Trace 2.0

Spoiler

Ra-Leader, on 18 Mar 2014 - 04:21, said: [spoiler]
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I completely disagree with your interpretation. I don't read Korean, so I know my argument is weak from the start, but the artwork and the translation sync up very well - he was struggling because he wanted to save himself too.

If it was as simple as what you said, then all of the internal dialogue contradicts itself - it is completely useless to show someone struggling over something they're committed to doing. If he wanted to save her life and sacrifice his own, then he knew where the ball was, all he needed to do was reach for the cup.

The drama of the scene is consistent with the current translation because he is struggling. All those internal thoughts, not to mention the way the scene dragged on in Ch.14; these things have purpose because they reveal his inability to reconcile himself to death. We see him in a situation where he's responsible for more than one life - and he is paralyzed. All of the cops around him were dying while he just stood there. He has been recklessly putting himself at risk up to this point, so it's even more poignant - when the control of a life-threatening situation is completely taken out of his hands, he ultimately values his life. He can't choose to save her life because he doesn't want to lose his own.

The tortured thoughts that continue into Chapter 16 also reinforce his pain at struggling through that situation. Why is he asking this question if your scenario is correct?:
[spoiler][/spoiler]

So, no. I don't take any of my analysis back. This is compelling because he has been shown the contrast between his ideal self - the man of justice - and his real self - a man who is afraid to die.That's just good writing.


[spoiler]
[/spoiler]

That was some next-level analysis, for sure. And yeah, it seems just about right on.

I think either of our interpretations are acceptable. They both play out equally well. And they're both quite similar. yay!

 

Actually, after seeing this post we commented it with the translator to see if it might be right or wrong, and I'm sorry to tell you it's not a matter of interpretation. We made a mistake which we will be fixing soon. Officer Suh in no moment says "I" which we happened to assume, it's completely ambiguous if he's talking about himself, Officer Yoon or both of them as it's not clarified at all. So while an interpretation is nice the original korean doesn't specify it. So I don't think we should assume that he wanted to save himself. That is for as far as a mistake correction needs to be done. 

As a personal opinion unrelated to Twisted Hel Scans. I think his inner dialogue is about how he regrets surviving, not because he wanted to survive there even if everyone else died, but because he thinks he should have died aswell. As for the rest of the police men they will all think bad of him because in all the other videos uploaded the victims are being "selfish" (or valuing their lives, however you prefer to call it).

Ra-leader:

Spoiler

 

I also think the perspective you came up with is more interesting from a character perspective, but it's just not what happened with him.  Twisted Hel Scans has confirmed as well.

 

But the destruction of his ideal self and need to face reality still is there, it just is in a different direction.  The contrast is his ideal self - the man who always finds a way to uphold justice - against his real self; a powerless human.

 

He first realized that he couldn't take them out, even though he really wanted to, for the sake of the others he couldn't act rashly like always. He thought, what does it take to survive?  I have to find a way to save even one more person.  Then he realizes there's no way they can both survive.  If he acts rationally, there is a path to survival for at least one person. he says "in the videos, also, there was always one survivor"  He struggles with the die because he can't decide if they will really let the person who finds the die go, or kill them like last time.  We are led to believe he has chosen to save himself, and only find out afterwards that he was talking about yeon joo. 

 

When he says "I'm also only human" he was talking about how powerless he was to do anything about his situation.  He also could have had something inside himself that made him hesitate to take the ball as he decided to, but nothing about his internal monologue indicates that.  He does hate his real vs. ideal self, but that hatred is not because he was selfish, but that he curses his powerlessness.  He hates that he couldn't save anyone, not even one person, as his ideal self should have been able to do.  Even with his human limitations, he has been fighting trace and human criminals alike not believing himself to be inferior, only to have the reality of his human powerlessness hit him all at once.  In the face of their abilities, there was literally nothing he could do: he couldn't even fire a single shot. His talk about justice and standing up no matter whether the criminal was trace or not flew out the window, and all he could do was play by their rules, in hopes of doing the one thing he could do; save at least Yeon Joo. but he couldn't do that either.  Just when he had given up on standing up and fighting for justice, Yeon Joo did what he didn't have the courage to do.  She fought back, and played by her own rules, and made him promise to live, catch them and uphold the justice he always talked about protecting with her dying breath. And thus, not only did he not fight back, he couldn't even save Yeon Joo, either.  His analysis was not wrong: he concluded that unless he played by the rules, he couldn't save anyone, and sure enough, after Yoon's sacrifice, they were going to off him anyway; if another trace hadn't intervened, he'd be dead. Additionally, he finds out in ch 18, that he was both saved and condemned in turn by all 3 trace criminals in his life that day.  No matter what he did that day, his fate would have been decided by a trace, and there was nothing he could do about it. Suh is not a character who is afraid of dying; nothing he has ever done indicates that.  He was, however, someone who thought he would always be able to do what's right; trace or no.  That day, he found out he was wrong; that there was nothing he could do against a trace.  "What was I supposed to do back there?! I'm also only human."

