70 replies to this topic

[YellowKingValley]

Her name is Ketergent. Stop calling her Kubera, Leez or Haias.

[Goobera]

I put this in spoilers, since it is only remotely related to this thread subject, answering the post by Boredoom:

Spoiler

Also, we can deduce that he still is refered to Kubera based on the magics, when a spell is used a God can change/decline it (it's sure they can change, so I see no reason why they can't decline). So he's still in position of the god Kubera, othwise the magic probably shouldn't work. And for sure it isn't directed to Leez.
Or we should've seem some reactions when allofasudden she gets(?) requests to share her power.

(Based on Agni's "tweaking" during Brilith's magician test where he altered the directions etc. at her spells)

That is quite some theory Could make a lot of sense, and it would mean that no matter who and where is casting a Hoti Kubera or Bhavati Kubera, then the God instantly knows it? Seems like some sort of surveillance system, especially for Leez, who as a Triple Kubera will cast more and more Kubera related spells as the story goes on I am not sure if God Kubera can so easily always know where she is (since he is not Visnu and his Insight has flaws, his power is not endless and is distorted now anyway), but maybe those Hoti Kubera spells she casts are telling him the exact position each time Or maybe he can tell where Leez is anyway, since she has the "Power of the Name", but then, why does he send all those Sura armies after her all this time? Is he bored or something? Or does he just want to test her Kubera powers ?

[Departure]

Yes no matter how much Leez or Asha, for that matter, would like to deny it, Leez is on her way on becoming the next Kubera after the last Kubera fell from Visnu’s good graces.

Also, the name itself is not the only importance, but also the giver of the name. I’m guessing that after what Kubera did, Visnu himself forsake the last Kubera and decided that a new one would be born to replace the last one, since let’s not forget, Natural Gods/Created gods cannot be killed as long as their jurisdictions exist. So how do you replace/destroy what you cannot kill, by finding a substitute who will carry “the name”.
So is for that reason, that Visnu decided to rip Kubera of his name, leaving him nameless, and giving that name to another, that other being Leez.

After all, the power of the ‘name’ does not lie within the Reflection/Representation of that jurisdiction which it represents, the power lies within the jurisdiction itself. So for example, even if Agni were to die, anyone who could use fire would still be able to do so, because the power is in the jurisdiction itself (all things ‘made of’ fire), not the Reflection/Representation of that jurisdiction (in this case the being known as Agni). Sorry if that sounded redundant, hope I got that across.

As for Kubera, to still be able to use those same spells, it doesn’t seem that rare, because even if Leez were to become the next Kubera it would not have any affect over that jurisdiction at all. He can still use the power, because the power is in the ‘name’ (the name being the jurisdiction, the earth, etc.), not the being known as ‘Kubera’. Kubera is just a representation of the jurisdiction (earth), not the jurisdiction itself.

Also, Leez’s father Rao, had to have the approval of Visnu, having met at some point, and with Visnu permission, given the name Kubera to Leez, or else everyone who was named Kubera would be the next candidate to take the place or inherit the name of the ‘god’ Kubera. I would like to believe that Primeval Gods are the only ones who have the last say on who has power as a ‘god’. I would like to believe even humans are not allowed to use the name willy-nilly.

Edited by Akio_NE, 13 December 2012 - 01:22 AM.

[Mizura]

There are still too many holes left though.

