Kingdom

gyou's lord does resemble angela merkel a bit. 

there's a good reason why in Lieber Code:

'War is not carried on by arms alone. It is lawful to starve the hostile belligerent, armed or unarmed, so that it leads to the speedier subjugation of the enemy. … When a commander of a besieged place expels the non-combatants, in order to lessen the number of those who consume his stock of provisions, it is lawful, though an extreme measures, to drive them back, so as to hasten on the surrender.'
 

they had to add that because the strategy can be extremely effective provided the right condition, and were repeatedly used throughout the history (at the cost of the civilians)

generally speaking, how long a defender in a besieged location can last (factoring out things like damage from the siege itself), depends heavily on how many ppl are inside the location... how much stores of food they have... whether they have access to supply (from sea for instance)... etc...

a city with small garrison force (relative to the food supply) with sea access (port) can potentially last for a VERY long time (blockading sea port is a lot harder than it sound because a supply ship can  break through blockade temporarily and bring in supply with the help of a fleet)

while a large garrison in a small city on land is going to last a lot shorter if they can't break through the siege.. and generally as starvation kicks in, another thing kills the defender from inside... ie: disease, because famine and disease... goes hand in hand ESPECIALLY in crowded environment.

the worst possible scenario for the besieged defender is to have even more ppl within that consumes resources, but cannot help defend the location.. hence why the best course of action for them is to expel the civilians out... reducing the consumption of resources (and the potential for disease to sets in as well) and extending the duration they can last in that siege.

this is why in some siege cases, you find cities that simply barred their door against refugees... it's not usually because they r just heartless bastard (one had to be to an extent to participate war in the first place) but also because of the above...

Now... what do you do when you ALREADY take refugees in

and you CAN'T EXPEL THEM OUT (because there's a fate worse than death waiting for them out the gate and no refugees in the right mind would even think of stepping out)?

Spoiler

Uh, no. The half a day I mentioned concerned precisely one of these smaller cities. We hear this from Ten herself (chapter 514). And that’s with the whole army besieging them. Now with them all split up like that it would potentially only taken even longer to conquer and then pillage each one.
 
I did not say that they got no net surplus of food from the plundering, just that you seem to be overestimating how much of it they got. They don’t have a huge advantage over the defenders in this regard.
 
Dude, no. Capitals, maybe, but remember that the entirety of China only had like 20 million people in it back then. There’s no way there would be so many people in each of these little cities.

Anyway, this whole stratagem strikes me as super stupid. Food is not that important to humans. Even if they had ZERO proper supplies left by the time the city got encircled (and this seems not to be the case), their people should be able to last for at least two weeks before being too weak to mount a proper defense (even without figuring in eating pets, rats and corpses). Yet the Qin army has nowhere near that much time to spare, has it?

So in the end, what did this accomplish? Honestly, I hope the theories about the Qin having sent soldiers hidden among the refugees turn out to be true because as it stands this seems fairly pointless.

Oh and as a side note, how were the Qin surprised by the city’s defenses? Did they never, in all their months of planning, send spies to check it out?

Starving the defender is the easiest and the most used siege strategy during the middle ages (900 - 1400s)

Hannibal did it during the 2nd Punic War, almost broke the Romans if Scipio didnt counter his stratagem

Its costly though

That Kanki - Ousen duo though.

Mougu would be proud.

Man, you're fucking stupid.

short and on point, i like you

NEWEST CHAPTER IS HYPEEEEEEEEEEE!!!!!!!!!!!!!! 

Spoiler

Uh, no. The half a day I mentioned concerned precisely one of these smaller cities. We hear this from Ten herself (chapter 514). And that’s with the whole army besieging them. Now with them all split up like that it would potentially only taken even longer to conquer and then pillage each one.
 
I did not say that they got no net surplus of food from the plundering, just that you seem to be overestimating how much of it they got. They don’t have a huge advantage over the defenders in this regard.
 
Dude, no. Capitals, maybe, but remember that the entirety of China only had like 20 million people in it back then. There’s no way there would be so many people in each of these little cities.