 

He then immediately finds out that he has become a trace, and he's glad that he is no longer only human and wishes he had been more than just human at that time.

 

The English is consistent with itself and the art because it was made to be. Nasty Cat purposely chose wording to mislead the readers; I was also misled until the reveal at the end, and the Korean is even more poignant on second read, when you realize how much work went into making it so that it could easily be interpreted both ways. It's like watching Madoka ep 10 and then going back to re-watch the series; it was a totally different experience - truly good writing.

 

But there was a point in English that's inconsistent: when he says "officer yoon can live!" you also noticed how contradictory that would be to what he said in the previous sentence, even according to the scans here.  You concluded that he was deluding himself, but doesn't that make even less sense? Even in English, those opening lines were obviously inconsistent.  Still, your analyses are well thought out given the information you had.

 

Spoiler

 

I completely disagree with your interpretation. I don't read Korean, so I know my argument is weak from the start, but the artwork and the translation sync up very well - he was struggling because he wanted to save himself too.

 

If it was as simple as what you said, then all of the internal dialogue contradicts itself - it is completely useless to show someone struggling over something they're committed to doing. If he wanted to save her life and sacrifice his own, then he knew where the ball was, all he needed to do was reach for the cup.

 

The drama of the scene is consistent with the current translation because he is struggling. All those internal thoughts, not to mention the way the scene dragged on in Ch.14; these things have purpose because they reveal his inability to reconcile himself to death. We see him in a situation where he's responsible for more than one life - and he is paralyzed. All of the cops around him were dying while he just stood there. He has been recklessly putting himself at risk up to this point, so it's even more poignant - when the control of a life-threatening situation is completely taken out of his hands, he ultimately values his life. He can't choose to save her life because he doesn't want to lose his own.

 

The tortured thoughts that continue into Chapter 16 also reinforce his pain at struggling through that situation. Why is he asking this question if your scenario is correct?:

Spoiler

 

So, no. I don't take any of my analysis back. This is compelling because he has been shown the contrast between his ideal self - the man of justice - and his real self - a man who is afraid to die.That's just good writing.

 

 

Spoiler

 

That was some next-level analysis, for sure. And yeah, it seems just about right on.

 

I think either of our interpretations are acceptable. They both play out equally well. And they're both quite similar. yay!

Ra-Leader, on 18 Mar 2014 - 04:21, said: [spoiler]
[/spoiler]

I completely disagree with your interpretation. I don't read Korean, so I know my argument is weak from the start, but the artwork and the translation sync up very well - he was struggling because he wanted to save himself too.

If it was as simple as what you said, then all of the internal dialogue contradicts itself - it is completely useless to show someone struggling over something they're committed to doing. If he wanted to save her life and sacrifice his own, then he knew where the ball was, all he needed to do was reach for the cup.

The drama of the scene is consistent with the current translation because he is struggling. All those internal thoughts, not to mention the way the scene dragged on in Ch.14; these things have purpose because they reveal his inability to reconcile himself to death. We see him in a situation where he's responsible for more than one life - and he is paralyzed. All of the cops around him were dying while he just stood there. He has been recklessly putting himself at risk up to this point, so it's even more poignant - when the control of a life-threatening situation is completely taken out of his hands, he ultimately values his life. He can't choose to save her life because he doesn't want to lose his own.