• If Leez is to be the next God Kubera, then why is she still mortal? Evidently she can still be killed at this point, and even in the future (Agni's insight: "Why am I fighting for my life? For the responsibility of protecting this name.")
• God Kubera isn't just using common spells, several of the abilities he used are listed as "Unique transcendentals." Currygom explained in the blog that there are "common" abilities that anyone with the right transcendental values + attributes can use, and unique transcendentals usable only by those individuals. Evidently, God Kubera is still able to use them. Also, evidently, he's still immortal (in the sense of long-living), since he lost his name a long time ago but is still running around. So, what does "losing his name" really mean for him?
• The main issue with it all is -why is it a big deal from the Sura point of view-? Gods are weak compared to Nastika. If one God gets replaced by another, it's simply not a big deal. So why does Leez have 5 species of Sura trying to kill her?
• Rao Leez named his daughter Kubera because he wanted her to become happy. I'm pretty sure "Lifetime employment as a Sura target" wasn't on his mind. Now, I do think Visnu is the one who made him name her that, but I think he was tricked. From the novel, we know that Visnu has a flawless reputation and that humans and Sura alike love him. But, he may have been the one to plot the destruction of Ian's village, and the blame got pushed onto Utpala.

Evidently there's a lot more going on than meets the eyes.

Edited by Mizura, 13 December 2012 - 01:49 AM.

[Boredoom]

Even if Kubera is "removed" from his position as a God. How would it affect his body? We know his name is a part of the God, but a God doesn't have a "material" body as the rest of the world has. More like bodys' made out of ...energy. (Look Agni after Gandharva cuts of his arm). Body amde out of energy shouldn't really age... So if he's removed from being a God (I'm at the moment 99.9999999% sure he's still in the position of a God) what'll really happen? Leez get's his position and he...gets a lifetimelong vacation .

[Kreiri]

There are still too many holes left though.
[..]
Evidently there's a lot more going on than meets the eyes.

Or it's all just sloppy writing.

[Akasha]

Actually ... we currently don´t even know if "Kubera is removed from his position as god", don´t we?

[Boredoom]

No, we don't.

Personally I'm holder of the theory that he's still a God.(

[Goobera]

The main issue with it all is -why is it a big deal from the Sura point of view-? Gods are weak compared to Nastika. If one God gets replaced by another, it's simply not a big deal. So why does Leez have 5 species of Sura trying to kill her?

That is a very good question I am already struggling all this time with answering why God Kubera lets the Sura believe they have to search for Leez, when he knows exactly where she is. And now the bigger question: why at all? Even if Leez would become the new God Kubera, and even if Ananta dying may be a reason for revenge, but that still is not such a big deal for the super mighty Nastika.. As we remember even the strongest Gods in their God form are the size of bugs for a Nastika. However, if Leez would become something more than just a Nature or Generational God, then the Sura would have a big problem. After all the Primeval Gods are stronger than anyone out there. And the title of the entire Webtoon points to something really big happening in the end: One last God? Will Leez become a sort of Primeval God, not just the new God Kubera, but inheriting Visnu's powers or something? Maybe after the death of Ananta some sort of imbalance dystopia was started that even Visnu cannot stop, especially since he is 'not of this world' anymore, and in the end only Leez will be left as the only God, with Primeval God powers? Maybe that is Visnu's big plot (or one of his big plots )?

[Eleean]

Actually ... we currently don´t even know if "Kubera is removed from his position as god", don´t we?

I think that Kubera managed to "break" the barrier only because he "did no longer have place in the world of the Gods" (In The power of the name, if my memories are right), he wasn't meant anymore to be in the god's realm.
And Sagara, after attacking the city, said that they didn't kill the person with the power of the name since His power was unchanged. But Kubera is still a God, or he wouldn't have the power he has, altough he doesn't hold anymore the status of a god, since now he has no name. The Kubera magic people cast is no more borrowing his power of god, but it is borrowing his essence, that is now apart from the name "Kubera" that holds power itself.
Gosh, it is so complicated I don't even know what I am writing here.

[Aerebes]

It is an inappropriate generalizarion to say that Gods are natural enemies of Suras. Take for instance the primeval gods.
Anyway, we can only make hypotesis on why killing Ananta was a mistake, it is yet to be revealed. But we know it was.

I'm sorry if i wasn't specific enough. As far as I could tell, the primeval gods and the 'gods' such as agni, vayu, etc. are two entirely different species, I refer to them as such and was careless in not indicating that. Furthermore, it is true that the series has said more than once that there is at least a very strong hatred between the Sura and the gods, to the point of most gods attempting to kill upper level sura on sight.