Anyway, this whole stratagem strikes me as super stupid. Food is not that important to humans. Even if they had ZERO proper supplies left by the time the city got encircled (and this seems not to be the case), their people should be able to last for at least two weeks before being too weak to mount a proper defense (even without figuring in eating pets, rats and corpses). Yet the Qin army has nowhere near that much time to spare, has it?

So in the end, what did this accomplish? Honestly, I hope the theories about the Qin having sent soldiers hidden among the refugees turn out to be true because as it stands this seems fairly pointless.

Oh and as a side note, how were the Qin surprised by the city’s defenses? Did they never, in all their months of planning, send spies to check it out?

Spoiler

Uh, no. The half a day I mentioned concerned precisely one of these smaller cities. We hear this from Ten herself (chapter 514). And that’s with the whole army besieging them. Now with them all split up like that it would potentially only taken even longer to conquer and then pillage each one.
 
I did not say that they got no net surplus of food from the plundering, just that you seem to be overestimating how much of it they got. They don’t have a huge advantage over the defenders in this regard.
 
Dude, no. Capitals, maybe, but remember that the entirety of China only had like 20 million people in it back then. There’s no way there would be so many people in each of these little cities.

Anyway, this whole stratagem strikes me as super stupid. Food is not that important to humans. Even if they had ZERO proper supplies left by the time the city got encircled (and this seems not to be the case), their people should be able to last for at least two weeks before being too weak to mount a proper defense (even without figuring in eating pets, rats and corpses). Yet the Qin army has nowhere near that much time to spare, has it?

So in the end, what did this accomplish? Honestly, I hope the theories about the Qin having sent soldiers hidden among the refugees turn out to be true because as it stands this seems fairly pointless.

Oh and as a side note, how were the Qin surprised by the city’s defenses? Did they never, in all their months of planning, send spies to check it out?

What Ousen did was pretty much just laying siege in a medival way.

Try fighting without food. Sure you can last several weeks without, but not in fighting shape.

In addition the massive influx of people will diminish morale, most of them had to walk for days without food or water after all.

Furthermore the city should be well above capacity now. Diseases will spread like mad very soon.

Ousen on the other side could raid additional supplies from the nine cities.

I also have this odd suspicion that for some reason they might just leave Gyou and go in attacking the inner zone of Zhou.  Technically Gyou will eat itself to nothing, and then starve.  If Qin leaves, Gyou could open their gates, but in reality Gyou would be so fucked at that point that it's not worth it to even waste time attacking Gyou, when they could just go all in.

Gyou could technically become a stronghold again, but who knows.  I'm not sure if the Qin are trying to use Gyou as a stronghold to put pressure on Zhou, or if they are going all in.  

I haven't read the newest chapters, but will update after reading them on SenseScans.

Oh and as a side note, how were the Qin surprised by the city’s defenses? Did they never, in all their months of planning, send spies to check it out?

Even if they had sent spies, I'd imagine the spies wouldn't have the same training as their strategists, who were the only ones able to recognize the flaw in the city's defenses.

I suppose that is another option but one that seems unlikely. After all, they were just fed and for them to really hunger again it would take a few days at least, no? Also, if the trained soldiers started slaying rebels left and right I’m not sure how many of them would be brave enough to keep it up.

But I guess we’ll soon see either way.

Spoiler

Uh, no. The half a day I mentioned concerned precisely one of these smaller cities. We hear this from Ten herself (chapter 514). And that’s with the whole army besieging them. Now with them all split up like that it would potentially only taken even longer to conquer and then pillage each one.
 
I did not say that they got no net surplus of food from the plundering, just that you seem to be overestimating how much of it they got. They don’t have a huge advantage over the defenders in this regard.
 
Dude, no. Capitals, maybe, but remember that the entirety of China only had like 20 million people in it back then. There’s no way there would be so many people in each of these little cities.

Anyway, this whole stratagem strikes me as super stupid. Food is not that important to humans. Even if they had ZERO proper supplies left by the time the city got encircled (and this seems not to be the case), their people should be able to last for at least two weeks before being too weak to mount a proper defense (even without figuring in eating pets, rats and corpses). Yet the Qin army has nowhere near that much time to spare, has it?