The tortured thoughts that continue into Chapter 16 also reinforce his pain at struggling through that situation. Why is he asking this question if your scenario is correct?:
[spoiler][/spoiler]

So, no. I don't take any of my analysis back. This is compelling because he has been shown the contrast between his ideal self - the man of justice - and his real self - a man who is afraid to die.That's just good writing.


[spoiler]
[/spoiler]

That was some next-level analysis, for sure. And yeah, it seems just about right on.

I think either of our interpretations are acceptable. They both play out equally well. And they're both quite similar. yay!

Sorry, ALL YOU GUYS ARE WRONG.  Suh never wanted to save himself; he was going to sacrifice himself.

 

The translation for that is not right.  He never once says "I" or "save myself".  Korean doesn't use pronouns unless absolutely necessary, so it was left ambiguous who he was trying to save he just says "there's a way to survive", but we are lead to believe he meant himself. 

 

Then, in chapter 15, it's revealed:

 

Going on what these guys say...

If I grab the cup on the left, then (someone) can live.

In the video also there was always only one left alive.

If those guys are telling the truth, then...

(someone) can live!

Just Officer Yoon...

can live!(can be saved!)

No matter what...

even if it's just Yeon Joo....

 

THAT'S what he really said.  He never tried to save himself; they were both planning to sacrifice themselves for the other.  Although it was misleading on purpose til ch15, so the translators had to put something and chose "I" instead of finding an ambiguous way to do it. Even I thought he had turned selfish for a minute until that chapter, so I would have made the same mistake (I'm a Viki translator), but I can't stand by and let you guys be misled further.  I personally think it's more interesting if he had been selfish, but he wasn't, so the analyses below need to be revised accordingly (really, just Raleader, but I put caps up top in hopes that everyone will read this post); other than that they're great: I'm happy to see people thinking so deeply about this manwha, because it's worth it.

 

Twisted Hel Scans is doing a great job and I hope they find time to make this correction.  A quick convo with the translator (if they are a native speaker) will show this is right.  

Bravo, what a great post.
Well said, well written.
Especially the last part, of bringing to the light to the puppeteers.
It's so good to read a post like this.

I've given it my like, it certainly deserves so; but there's just a tiny point with which I don't concur:

 

 

Well, that's just my way of seeing things, but to my understanding they aren't averse to good sentiments and that's not the object of their disgust (or at least the... girl?'s)

They are cynics; jaded and skeptical individuals that don't believe such goodness of heart can exist.
They believe humanity is rotten I'm its core.
They find delight in seeking and exposing this hidden aspect of human nature to every one to see.

Yes, they probably find pleasure in it because by seeing humanity's worst side they feel, if not redeemed, at least equal.
They are bad. But then, everyone is, they are just the ones that carry it openly almost like a banner.
And they reveal not only theirs but others too. Those, that say they don't have.

But why would this be redeeming?
Because they can see themselves as just a byproduct of this new era, one of chaos, survival and cynicism.
Yes, cynicism, because their sense of life is just, or punishment comes to the bad ones and bliss to the good ones is broken.
There is no such a thing as justice and no matter how beautiful the discourse out how beatific one had led his life anything can happen to them, and they would also do anything to continue to live.

Redeeming also, because though they are all rotten at the core they are the only ones true to it.
So, they become a lesser sort of evil, a nobler evil.
Perhaps even a necessary one for they are showing the other's true colors.


They see themselves in a good light.
They believe they are, if not good (an warped ally of justice bringing out the evil inside of people and punishing them for it), then at least better than the scum that is the rest.


They don't feel disgusted by it, for them, it simply doesn't exist.
It's a shock, a paradigm.

When they saw it, what they probably felt beside astonishment, was bitter.
They felt hollow.

And above all, they felt dirty.

It reminded them that such good things still existed in the world.
And if that is true goodness.. Then what are they?

They are dirty. They are better than no one.
That they did that to someone that pure... That marks them as the worst of them all.

...

They know how they will be seen by others because there was a moment of truth back then.
They stopped seeing themselves in the favorable lights they were painting and saw it under a much harsher light.
One that left no doubt to what they truly are.
And if they could see the monster inside of them, which disgusted them so, then what are the chances others won't see the same?