I may have just forgotten something from earlier in the series, but how do we know that was Ananta?

[tkl.ee]

Personally, I believe that God Kubera hasn't lost his name yet. But, yes he has lost the ability to keep the name Kubera because Leez will eventually take over the name Kubera. He will lose it but not yet, so he's still considered as Kubera as of this moment. Perhaps this passing down the power of names is not so black and white.. in that passing down the name takes time. and right now the story's in the overlapping zone where there are two persons with the name Kubera. One's power still gaining while the other? not sure.. perhaps his power will diminish soon, sadly. Or, hopefully he'll still have the power but just lost the title of a god.


I'm quite curious what will be God Kubera's new name.. so sad that he'll be nameless in the future. He better not become an antihero or a tragic hero.... )':

This is a bit off topic but still aligns with the topic: the power of names..

I'm also curious about Yuta's real name.. He can't say it because of the power of the names or that he's protecting it.. I can't believe we are over 100+ chapters and we still dont know much about this power of the names.. ughhhh. and to think that Leez will have to continue living because she has to protect the power of the name. power of the name... power of the nameee..

Her name is Ketergent. Stop calling her Kubera, Leez or Haias.

LOL! I love how this comment matches with the icon in a hilarious way.

[truepurple]

else everyone who was named Kubera would be the next candidate to take the place or inherit the name of the ‘god’ Kubera. I would like to believe that Primeval Gods are the only ones who have the last say on who has power as a ‘god’. I would like to believe even humans are not allowed to use the name willy-nilly.

... The comic made it very clear that names are important to supernatural beings, not human beings. I don't see why approval of a primeval god would change the fact that for humans, names don't work the same. Then again, their powers are unknown. Kubera/Leez is not fully human. I feel strongly in this. Maybe she is a demigod and because of her ancestry, not her name. Probably on her warrior father side.

And the fact that Unnamed either wants to kill her now or soon, or wants to protect her forever, that her life is his to decide as he put it, suggests that he is the one behind her being named Kubera, not Visnu. Others have shot down my other theories (and I haven't bothered to check if such shot down was legit or not) but even if I was wrong in other regards, this still fits. Do you seriously think Visnu would allow Unnamed to kill the person Visnu picked for the next Kubera, if that was the case? Unnamed decided who carries the name. Alternatively, someone else arranged for her to have the name Kubera, he is deciding whether she lives or dies because someone has to have the name, and if she dies, he will have to track down the new name owner and make rearrangements for his plans there. But I doubt it.

Don't forget, the supernatural beings are all hunting for Kubera/Leez as though she was a threat (any reason to doubt that she is their target?) Yutu mother also had the future vision of her battling one supernatural being after another. They just don't know anything about her, but her powers will probably mark her. So presuming they are hunting for Kubera/Leez, it would make sense that Unnamed is using her in a plan that is a threat to them. Which means he finds it useful for her to have the name/power of Kubera. Unless he plans to manipulate her into doing something he can not do himself (Leez is pretty strong willed, has other people around her with their own plans and strong wills, hard to control) and seriously, what can Leez do that Unnamed can not? Then he must depend on someone claiming the name of Kubera, for him to be able to tap into the power itself, I can not see any other possible explanation. If others do, please share.

Edited by truepurple, 14 December 2012 - 11:18 PM.

[Arkeus]

There are still too many holes left though.

