70 replies to this topic

[truepurple]

Frozen Ice, that could mean because the punch was so pathetic that it was clear to Unnamed, that Leez wasn't even accessing much or any of the power of the name yet. Wasted because she can't even really use it when she wants it. And/or that she is using her strength to punch people for such childish reasons, and when she doesn't even know if they are strong enough to survive it, so for her to get the strength of the name as well, would just be a waste.

And she probably does tap into the names power just a bit, but nothing like her potential.

The bracelet drains her normal supernatural strength and forces her to tap into the power of the name, I bet. Her potential might even be to eventually be able to use it without needing a bunch of stamina as a cost, and then after that, it won't even matter to her, just a crutch. Which means Unnamed wants her to learn to use the names powers, for survival at least.

Could you imagine if Unnamed was one of Leez's ancestors? Her great grandpa or something. In which case, he sure is cold to his offspring. Just pondering here.

Edited by truepurple, 16 December 2012 - 07:35 PM.

[Arkeus]

Could you imagine if Unnamed was one of Leez's ancestors? Her great grandpa or something. In which case, he sure is cold to his offspring. Just pondering here.

Children of Astikas are semi-common, and they are just baseline humans.

[youngdoom]

Who is a child of an Astika?

[Boredoom]

Ran's grandmother. Kasak. Just to mention a few.

[Arkeus]

Ran's grandmother. Kasak. Just to mention a few.

Astika = Gods, not Nastika.
And the only Astika child we know by name (or that i can remember) is not common, sadly, but that's because i don't think Kali can be described as a Astika anyway.

[truepurple]

What do you mean by "baseline human"?

[Arkeus]

What do you mean by "baseline human"?

I mean that in the lore children by Astikas with humans are just humans. It's POSSIBLE that they have nicer odds of getting triple attributes and higher divine affinity, but that would probably be the extent of their specialness.
Leeze, on the other hand, was stronger than quarters and maybe halves before leaving her hometown, and she only got stronger since then (even without the bracelet/Hot Kubera). Of course, her 'history' is special, given both her parents were Triple Kubera, that she is a Triple Kubera, and that something funky happened with her father and Visnu.

[Kreiri]

Well, for a child of god to be a god, there must be a Name for this child to grab. I'd say that you don't even have to be a god by blood - you'll be a god as long as you have the right Name.

[Akasha]

A reasonable guess would be that humanity orginated from the gods having children over time that spread across the world and over billion of years lots of Sura blood got mixed in? Purebloods got less than the 25% Sura blood cap but that doesn´t mean that they got no Sura blood in them. Would explain the issue with fiendish affinity and divine affinity as well as birth attributes to some degree other than "A wizard did it" and presents a decent alternative to the assumption that these humans simply were created to "give the gods a laughable weak race to rule over" to "ease their boredom".

Edited by Akasha, 17 December 2012 - 12:37 PM.

[Kreiri]

A reasonable guess would be that humanity orginated from the gods having children over time that spread across the world and over billion of years lots of Sura blood got mixed in? Purebloods got less than the 25% Sura blood cap but that doesn´t mean that they got no Sura blood in them. Would explain the issue with fiendish affinity and divine affinity as well as birth attributes to some degree other than "A wizard did it" and presents a decent alternative to the assumption that these humans simply were created to "give the gods a laughable weak race to rule over" to "ease their boredom".

On the other hand, that assumption fits nicely into "Visnu is evil" theory

[Departure]

I haven’t read Kubera in a while, so after reading the latest chapter, I decided to take a look at the forums, and try to answer your questions the best I could, while getting my point across. So to backup my answers I took references from each chapter. Sorry it took forever; I just wanted to be thorough.

If Leez is to be the next God Kubera, then why is she still mortal? Evidently she can still be killed at this point, and even in the future (Agni's insight: "Why am I fighting for my life? For the responsibility of protecting this name.")