So in the end, what did this accomplish? Honestly, I hope the theories about the Qin having sent soldiers hidden among the refugees turn out to be true because as it stands this seems fairly pointless.

Oh and as a side note, how were the Qin surprised by the city’s defenses? Did they never, in all their months of planning, send spies to check it out?

A ... a few hours? You don’t actually think that the events of chapter 516 took place in a single day, do you? Taking just a single city took them half a day, they said.

Also, according to Ten the food supplies they captured barely even make up for the time spent capturing each city so I don’t think they really got much of a net benefit in that regard from these conquests.

Hope the next chapter comes out soon...

So overall we have 10 or so cities worth of citizens that rushed to Gyou starving, who already ate 6 granaries of food within a few hours, coupled with an  enemy army of 150k with their own food stocks, plus 10 cities worth of food.

Honestly, taking the city is pointless if they can't re-establish the supply line back to Qin so that they can hold the city, and to do that they first need to decisively beat the Zhao armies in the field to a point that Zhao can't carry out a major campaign for the next few years.

There are a bunch of tactics that Ousen devised to not only keep their current food supplies stocked heavily, but to taken down Zhou fast, as well as allow the supply line to be re-established if need be (which I doubt will happen).

Spoiler

Don't take this poorly, but there is no way that your numbers are at all close to realistic.  Even if we assume that each of the ten "small" cities have large enough populations to hide 10k troops in, it would be immediately obvious to a skilled commander that there was something ploy about to go down if suddenly literally half of the enemy army is missing.  50k as rear guard and 50k at the walls?  Where did the other 100,000 go?  Better check the massive refugee influx we just got.  Now, if he sent like... 500 or 1000 per city?  It's easy to see the difference between 150,000 and 50,000, but it isn't as easy to see the difference between 150,000 and 140,000.  Harder still to see the difference between 150k and 145k.  And if all it takes to open a single gate is a few dozen men...  once they get in, the battle becomes a lot worse for the defenders.  So, you're probably on the right track, but I doubt the numbers will be that high.

Honestly, taking the city is pointless if they can't re-establish the supply line back to Qin so that they can hold the city, and to do that they first need to decisively beat the Zhao armies in the field to a point that Zhao can't carry out a major campaign for the next few years.

Ousen ftw....  What a chapter.

Newest chapter was interesting, love seeing the reactions in Kanyou.

 

One thing I forgot to mention below is that

Spoiler

 The citizens will be dying of starvation as they travel towards Gyou, or as mentioned in the most recent chapter "East."  It does seem that my idea wasn't correct about them adding soldiers in (Also some would have have to have some food or else the soldiers might die of starvation as well.  Having food with them might throw a red flag as well).

 

I also forgot to mention that the starving soldiers will cause Chaos when they arrive at Gyou, and this might be when soldiers get added to the mix.  That way they have eaten and it doesn't throw off any flags.  Plus, adding a large group wont seem like an issue when so many are coming that way.

 

Since Kyoukai mentioned they are "Locust" to me that agrees with what I said about the "Chaos" that will happen, since Locust reminds me of the plague, or some sort of tragedy. 

 

It seems they are going to arrive at Gyou around the time Riboku arrives there as well....

 

I wonder what will happen next, exciting events underway.

 

Spoiler

Yes, I mentioned that Ousen will attack a bunch of cities forcing the citizens to Gyou.  I believe that he wants to hide soldiers into the civilian groups to gain knowledge about the city, locations of food, weapons, and the gate controls.  He also will allow soldiers to eat well, and rest up inside Gyou.  This will allow the spies to able to back-stab Gyou when the time is right, and allowing the gates to be opened fast/easy to allow quick conquest of Gyou by Qin.

 

Remember, a city is only as strong as it's gates/walls, and if they are overtaken then it's pretty much over, unless you can stop the "leak."

 

---------------------------------------------

 

I don't really agree that it will affect food supplies, but it could be possible.  Since Riboku knows that Qin is going to Gyou I would assume Gyou is most likely stockpiled with food for the great battle that could last any number of days.  There might even be a steady food supply to the city going on right now, up until Qin attacks,.  I believe that any city would have to increase food supplies when a neighboring city is conquered, so Gyou is probably doing that as well in preparation for the new civilians coming in from the surrounding cities.

