70 replies to this topic

[Eleean]

But perhaps during N0, this power went out of control, either because someone exploited it, or it happened unintentionally. Now, as I said before, I always believed that there's more to the name Kubera than its original intended power, like it acquired some of Ananta's power or something else. If that's the case, if someone managed to find and exploit the Power of the Name in N0, this may have caused the Cataclysm, until the Name got transferred to Leez to get sealed again (or something like that). Visnu then separated the races into different realms, specifically isolate the human realm where the Name still remained, to prevent any of the more powerful races from controlling it again. This was the excuse on the surface, however, but in truth, he had things planned to break this chain, making Leez the last to ever bear the name Kubera.

Brilliant.
Also, we know that, among Gandharva, Maruna and Kubera, it was Kubera's original plan to kill the power of the name, Gandharva is helping him to open a gate to the sura world and Maruna needs to reunite with his siblings (killing the human with the power of the name for they cannot reunite if she exists, plus Kubera agreed to find his siblings once achieved his goal). Just what is Sagara doing there? Why is she after the power of name? As Maruna said, she has to gain something from it, and we know she is always after power, and that she is doing what she is to gain power for her clan. Sagara could be also looking for the power of the name to kill the human who bears it, unseal it again and, given that she knows how it works, find a way to use it. Why else having to bother looking after the power of the name and kill a human?

[Euodiachloris]

Brilliant.
Also, we know that, among Gandharva, Maruna and Kubera, it was Kubera's original plan to kill the power of the name, Gandharva is helping him to open a gate to the sura world and Maruna needs to reunite with his siblings (killing the human with the power of the name for they cannot reunite if she exists, plus Kubera agreed to find his siblings once achieved his goal). Just what is Sagara doing there? Why is she after the power of name? As Maruna said, she has to gain something from it, and we know she is always after power, and that she is doing what she is to gain power for her clan. Sagara could be also looking for the power of the name to kill the human who bears it, unseal it again and, given that she knows how it works, find a way to use it. Why else having to bother looking after the power of the name and kill a human?

And, like all Ananta Suras... she's Earth attribute, after all. So, any of those Nastikas would have a better chance of using it, most likely. Also: it'd be the closest thing to getting into Ananta's arms she could manage if there has been some cross-linkage with the interacting Names, whilst getting back at the one who killed him. Yeah: I'm seeing this.

But, Unnamed will know this about her. Or, I'm a sausage. So, it's a game of who can out-use whom.

Edited by Euodiachloris, 18 January 2013 - 06:26 PM.

[smthFishy]

However, I'll have a screaming fit if Asha or Leez are supposed to be a Sophia-cycle in all this Gnosticism, for all they are complimentary and contrasting foils/ shadows of each other and the strong hints that Leez will have to try the whole painful redemption bit for mistakes of the past as she makes her own way.

Sorry for the ignorant question, but would you explain what you mean by a Sophia-cycle? I have not heard of this term used much. Perhaps you mean Samsara, cycle of suffering? Regardless, based on the context, I think you're spot on in your insight between Asha and Leez. I try to respond to your insight below, but will use spoiler tags below lest I ruin fan expectations.

Spoiler

Asha Rashiro and Kubera Leez do form a foil, and indeed, a light and shadow pair.

Asha is a tragic figure. I suspect Asha's mother was given the name, and died because of it. I think Asha's ultimate concern is to destroy the cursed Name. In her weaker moments, she no doubt pondered over the question of killing the unsuspecting Leez. She might even justify it as a mercy kill, for she knows the tragedy that falls on the Name first-hand.

But here's the irony. In destroying Leez, Asha destroys her own soul. She has given up much of her humanity in her quest for revenge. She has become the character of her attributes: an indifferent cold heart (wind), a ferocious appetite for power ( lightning), and a will to eliminate any obstacle that stands in her path (destruction). She remarkably sees this in herself, but she accepts it anyway as part of her fate, to be born in sin. "My path was corrupt from the beginning. There was no place for innocence."

In meeting Leez, Asha saw a glimmer of light. In probably the most telling scene of the water tunnel, Asha leaves Leez briefly in anger, for eventually, she plans on destroying the Name, and no doubt its better for her if the Name is weaker. But upon hearing Leez trying to cast her first spell, she returns, with a facial expression that is a mix of shame, concern, regret, and possibly hope. It might be the first sign that she is wants to see Leez grow. If Asha can help Leez break the curse on Leez's Name, Asha would do for Leez what she could not have done for her mother: saving her. In doing so, Asha would find her salvation at last, turning from darkness to light.

If Asha is Ahab chasing an elusive whale down to the bitter depths of Hell, then the future Leez would probably be Job. Leez crying a river of tears on the plain of desolation is Job sitting on a donkey crying out to the heavens. It's no doubt the curse on her Name, an experiment to see how far the human spirit can be stretched before it cripples. It raises again the unanswered question of suffering without cause, of will against destiny, of hope against despair.