Why is Leez still mortal? Well I believe it’s a process, it will take time for Leez to control her own strength, and in due time claim the name of ‘Kubera’ for herself, and she will eventually achieve immortality.

I believe that Agni was asking that question to himself. Perhaps it’s a great responsibility and a great burden to be the “god Agni”. Perhaps he wants to stop being “god Agni” and this way he would be able to be with Brilith. And maybe in the near future this will be his choice (that’s what I think anyways).

God Kubera isn't just using common spells, several of the abilities he used are listed as "Unique transcendentals." Currygom explained in the blog that there are "common" abilities that anyone with the right transcendental values + attributes can use, and unique transcendentals usable only by those individuals. Evidently, God Kubera is still able to use them. Also, evidently, he's still immortal (in the sense of long-living), since he lost his name a long time ago but is still running around. So, what does "losing his name" really mean for him?

I am not arguing that he can’t use transcendentals, why wouldn’t he be able to, when he lost his name, not the right to live, or the right to use them. Like you said “Unique transcendentals” are usable only by those individuals. I’m not saying that he ceased to be Kubera completely, if he were to choose to kill Leez, I believe he could regain his name and the total and complete power that comes with it(I believe that this answers the first part of your first question and the last part of your second question).

S1-84 Kubera to Agni: I have committed a terrible wrong.

Bent upon the conquest before my eyes, I overlooked the importance of the ‘Power of the Name’.

Soon enough…

I will no longer have a place in the world of the gods.

S1-87 Unkown: Kubera.

Wait, you’re not Kubera anymore. I don’t know what to call you.

S1-85 Sagara: We failed to eliminate all of the humans in the city…but if we had managed to kill the target, our mission would have been a success.

‘His’ power remains unchanged. The Target in Atera is still alive.

*(I believe that the power “Mister” now possesses if barely a portion of what he once had. I believe that when his name was taken away a portion of his power was too. Kubera cannot take possession of his ‘name’, strength and powers, as long as Leez lives)

As for the immortal part, what would be the point of killing a being that would only be reincarnated later on? Like I said, I believe that Visnu ripped/took Kubera’s name and bestowed it onto someone else, that someone being Leez. Leez not being able to control such power, is on a journey to learn to control her strength, and eventually be able to claim the name for herself, while Kubera’s power is slowly but surely draining to be Leez's one day.

And to expand on Kubera’s immortality, as long as his jurisdiction exists he exists, and remains immortal, but that doesn’t mean he can’t be destroyed:

*(Visnu doesn’t need a jurisdiction in order to exist for all eternity; even if the universe were to disappear he would not cease to exist. He’s is truly immortal. Kubera on the other hand, could not exist if his jurisdiction, all things made of earth, would cease to exist and unless Visnu decides to destroy the entire universe, Kubera would not be able to die. And again why punish everyone for the mistake of one. That’s why I believe that it was Visnu who took Kubera’s name from him, because if he could not kill him without damaging the universe itself, than might as well punish him by taking his name away and giving it to someone else)

S1-99 Asha: There are names which hold a special kind of power…
…And they were given preferentially to the first living creatures of the universe.

According to the names they received,
The first beings were split into two groups:
‘Those who are strong, but live only once’, and
‘Those who are weaker, but can resurrect themselves an infinite number of times’.

The primeval gods christened them, respectively,
‘Nastika’ and ‘Astika’…

…But the definition of Astika later became vague,
And they came to be known as ‘Natural Gods’ or ‘Created gods’.

The one who named them was primeval god Visnu.
Visnu already had a name which was immortal without regard to the existence of the universe. He had no interest in keeping other names which would give power in the new world.

And so, as new lives were born, he gave each of them a name…
Alternating between the names of Nastika and Astika.

The main issue with it all is -why is it a big deal from the Sura point of view-? Gods are weak compared to Nastika. If one God gets replaced by another, it's simply not a big deal. So why does Leez have 5 species of Sura trying to kill her?