 

I also believe that Ousen wouldn't want to "starve" out Gyou, because that food is precious to them.  Ousen NEEDS to gain food from every city he can, including Gyou, because their food supplies are shot due to Restubi; however he also can't waste any time in attacking Gyou either, so that has to be done at the same time as conquering the smaller cities.  By infiltrating Gyou with soldiers from every city, he not only is feeding less soldiers in the main army, but allowing the soldiers sent in to Gyou to feast, and be able to rest up for the upcoming takedown.

 

So if we think about there being 200,000 soldiers in total.

 

-50,000 due to Yotanwa's group fighting in the mountains, leaves us 150,000.

 

If lets say there are 10 cities in the around surrounding Gyou, and Ousen sends out 10,000 soldiers per city.  

 

That means by the time Ousen actually attacks Gyou, he will have 50,000 soldiers, a ton of food, and 100,000 soldiers inside Gyou.

 

Granted, I am going to assume there is going to be much much less inside Gyou, but even if there is half of that at 50,000 that still is 25% food saved, and 25% of the soldiers getting rest and feasting up.

 

It's possible that the civilians could try to plee with the soldiers, but the soldiers ultimately are going to defend their base, and most likely will tell the civilians they were tricked by Ousen, which could lead to any number of emotions.  In the end; however it is possible that Ousen will be sending out all of the combined citizens in Gyou, to Kantan and THERE will be the "starving" out.  Now that Ousen has Gyou will all of it's grand food supplies, I feel they are going to make Gyou their base for awhile.  Heal up, regroup with Yotanwa, etc, but at the same time, they are on the clock to take out Kantan before Riboku's arrival... Or maybe they just needed Gyou? (since Gyou is not allowed to be taken, Riboku most likely is going to go all in with weapons and food supplies to ensure victory, so Ousen is taking that to his advatange once it's conquered).

 

I don't think the hiding soldiers plan is going to happen in Kantan if Ousen does spare Gyou's citizens, since most likely someone will figure out how a ton of Qin soldiers got inside Gyou, but maybe it will work with a smaller team?

 

 

I didn't read the newest chapter, but excited to see what happens soon.

There seems to be many different periods within China's history.  I'm curious why the Author decided on the Warring states period for Kingdom, and I wonder if they will do other periods as well?

 

I've seen a lot of mention of the "Three Kingdoms" in other series, so I'm curious if the "Three Kingdoms" is a must read as well?  

 

I really would love to read more about the history of China, so not sure if there are other great novels people would recommend?  I'm also curious how those who have read the actual "Warring States Period" compare it to "Kingdom?"  How far off the path is Kingdom from the real story, and was there a lot of elements added to make "Kingdom" much better than what we read get from History?

The answer is simple. It is one of the few time period where China is not a unified country. The Three Kingdom period is the other major time period when China is not unified, so most of the "interesting" stories took place there.

If you look at historical Japanese Manga, a ton of them are set in the Sangoukou period, when Japan also was not unified under one ruler. Same deal.

"An army marches on its stomach." - Napoleon

 

"An army defends against a siege on its stomach, too." - Ousen

"Logistics win wars" - also Napoleon I guess?

anyhoo

There seems to be many different periods within China's history.  I'm curious why the Author decided on the Warring states period for Kingdom, and I wonder if they will do other periods as well?

 

I've seen a lot of mention of the "Three Kingdoms" in other series, so I'm curious if the "Three Kingdoms" is a must read as well?  

 

I really would love to read more about the history of China, so not sure if there are other great novels people would recommend?  I'm also curious how those who have read the actual "Warring States Period" compare it to "Kingdom?"  How far off the path is Kingdom from the real story, and was there a lot of elements added to make "Kingdom" much better than what we read get from History?

A very good question.

As to why the author chose this particular period for his work, well one can't really tell. Can we? I'm guessing this period interested him in a way. Before he started Kingdom, he made 2 one-shots. One on Riboku and the other on Shouheikun (god! I hope I'm spelling the name right!) So he had some interest in this particular period of Chinese history from the start. Also, though there are historical records for this period there is also a lot of room for interpolations and artistic license.

