way ^^



The link between Repellista and FUG is not a fact at all. And if she was with FUG, why would she send a zahardian Princess who has nothing to do with FUG ? The fact that Repellista sent Yuri should be interpreted as a hint that she is not affiliated with FUG. Don't you think ?



lol. Once again you want things to be as you think and don't see them as they are. Headon didn't want to test Rachel and she could have refused at any time. She had to insist a first time to push him to show her the test, to dissuade her from insisting. And she had to beg him a second time to permit her to climb, after making a deal with him. She wasn't forced/obligated to make the deal. Headon only used Rachel because she insisted and that is a fact.


Read chapter 76, it's all there. Headon was waiting the arrival of Baam the Irregular, just 1 person. Just read the chapter, without any prejudice.

@mnimonymous
I read what you wrote but I still didn't change my mind
[color=#000000]I think Headon changes his plans as things happen. He didn't expect neither Rachel nor Yuri to appear and he did his plans according to the situation.

[color=#000000]EDIT : I meanhe did plan what you say, but he didn't plan it before Yuri appeared.

Yes, I reread the chapter too and saw that the speech bubble indeed shows he was talking to himself when Yuri arrived. Good of you to point that out.