If replacing a god is a ‘simple’ matter than replacing Kubera would have been an easy task, even for Visnu. But then again, I don’t think Visnu wanted to see the whole universe affected by Kubera’s mistake, and perhaps if he had willingly let go of his name along with his jurisdiction Leez would had become the next Kubera much faster and without having Nastika try to end her life in the process.

I thought this part would be obvious, though I am not sure of this myself. Why would Nastika work/help Kubera take back his name when he was the one that caused all this misfortune in the first place, he was the one who killed Ananta after all. Well, perhaps it’s because he’s the only one who can open a door between realms by sheer strength, can Nastika do this? If not then there’s your answer.

I’m sure they are not cooperating with him out of kindness; they too have something to gain in the process, and for that they need Kubera’s full power; this comes at the expense of Leez's life.

S1-71 Sagara to Brilith: Well, I do know their real name…but it’s the name of a god, so they’ll be using an alias. I don’t think they’ll be easy to find.

The name of the human we’re trying to find is ‘Kubera’.

* (In this part Sagara gets straight to the point and mentions that the ‘Human’s name’ IS Kubera, and that the ‘Human’ is using an alias. To the Nastika Leez is an alias, and Kubera is Leez's real name.)

S1-85 Sagara: We failed to eliminate all of the humans in the city…but if we had managed to kill the target, our mission would have been a success.

‘His’ power remains unchanged. The Target in Atera is still alive.

* (If I’m right, here it’s insinuated that ‘His’, in this case, Kubera’s power remains unchanged, because the target, Leez is still alive. On that note, I believe that Kubera used to be much stronger than he is now, but after Leez was bestowed the name Kubera, his name and a portion of his powers went with it. Perhaps, and I’m not sure, if Kubera decides to once again reclaim his name and all of his powers he would eventually end up killing Leez, and become Kubera once more, but until that happens, Leez is on her way to completely claim his name, it’s just a matter of time, and training.)

Rao Leez named his daughter Kubera because he wanted her to become happy. I'm pretty sure "Lifetime employment as a Sura target" wasn't on his mind. Now, I do think Visnu is the one who made him name her that, but I think he was tricked. From the novel, we know that Visnu has a flawless reputation and that humans and Sura alike love him. But, he may have been the one to plot the destruction of Ian's village, and the blame got pushed onto Utpala.

I believe you just answer this yourself; the problem was not naming Leez ‘Kubera’. Here Brilith mentions:

S1-84 Brilith: The pricklier gods get offended by that, but it doesn’t actually cause any problems. Even in Atera, there are five people whose real name is Agni.

*(Here, Brilith mentions that gods sometimes get offended if humans are named after them, but it does not cause a commotion, however in Leez's case it started a chase for her very life.)

And if Visnu tricked Rao into naming his daughter Kubera, wouldn’t that be a significantly important aspect of the story? This’s Visnu we’re talking about, one of the Primeval Gods who created and named the natural gods.To have named Leez, Kubera, without plotting or achieving something in the process, is strange. I know that Visnu is a trickster; he is not the neutral god he pretends to be. He watches from the sidelines, and when he acts he does as he pleases, but in this case, we know that Kubera had a hand in Ananta’s death, I’m sure he chose to punish Kubera for the wrong that he did. He couldn’t completely destroy Kubera for the reason’s mentioned above. No one but Visnu, could have taken Kubera’s name and bestowed it upon someone else. If the explanation below is accurate, then only a Primeval God, the gods in charge of creating and naming the natural gods, would have the right and kind of power to separate the god/being from its actual name.

S1-84 Agni to Brilith: Gods are structured in completely different ways to humans or Sura. Their body and soul cannot be separated, and their power, memory, and name, among others, all form one concept.

Brilith: Power, memory, and name are all one…? Why is the name included in the list?
Agni: Well, the name is important. The names of gods are special.
Brilith: Um, does a ‘Human with a god’s name’ have something to do with this?
Agni: A human with a god’s name?

The Sura that attacked us said they were here to kill the human with a god’s name.

