Kingdom

@sssr  Please put your paragraphs in a spoiler.

Not everyone that died at Chouhei was a soldier (see: Mangoku). I guess I was a bit misleading by using it as a comparison.

 

Also: just because wars become more modern doesn't mean casualties increase. With the advancements in technologies come adaptations in military tactics, and trenches were goddamned good at sheltering people from mortar fire. Or are you saying that the wars in Iraq and Afghanistan should have seen tens of millions of deaths?

 

Looking at the data from the Qin dynasty (which is pretty well-documented), they had an army of a little below a million. The numbers in the Warring States might be exaggerated (due to the scarcity of sources) but shouldn't be that far below this number.

[spoiler]

Mangoku was as much a soldier in Chouhei as Shin was in the Wei campaign. The ancients had a different view on child soldiering. The number of soldiers killed in Chouhei is probably an exaggeration, but not by far. Ancient sources are surprisingly objective on this matter because they quote both Hakuki's report to the King and the Zhao condemnation (national tragedy monument) listing the clans and families affected by the calamity. The accepted estimate is somewhere between 150,000 to 300,000 casualties. It should be noted that Chouhei was a historical landmark BECAUSE the number of casualties was uncommonly high. No other battle before had had so many casualties. Hakuki was deliberately acting to break the back of the Zhao state, which at the time was a large modern state with population close to that of contemporary Italy.

 

Most Rome vs China debates tend to miss the population numbers involved and the radical difference in political system that lead to radical differences in army make-up. Most of the Warring States relied heavily on peasant levies to bolster the number of troops. This is made possible by a largely feudal and clan-dominated political system governed by legalism. As the award ceremony shows, with the ennoblement of those with achievements, joining an army was the best way for a peasant to rise above his station. In Rome, the reward for 25 years of service was citizenship for non-citizens and possibly a plot of land (assuming the Empire was expanding) for citizens. The value of rewards was simply higher for the average Qin peasant than for the average Roman legionary. 

 

In addition, as much as Sei might think that the citizens of Qin did not think much of their royals, in fact they did (as the manga itself shows). Peasants did happily sacrifice themselves for kings on the basis of that mystical belief of the sacrosanct nature of kingship. Romans killed their kings. By and large, a volunteer army made up of people who had very little respect for the authority of nobles had to be limited in scope and size. Recruitment had to be done carefully else the Legions might turn against the State (as in fact they did, many times). Where the Warring States could easily levy as much as 1/3 of their entire adult male population for the armies at any given time, Rome dared not mobilize more than 10%, and only about a third of this number (the Legions) were professional soldiers. The simple fact was that the Legions were the biggest risk to the Senate of the Republic and the Emperors of a later time. It was unwise for a society set up like Rome's to allow too many men to bear arms.

 

However, while Chinese wars were much larger in scope thanks to the sheer numbers of soldiers that could be mobilized, Chinese PEACE was much the same as the Pax Romana. The entirety of the Han Empire was guarded by no more than 400,000 soldiers, out of which 50,000 were cavalry. Most of the infantry just sat tight where they were posted, with the cavalry being dispatched wherever and whenever trouble reared its ugly head. When the Empire broke up, the various warlords revived the peasant levies of the Warring States, leading to Cao Cao's 200,000 soldiers in Red Cliff.

[/spoiler]

 

 

 

But... but... Kyokai is too pretty to have been a product of inbreeding.

 

Actually, this idea of "inbreeding makes your kids look like Cletus" is largely a myth, especially where it regards women. Cleopatra VII, whose charms conquered just about any male conqueror sent her way, was the product of six generations of sisters marrying their brothers (for that matter, she did too). The more recent case of the "Hapsburg chin", commonly set forward as evidence of the evils of inbreeding, completely ignores the existence of even-more-inbred Marie Antoinette, in her time considered the most beautiful woman in Europe. The Prussian monarchy, known for their dashing princes and beautiful ladies, was also heavily inbred before the blood of Victoria (also heavily inbred) entered their veins. Yes, recessive genes often result in deformities of the body, but that's not necessarily the rule.

 

 

 

Man that awards ceremony was so cheesy. Had to be done some way though.

 

It is actually quite sad, in a way. Whereas the late generals Choutou and Duke Hyou received posthumous awards, they completely ignored the noble sacrifice of that mighty warrior whose time was so tragically cut short on the battlefield: The honorable Rokuomi.

Only 2 things worth mentioning through these 3 chapters.  Shin skipped an entire rank 2000 man commander to 3000 man commander and he now has Duke's crack troops.

I wonder if this ends with the unification of china or if they will show what happens next, i specially want to see the burning of books and burying of scholars (Fen Shu Keng Ru).

 

I hope so but I seriously doubt they'll go past the unification of China. It would be very unlike the theme and direction of this manga for them to show the burning of books and burying of scholars.

Man that awards ceremony was so cheesy. Had to be done some way though.

 

On a side note, Kyoukai is about to get more character development in a couple chapters than Shin has had in the entire series so far. Anyways, It's about time for someone in Shin's retinue to die. Anyone. Even the little scrub guy that has no business being in the army.Maybe that will mature Shin at least a little bit.

Seems a no named mod deleted my comment you freaking prick.

ahhh!again am totally satisfied with this 3 chapters and the Kyoukai saga is here at last! this is gonna be  a tremendous encounter! i will just sit back and enjoy it. je,je,je, there's  simply nothing better than Kingdom!

ancient sources regularly massively overestimated the number of soldiers, there is no way in hell that one side had  450k soldiers dying at chouhei. the battle of verdun (which took nearly a year) had possibly that many casualties per side, but with only 150k deaths per side. that was in the modern world with all the advances in technology allowing large populations and the ability to kill large numbers of people easily

Not everyone that died at Chouhei was a soldier (see: Mangoku). I guess I was a bit misleading by using it as a comparison.