• If Leez is to be the next God Kubera, then why is she still mortal? Evidently she can still be killed at this point, and even in the future (Agni's insight: "Why am I fighting for my life? For the responsibility of protecting this name.")
• God Kubera isn't just using common spells, several of the abilities he used are listed as "Unique transcendentals." Currygom explained in the blog that there are "common" abilities that anyone with the right transcendental values + attributes can use, and unique transcendentals usable only by those individuals. Evidently, God Kubera is still able to use them. Also, evidently, he's still immortal (in the sense of long-living), since he lost his name a long time ago but is still running around. So, what does "losing his name" really mean for him?
• The main issue with it all is -why is it a big deal from the Sura point of view-? Gods are weak compared to Nastika. If one God gets replaced by another, it's simply not a big deal. So why does Leez have 5 species of Sura trying to kill her?
• Rao Leez named his daughter Kubera because he wanted her to become happy. I'm pretty sure "Lifetime employment as a Sura target" wasn't on his mind. Now, I do think Visnu is the one who made him name her that, but I think he was tricked. From the novel, we know that Visnu has a flawless reputation and that humans and Sura alike love him. But, he may have been the one to plot the destruction of Ian's village, and the blame got pushed onto Utpala.

Evidently there's a lot more going on than meets the eyes.

I think this is a classic case of "Old Kubera's power wane, New Kubera's power rises".Basically, currently Leez has the name and it's changing her, but she still is not a god as such. However, she will still reincarnate if killed, at least unless Nameless Kubera doesn't recover the name then. This is why there is this whole thing about "i can choose if you die", as Leez will reincarnate unless Kubera steps in.

This probably won't be the case in the future, as Kubera made a point in many of their dialogues to tell Leeze that her Power, maturity and skill will all change and surpass his, but so far it is taking a while for Leeze to assume the mantle of Kubera. Which really makes sense.

[truepurple]

Again, "god" is a species, not a status obtained by a name. Gods are really effected by their names, not turned into gods because of their names. Nameless is a god, because that is what he started out as, and not because of the name.

And Kubura/Leez will not morph into a god. But might morph into the powers of that name. Whether fully human or not, that won't change. Do you guys think she is fully human or not? You guys think I might be right, that her ancestry is partially supernatural? You guys disagree and think the name is morphing a human into a god or something? What is your evidence of that?

[Arkeus]

Again, "god" is a species, not a status obtained by a name. Gods are really effected by their names, not turned into gods because of their names. Nameless is a god, because that is what he started out as, and not because of the name.

Why do you think 'God' is a species? After all, the explanations given on how those thigns work are that Nastika and Astika are the way htey are because of their names- and without their names, they wouldn't be Nastika and Astika.

[truepurple]

Yeah, but that is why I categorize them in a super category of supernaturals. Nastikas, Astika, Gods, etc all possibly being variations of the same base supernatural race. I bet Kubera Leez has some of that supernatural blood in her, or the name wouldn't matter. That is my theory anyway.

And the original explanation of gods and names, I thought I remember reading explanations, given by both Asha and Igni to be something like, 'unlike humans' names were important to gods (etc.). Not that they weren't gods (etc,) without their names, or that a human can morph into a god with the right name.

Edited by truepurple, 16 December 2012 - 04:27 AM.

[truepurple]

Also, look at the half (more/less) breeds that are in the story. There is no reason to think their power arrives from names, but from blood. From mixed relations bearing children. These mixed ones are great proof that there are races involved here. Not just beings that are human or something else, just because of a name.

Edited by truepurple, 16 December 2012 - 06:56 AM.

[Frozen Ice]

In chapter 31, Kubera said "What a disappointment. That the power of the name was wasted like this" after Leez hit him.

Doesn't that suggest her strength is due to the power of the name? Maybe blood is involved...but it seems like the name is the bigger factor here.

[Akasha]

I would suggest that the power of the Nastiaks name includes the "ability" to "create their species" to "further they cause" and "to protect themself" in the first place ... their name allows their children "to be Sura" instead of some animals/humans/whatever but since they lack the power of their parents name, they are, of course, lacking. It´s a supernatural factor and depending on how distand a Sura is from the Nastika that gave birth to his family line, their power dismisses significantly ... same but more so goes for the ones mixed with human ... who´s power dismisses (from a Sura point of view) incredible fast.

Edited by Akasha, 16 December 2012 - 11:48 AM.