Look at Hara's depiction of many events and characters in the manga, very different from history. (To the point of being historically inaccurate I might add! Look at the many events added as 'filler' that did not take place in history!). There is another series very similar to Kingdom in art and narrative based on the Chu-Han contention. Someone posted a link a while back about it in the comments. Better check that out.

For me personally, the Three Kingdoms is one of my favourite periods in Chinese History. Thats probably owing to the fact that I have played 3 Dynasty Warrior games. But then again, that period is rich in itself. Kind of the Renaissance of Europe if you will (Though they both are very different periods!) I call it that because China would never ever experience such an age ever again. The fall of the Han dynasty reverberated throughout the world during those times. The effects were felt till Rome (as trade dried up and the silk route fell in disrepair). 

The fame of this period can be attributed to a single text "The Romance of The Three Kingdoms". It is one of the 4 Great Classical Novels of China. And the effect this book had on the culture, literature, drama etc can be compared to the effect  Shakespeare had on Western culture. There is a saying in Chinese opera: "3000 for Tang, 800 for Sung, and endless number for the Three Kingdoms." That's just how famous & influential that period really is.

So yes. I would recommend you to read the novel, and also if you want, read a manga by Yokayama Mitsuteru called Sangokushi. The manga is old. More than 30-40 years old I think. So the art style would be different. Like that of Osamu Tezuka. But's it still good, and largely adhere's to the novel faithfully.

After you have read the novel. I would "strongly" recommend a Hong Kong manhua called The Ravages of Time (TRoT). I can assure you, there is no greater work in manga/manhua/manhwa right now. Yes! not even Kingdom! (I'm guessing I'm going to get a lot of hate for this! lol!). Berserk and Vagabond would have come close, but Berserk is in a slump currently and Vagabond hasn't been updated for more than 2 years now I think. TRoT is simply breathtaking. The schemes, the stratagems, the political manoeuvrings, the mind games, the philosophical musings, the seriously badass curbstomp battles.  And the author reinterprets history in such a way that it is actually believable (more believable than the novel at any rate).

I would recommend reading Sangokushi or the novel before, as the author assumes that you're already familiar with the history of the period. It can be confusing in the beginning for those who are not familiar. This is a mature work. And by mature I don't mean there is any sleazy stuff in the work. It doesn't even have ecchi, but rather there is no handholding or explanation like in other mangas. This is a work of Literature. With a capital L! its that good!

As to other novels I would recommend Water margin, also one of the 4 classical texts of china.

As to comparing actual history written by Sima Qian to Kingdom, all I can say is that Kingdom is ~30% history and ~70% fiction. These figures can vary though. For e.g. Till the Alliance arc, I would say Kingdom was ~60% history and ~40% fiction. The author had filled holes in the historical knowledge/information with his own stories. But after that, it was mostly fiction. Hara sensei is now just following the historical timeline and the main events that cannot be changed loosely. 

I personally prefer history to fiction. Though I can enjoy a work that reinterprets historical facts, Like TRoT, Vagabond, Historie, Kingdom, Buddha etc. As this manga has been your introduction to Chinese period, you'll probably prefer this to actual historical records. But if you wish I can send you some pdf's on chinese history. Its really interesting in itself. 

There seems to be many different periods within China's history.  I'm curious why the Author decided on the Warring states period for Kingdom, and I wonder if they will do other periods as well?

I've seen a lot of mention of the "Three Kingdoms" in other series, so I'm curious if the "Three Kingdoms" is a must read as well?  

I really would love to read more about the history of China, so not sure if there are other great novels people would recommend?  I'm also curious how those who have read the actual "Warring States Period" compare it to "Kingdom?"  How far off the path is Kingdom from the real story, and was there a lot of elements added to make "Kingdom" much better than what we read get from History?

"An army marches on its stomach." - Napoleon

"An army defends against a siege on its stomach, too." - Ousen

Spoiler

It'll also create a backlash between Riboku and their current King. The opposite faction in Zhao's court can play this out and put the blame on Riboku and potentially strip him down from the command