They said the attack was because of a human named ‘Kubera’…

That’s strange, right? Why are Sura chasing the name of Kubera?

S1-88 Kubera to Leez: I have no name.

Giving me a name is no such simple matter.

Continue to call me ‘Mister’, as you have been doing.

And that only remains possible while you do not imbue the title with the significance of a name.

I would also like to point something out, in S1-32; I don’t know if anyone questioned why was Leez capable of hurting ‘Mister’. The reason - in that instance her strength surpassed that of ‘Mister’s’, or else she wouldn’t have been able to do the damage that she did if she only used her normal human strength. It was not because that’s a man’s most sensitive area.

A human capable of hurting a god in the slightest, have events like this taken place during the beginning of the story? Also, when this happened Leez wasn’t wearing the bracelet at the time.

S1-32 Kubera to Leez: So, you are not weak after all. You simply lack control and know nothing about your own strength.

You were lucky, kid.

That kick would have killed any normal human being.

[Mizura]

^The fact you stated aren't incorrect, it just feels as though that theory is too simple, just like "Oh, Ian thought that Taksaka killed her family when in fact Utpala did." (and indeed, that turned out to not be the true story)

You're basically saying that:

• As punishment for killing Ananta, God Kubera is having his name gradually transferred to another person: Kubera Leez
• Once the transfer is complete, she'll be the new God Kubera
• The Sura are helping God Kubera because he's the only one who can open the gates across dimensions

But all the following are left out:

• How did God Kubera kill Ananta? It shouldn't even be possible. The Way he killed Ananta must be more significant than the mere fact: Yaksha died too, and that didn't seem like too big a deal. Shuri took over, and that was that.
• Ananta had already died by the time of The Finite, which was over a hundred years ago. Why did the transfer process only start Now?
• What did Garuda's children have to do with all this?
• N0 is very, very likely tied to all this. Leez was born in N0 too. N0 caused two primeval Gods to disappear and the 3 major races to be separated. This is a huge deal, I doubt it's explainable by something as simple as godship transfer.
• Also, Leez saw Ananta in her dream recently. That shows that there's more to it. Nastika don't have an afterlife, so what's the strongest being in the Universe doing in Leez' dream?
• And if God Kubera just wanted his power back at first, he could have killed Leez himself, he simply didn't need to call over all those Sura. And now that he decided to let her live, there's no reason for him to keep sending them at her. Conversely, if all the Sura had to gain was "God Kubera opening the gates for them", then that plan should stop as soon as they realize that God Kubera isn't planning to kill Leez (I'm pretty sure they'll figure things out eventually). Basically, there is no reason, from either side, to explain why the Sura would still be chasing Leez in the future. Unless there's a different reason involved than just opening gates.
• Finally, there's the title: "One Last God Kubera."

Obviously there's a lot more than meets the eye.

Edited by Mizura, 16 January 2013 - 10:56 AM.

[Eleean]

The discussion is really impressive.
But there is a misconception, that is "Once Leez is killed, God Kubera will eventually regain his name". False. God Kubera has lost his name, and we also know that, if Leez were to die, he wouldn't have anymore his power, represented by what "Kubera" means, his jurisdiction in few words.
The idea is that God Kubera and Leez now hold, together, the essence of "Kubera". There is no gradual transition, Leez won't become the new God Kubera, she just bears the power of the name "Kubera". The responsibility of protecting this name, only the name.
My guessing is that without the name and the rest of Kubera, that is indeed our God Kubera, what "God Kubera" represents(his magic, his jurisdiction, his power...) will cease to exist, that is against the rule given to every Astika name. And since God Kubera cannot die, he lost his name, given to a mortal.
Maybe "one last God Kubera" doesn't mean, as I have always though, "One last God: Kubera", "Kubera, the last among the Gods", but "one last 'God Kubera'", "the last 'God Kubera'".

[battradio]

We don't know for sure that Leez is the sura's target or only target , Asha was at Leez village when Maruna unleashed

• Crimson Sunshine of Dawn upon it .There may have been multiple humans targeted , lots of villages without Barrier Orb's have been destroyed .