I fear that Leez will grow increasingly bitter and alienated. She might walk down the same path as Asha, trying to bid for more power, cutting down anyone who stands in her way. If Asha sees light in the innocent young Leez, Leez might succumb to the same darkness that has scarred Asha. If Leez falls into darkness, she would have repeated the same mistake that the God Kubera made, that which Kubera Rashiro probably made, and that which Asha is on the path of making. This inescapable fate is probably the true nature of the curse in the Name. You can almost hear Anantha sobbing in the background: poor girl, not again...

At this point, we should probably remind ourselves that Pandora's box contains hope. Kubera has strength and courage in it. It's also a love story. Recall that old adage about power of love overcoming love of power. Perhaps this is the truth that Currygom wants to say: in trying to gain power over all else, to become a god, mankind is bound for destruction. Mankind should give up this pursuit, even if its intent seems legitimate, for this is the Truth behind Asha's name. We would be all better off without "Gods". Hence, the title, One Last God.

Edited by tumbleweed, 21 January 2013 - 09:44 PM.

[Euodiachloris]

Sorry for the ignorant question, but would you explain what you mean by a Sophia-cycle? I have not heard of this term used much. Perhaps you mean Samsara, cycle of suffering? Regardless, based on the context, I think you're spot on in your insight between Asha and Leez. I try to respond to your insight below, but will use spoiler tags below lest I ruin fan expectations.

Um... no: the trials of Sophia (the change from ignorant innocence through knowelege-without-wisdom, false-wisdom, degredation and all the trials and tribulations the mistakes bring to the rise to redemption, renewed virtue and true wisdom) is the cycle I meant. Maybe "progression" would have been a better word. Can be found in true Gnosticism and Cristology with a heavy touch of the stuff in Churches based on Greek Othodoxy. It's similar to, but not the same as birth-life-death-rebirth, in that the gaining of spiritual wisdom is key to both.

But, with something like the Power of the Name, well... various points could well have been various people who had it. Starting with God!Kubera. Innocence-in-ignorance to Knowlege-Without-Wisdom: which led to his downfall and the pain the Name has had to go through since, with him watching and being affected by it, no doubt. Bet he's been getting Wiser.

And. Leez is the picture of Innocence-in-ignorance at the start, herself. As Asha probably was, too.

And, I enjoyed what was in the spoiler. Quite a lot. We'll have to read and see, won't we?

Edited by Euodiachloris, 18 January 2013 - 09:44 PM.

[smthFishy]

Euo, you know your stuff! I can't resist asking another technical question - but what do you mean by true Gnosticism. The classical Gnosticism that I know of is a dualism that is a battle of Aeons: spiritual and intellectual light against material darkness and illusion, Sophia against Demiurge, and later Gnosticism becomes combined with psychology, like Jungian types.

While typing this out, I just realized that eboth Asha and Leez fit Victim archetype : saboteur and child. Is Currygom a Gnostic? Maybe she just doesn't realize how good she is and uses them anyway...

Edited by tumbleweed, 21 January 2013 - 09:03 PM.

[Kaiein]

I'm sure there are psychology classes available over there in Korea. The mangas/manhwas/webtoons that I really like are those like Kubera, which involve real-life psychology rather than the dreamy crud that people often like. I.e. a man with a horrible childhood ends up being normal like everyone else (though he was abused and neglected and yadda yadda yadda). Having just taken a psychology course, I appreciate those authors who add that sense of realism to their works. There's a lot of Jung and Freud floating around in Kubera. Even if she hasn't taken any psychology classes, a good author will at least know, without all the definitive terms, what the real issue with their characters are, even if they only have seen examples from their surroundings.

Hence why there's a Victim card that Claude Yui shows.

[Euodiachloris]

Euo, you know your stuff! I can't resist asking another technical question - but what do you mean by true Gnosticism. The classical Gnosticism that I know of is a dualism that is a battle of Aeons: spiritual and intellectual light against material darkness and illusion, Sophia against Demiurge, and later Gnosticism becomes combined with psychology, like Jungian types.

I've looked into several forms of Gnostic belief over the years. <shrugs> Including the strain that influenced the Essenes responsible for the Dead Sea Scrolls (and, probably, a certain guy by the name of Joshua bar Joseph). And, this interest bit me even before I covered Jung and his work on archetypes and the collective subconscious. Um... I've also nibbled at Zoroastrianism... which has a lot of cross-over with both Gnosticism and Hinduism, as well. And Manichaeism, as well... obviously.

When I'm interested in something, I read. And, the Near East has interested me for donkey's yonks. <shrugs>

While typing this out, I just realized that eboth Asha and Leez fit Victim archetype : saboteur and child. Is Currygom a Gnostic? Maybe she just doesn't realize how good she is and uses them anyway...

Not only that: they're both victim and victor caught up together. Leez might be able to break out of that (possibly with Yuta's help, I hope), but Asha is well and truly caught in the cycle.

[Kaiein]

Maybe "one last God Kubera" doesn't mean, as I have always though, "One last God: Kubera", "Kubera, the last among the Gods", but "one last 'God Kubera'", "the last 'God Kubera'".