 

Also: just because wars become more modern doesn't mean casualties increase. With the advancements in technologies come adaptations in military tactics, and trenches were goddamned good at sheltering people from mortar fire. Or are you saying that the wars in Iraq and Afghanistan should have seen tens of millions of deaths?

 

Looking at the data from the Qin dynasty (which is pretty well-documented), they had an army of a little below a million. The numbers in the Warring States might be exaggerated (due to the scarcity of sources) but shouldn't be that far below this number.

ancient sources regularly massively overestimated the number of soldiers, there is no way in hell that one side had  450k soldiers dying at chouhei. the battle of verdun (which took nearly a year) had possibly that many casualties per side, but with only 150k deaths per side. that was in the modern world with all the advances in technology allowing large populations and the ability to kill large numbers of people easily

I wonder if this ends with the unification of china or if they will show what happens next, i specially want to see the burning of books and burying of scholars (Fen Shu Keng Ru).

Are you sure that you know enough about either to make that statement?

I took a look at the scale of the campaigns led by either side.

Rome had around 50 legions in their whole history, each containing up to 5400 soldiers. That puts the number of men to 270 000 (although they were accompanied by auxiliaries).

Wikipedia however notes that at its peak, the Roman army comprised 450 000 men. To give an idea, that's about the casualties of Chouhei.

 

Taking the Battle of Teutoburg Forest as an example, the Romans lost three legions (completely decimated) along with their auxiliary troops. They lost about 20 000 men in total.

 

Taking the battle of Bayou as an example, Qin had 100 000 soldiers, while Zhao had 120 000 soldiers.

 

The difference of scale is pretty noticeable IMO, which is why I expressed my astonishment.

 

Of course, that doesn't mean the achievements of the Roman empire were inferior or anything. I guess the situation was just far bloodier during the Warring States.

Time for some vengeance. Hell yeah.

In some earlier chapter , he was also seen to be eating snakes. 

Yeah, you are right, the moving tail made me thought it was a tailfin for some reason.

 

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Now it's finally kyoukai's arc.  I'm starting to think her tribe might be related to the Xia matriarchal tribes (西夏, not 夏朝 in case someone jumps the gun here).

Roman overpowered ? Pffft you must be kidding me They're strong because they're discipline They build fort everytime they set up camp, and always in a square area with easily defensible position.. They're not always strong, there are times when they got beaten up pretty badly by carthage or gaul or goth Indeed in the end they triumph, but also at a great cost sometimes (their army wasn't all that good before the reform) Also, romans couldn't push all the way to germany due to the terrain So they're not OP, but they're good with strategies and they're discipline

Also, the blame of said defeats fell on the head of whoever was leading them. So there was never any real backlash from the populous for losing a campaign; they had a "it's the general's fault we lost, not that we are inferior." mentality going. 

Damn, the Warring States make Roman's campaigns look like kindergarten brawls in comparison.

Are you sure that you know enough about either to make that statement?

different setting...the roman were so op that when setting on a serious campaign they just destroyed their enemies.
 
here everyone is on an equal ground....and that's why it appear so much bigger

Roman overpowered ? Pffft you must be kidding me
They're strong because they're discipline
They build fort everytime they set up camp, and always in a square area with easily defensible position..

They're not always strong, there are times when they got beaten up pretty badly by carthage or gaul or goth

Indeed in the end they triumph, but also at a great cost sometimes (their army wasn't all that good before the reform)
Also, romans couldn't push all the way to germany due to the terrain
So they're not OP, but they're good with strategies and they're discipline

different setting...the roman were so op that when setting on a serious campaign they just destroyed their enemies.

 

here everyone is on an equal ground....and that's why it appear so much bigger

actually, historically, QIn was already the strongest state by now and the other states are no match for Qin. The author made all the states seem to be of equal strength is to make the manga more epic. it wouldnt be fun to see Qin destroying the other states in wars without much trouble right?

I love those award ceremonies. And when it comes time for Shin's turn, the tension really goes through the roof, as if I'm right there, waiting for my name to be called. Simply awesome. Although, I was hoping, like some others, that he'd be promoted higher. If not straight to general, then at least 5000-man commander. Anyway, it turned out fine in the end. His men may have slaughtered him if he insisted on counting all the way to 5000.

I just love Shin getting rewards. Makes me happy for some reason.

 

I also just noticed - he's got his pants! Now I know the reason he did not wear his armor for so long...

Damn, the Warring States make Roman's campaigns look like kindergarten brawls in comparison.

different setting...the roman were so op that when setting on a serious campaign they just destroyed their enemies.

 

here everyone is on an equal ground....and that's why it appear so much bigger

I will be very sad if Kyoukai die.

Me toooo! <3 Kyoukai

Spoiler

Kyoukai beheads that bitch

My reaction to that is a pfft that horses make, and a grin. Straight forward and funny, the best kind of comedy even if it's informative.

when the were talking about kyoukai in the camp

 

that was pretty much a death flag D:

Nah, if the clan is as isolated as depicted here, they must have a captive supply of males for breeding, and their birthrate must be quite high seeing as it is that the majority of girls in the tribe never even reach adulthood. Male babies are probably allowed to live as breeding supply and to do the menial labor, seeing as the roles are reversed and the only thing the women actually do is go around killing people.

 

Also, it's implied that the Shiyuu and Bushin had the same origins and use the exact same technique, except that the Bushin have unlimited (or just very long) breath. At some point in the past, the villages might have been more balanced societies.

 

But... but... Kyokai is too pretty to have been a product of inbreeding.