[smthFishy]

I have fond memories of the Earthsea series, a saga by Ursula Le Guin, where the "name" holds the "essence" of the person. To know someone's true name is can in fact be able to command him or her into doing whatever you want. Was wondering if Kubera, which was originally planned as a novel, saw the references to this.

What makes it fascinating is that the names in Kubera can carry flaws or defects. I imagine that when God Kubera made his wager with Anantha, he must have said something like: if I violate the above said rules, may my name be cursed forever, and die a slow painful death by the hands of the suras! I suspect he cunningly gave away his name to escape the curse, to an unsuspecting human who desire power (like Asha's mom?) So, anyone with the Name gains not only power but also the curse that goes along with it.

So here's the fascinating part. Kubera means Earth, or perhaps, more abstractly, strength, endurance, courage. What if the name also carries a death penalty? And then, what would you do if you find out the truth behind your name? Do you fight to protect your Name (existence) with your Name (strength/courage) against your Name (inevitable death?) That feels so awesome, like something coming out of a Camus or Sartre. Currygom's pretty good....

[Euodiachloris]

^I'm not sure about alterations of names, though: they're supposed to have inbuilt benefits and/or flaws from the start. <shrugs> So, unless the name "Kubera" had a claymore mine of a surprise embedded in it to make it possible to add a curse-clause to it, I'm not seeing it. Unless Brahma was listening in and decided, "Meh, why not? The jerk deserves a lesson..." With none of the other Primordials around to undo that...

From an Earthsea perspective: you can Name something (Sparrowhawk certainly used that trick, after all ), but to change a Name takes more than a Dragon... with a lot of reason, because of the danger of changing more than just that one Name. Names interact. However, you can twist the use of a Name to an extent (like, withholding a part of it), if you can lie and shade truth using the language of names... Hmmm...

Dunno. <shrugs>

Edited by Euodiachloris, 17 January 2013 - 08:27 AM.

[smthFishy]

True enough, in Earthsea, Names can be learned but not altered. But if you recall, Sparrowhawk summoned a Nameless One (Kali incarnate) and unleashed chaos onto the world. It turns out that the Nameless One took Ged's name along with many defects in it. So there is the similarity of Name transference in both series.

I agree with Akio_NE in a previous post that a Primitive God might have tempered with Kubera's Name. I think it might have been done by Kali. If anyone knows about defective or dangerous Names, it would be her. Of course, it's all speculation at this point, but it's incredibly fun. I think we're at the point in the story where we have all the major pieces of the story on the table, and we need one thread to bind them all.

I wasn't planning to go into sage Gnostic mode, but what the heck, here goes. I think Names are inherently self-standing. There's a quest in modernity to search for certainty, the lever with which to pivot the Universe, and some have pined their hopes on the connection of Names and what they represent. There's a parallel quest in modernity to deconstruct certainty, including the association of Names and what they represent. I think those in the deconstructionist camp has certainly triumphed in the political and economic realms. With their powers stolen and evicted from the human realm, Names have no choice but to withdraw from the outer world and into the world of the psyche, where they quietly persist.

Edited by tumbleweed, 17 January 2013 - 07:21 PM.

[Euodiachloris]

True enough, in Earthsea, Names can be learned but not altered. But if you recall, Sparrowhawk summoned a Nameless One (Kali incarnate) and unleashed chaos in the world. It turns out that the Nameless One took Ged's name along with many defects in it. So there is the similarity of Name transference.

Uhhh... that was what I was trying to hint at without spoiling it for anybody who hasn't read the books. Naming the nameless seems to be a privilege only allowed Vishnu, though, here. Or, is it a combination of the Primeval Gods working together? <ponders> Whichever: Vishnu had the bag of names, so to speak, however they got stuck onto the beings intended to bear them. And, Kali nicked off with a few after their... uh.. "creative differences".