Also, I wonder if this may not be the last Universe that Visnu creates? Going along with being the last God Kubera, but perhaps this is the last Universe Visnu can/is willing to make? What if this was the "last chance" per se, and he is waiting/hoping to see the turnout. Maybe he's throwing in all this extra hullaballoo in order to see what people do and/or how long this Universe is able to last. Since Ananta's death apparently messed this up, Visnu's now seeing whether or not people (all inclusive to humans, Gods, and Sura) are able to sort out problems without deserving his help and/or destroying the whole Universe in their fight?

Or perhaps Visnu, when he creates a new Universe (if/when this one disappears), retires the name Kubera and somehow chooses a new one to replace it. However, how would he be able to do that? Then again, he's a Primeval God.

Sorry this is old, but I had to put it out there (my mind was driving itself crazy). And I just realized that this makes Visnu seem like a villain. But whatever, I agree with Kasak on this one: Visnu is a senile, old man.

Edited by Kaiein, 22 January 2013 - 04:55 AM.

[smthFishy]

Including the strain that influenced the Essenes responsible for the Dead Sea Scrolls (and, probably, a certain guy by the name of Joshua bar Joseph).

You don't mean the Nazareen? He was influenced by the Gnostics? I thought Gnosticism only made it into the Gospels through John, but that was toward the end of the first century. He did associate himself with John the Baptist, whom some claimed was an Essenes though it's controversial... I do recall that the Dead Sea Scrolls mentioned the end-time war and ultimate victory by the Sons of Light, which is somewhat Manichean. Though, I don't think the Essenes tied salvation to a knowledge-based model, but I haven't done my homework. Just curious, did you do independent research, or did you go to classes? Did you have professors that guided you? Just to let you know, I was a computer science major, so I feel pretty good hanging in there thus far.

Not only that: they're both victim and victor caught up together. Leez might be able to break out of that (possibly with Yuta's help, I hope), but Asha is well and truly caught in the cycle.

Is it me or is Kubera getting so much darker psychologically? Asha is seriously disturbed. One can imagine Asha's therapy sessions as case studies in clinical textbooks. Asha: Doc, I've been feeling depressed lately. Can't sleep. Been having that recurring dream, you know, that one that replays my childhood trauma? Doc: Asha, did you tried to kill your roomate again? Asha: ...
Currygom is no doubt brilliant, but she scares me sometimes.

I'm sure there are psychology classes available over there in Korea. The mangas/manhwas/webtoons that I really like are those like Kubera, which involve real-life psychology rather than the dreamy crud that people often like. I.e. a man with a horrible childhood ends up being normal like everyone else (though he was abused and neglected and yadda yadda yadda).

You're not talking about the novel-that-shall-not-be-named, where kids shout obsenenities to chase off spirits, with that infamous "Waiting for daddy!" spell? Honestly, that spell hurts feelings... monsters have parents too (well, unless they're Nastikas).
What we desperately need to do is to Occupy Hollywood. I have always thought that Sony classic pictures actually churned out some decent movies. Then Howard Stringer took over. And we get Spiderman. Seriously? They'll have to PAY me to watch those things. Heroes are caricatures; story lines packaged. The hero journeys not through Heart of Darkness but sits through a Sorting Hat ceremony. He doesn't fall (maybe scraps a knee); his redemption is guaranteed (He's the main character, after all). Faulkner warned about such death traps in his Nobel speech- stories of struggles without victories, of battles without scars, shedding no tears, addressing no universal concerns.
It confounds me why a poor underpaid artist in Korea can come up with good works where those in the richest country could not. Are we seeing the "Twilight" of our literary legacy? Or did I just missed out?

Edited by tumbleweed, 22 January 2013 - 06:53 AM.

[Kaiein]

We have different standards of enjoyment here in the US than Korea. >shrug< Give me Korean webtoons any day over American sitcoms, don't get me wrong. Part of America's issue with movies/storiesis that we start at horrendous things and expect them to just come out peachy in the end (this doesn't work in real life). -.- I just took a college-level psychology class, and I can see some issues with a few characters i.e. Sagara. No wonder she has a complex with being a "queen"; she's always wanted power and when she finally gets it her clan unleases their fury on her, calling her a slut and saying she's better off dead than being a King and yadda yadda yadda. I guess what I'm saying is that Kubera doesn't have the over-used plot line like American movies tend to, but it can still have some of those psychological concepts. Also, I guess it depends on how psychology was taught to an individual. It's not an always-there thing, but some of the characters' characteristics just scream out certain things to me, anyway. Like with Claude Yui's cards, those seem like an overall generality/stereotype/ideal/whatever word it is that I can't think of right now. I'm not meaning the whole story revolves around Freudian or Jungian ideas, but it has some aspects to them.

The only thing worse than Twilight is the Fifty Shades of Grey series. End of that discussion and back to Kubera.

That's part of the reason why Kubera's so interesting for me. I like the psychological aspect, and wondering what a character will do in response to something. Good thing we haven't really seen any schizophrenics in here (sorry, it's a class joke). I haven't read anything on Gnosticism or any of the others Euo mentioned, so I'll refrain from commenting on something I have absolutely no idea about.

[smthFishy]

<retract>

Edited by Old Man River, 28 January 2014 - 03:15 AM.