I wasn't thinking of going into academic mode, but here goes. I think Names are inherently self-standing. There's a quest in modernity to search for certainty, the hinge with which to pivot the Universe, and some have pined their hopes on the connection of Names and what they represent. There's a parallel quest in modernity to deconstruct certainty, including the association of Names and what they represent. I think those in the deconstructionist camp has certainly triumphed in the political and economic realms. With their powers stolen and evicted from the human realm, Names have no choice but to flee, from the natural world to the supernatural world, becoming Gnostic Aeons, where they can endure and find permanence.

That's one interpretation, certainly. We'll have to wait for more, though. <shrugs> The whole "vanishing" deal does smell fishy, and could have several options behind it.

However, I'll have a screaming fit if Asha or Leez are supposed to be a Sophia-cycle in all this Gnosticism, for all they are complimentary and contrasting foils/ shadows of each other and the strong hints that Leez will have to try the whole painful redemption bit for mistakes of the past as she makes her own way.

Edited by Euodiachloris, 17 January 2013 - 08:24 PM.

[Mizura]

Maybe "one last God Kubera" doesn't mean, as I have always though, "One last God: Kubera", "Kubera, the last among the Gods", but "one last 'God Kubera'", "the last 'God Kubera'".

Wow, that is one of the most inspiring theories I've read so far! With this theory, there could have been multiple people bearing the name "Kubera" before Leez. This would explain the time gap between Ananta's death and the current events: perhaps the Name had been transferred from one human to another during this gap, without it truly manifesting itself (lying dormant). That, or, maybe the power gets dispersed among all humans named Kubera, or satisfying some other conditions as well. When the human died, the power got transferred to someone else.

But perhaps during N0, this power went out of control, either because someone exploited it, or it happened unintentionally. Now, as I said before, I always believed that there's more to the name Kubera than its original intended power, like it acquired some of Ananta's power or something else. If that's the case, if someone managed to find and exploit the Power of the Name in N0, this may have caused the Cataclysm, until the Name got transferred to Leez to get sealed again (or something like that). Visnu then separated the races into different realms, specifically isolate the human realm where the Name still remained, to prevent any of the more powerful races from controlling it again. This was the excuse on the surface, however, but in truth, he had things planned to break this chain, making Leez the last to ever bear the name Kubera.

An interesting thing to note is that during one of the insights, Leez said she'd have been so much happier if her father didn't give her the name Kubera. Assuming she knew what she was talking about, this means that she found herself in this situation not just because of who she is, but truly because she was called Kubera during these 16 years. This is a bit strange, because this is a bit like humans assigned her a Name, but only Primeval Gods should be able to assign Names. Now, I doubt Rao Leez and the villagers had such a power, so perhaps Visnu himself assigned unique conditions for the ownership of the name Kubera.

[Euodiachloris]

An interesting thing to note is that during one of the insights, Leez said she'd have been so much happier if her father didn't give her the name Kubera. Assuming she knew what she was talking about, this means that she found herself in this situation not just because of who she is, but truly because she was called Kubera during these 16 years. This is a bit strange, because this is a bit like humans assigned her a Name, but only Primeval Gods should be able to assign Names. Now, I doubt Rao Leez and the villagers had such a power, so perhaps Visnu himself assigned unique conditions for the ownership of the name Kubera.

The whole thing about the 16 years has always sounded like meeting a condition to me. <shrugs> And, I doubt it's a totally in-built one.

But... how do you affix a name to a being that is being created in front of you at the beginning of time, anyway? 16 years in the eyes of both Gods, Astika and Nastika is hardly "long", and could equal gestation.

And, there's a thought: I got the impression that you became Astika or Nastika purely by the name you got given. Until then, you were practically the same kind of being as the rest of the unnamed brands. Unless I'm wrong...

That might be partly why the Chaos clan are pretty formless: they hark back to a state before names, perhaps? After all, they got all the error-prone ones...

Edited by Euodiachloris, 18 January 2013 - 02:48 PM.