22 replies to this topic

[Zyst]

Hey guys, so I just started reading the light novel and... well, I finished Volume 3 and I think I made a program on java that simulated a number of increases you decide and basically there's no logical way for the Red Dragon to beat the White Dragon on a 1 on 1, here's the program for those curious:

import java.util.Scanner;
public class albion {
	public static void main(String[] args) {
Scanner sc = new Scanner(System.in);
		int red = 1;
		int white = 1;
  int in = 1;
  int count = 1;

System.out.print("Please input the number of repetitions: ");
  in = sc.nextInt();

while(count < in){
  red = red*2;
  white = (red/2) + white;
  red = red/2;

System.out.printf(count + " itteration the power of red is: " + red + " and the power of white is " + white );
System.out.println();

  count++;

  }
}

}

Sorry, the formatting got messed up a bit, but anyway! I simulated as if they both had the same 'starting power' (which is false, but just for the sake of this and that can also be easily adjusted by changing "red" and "white" integers on the program.

Anyhow, a sample print:

~/Desktop$ java albion
Please input the number of repetitions: 10
1 itteration the power of red is: 1 and the power of white is 2
2 itteration the power of red is: 1 and the power of white is 3
3 itteration the power of red is: 1 and the power of white is 4
4 itteration the power of red is: 1 and the power of white is 5
5 itteration the power of red is: 1 and the power of white is 6
6 itteration the power of red is: 1 and the power of white is 7
7 itteration the power of red is: 1 and the power of white is 8
8 itteration the power of red is: 1 and the power of white is 9
9 itteration the power of red is: 1 and the power of white is 10

Even in the case which I find it 'plausible' for a few iterations for the red dragon to beat the white dragon it'd have to be with this:

He'd start pre-boosted and beat him up before he can use his power, that would be extremely hard because as we've seen he's no pushover but meh.

I'm sure that considering all the volumes out there either one of them has already won, but at least mathematically the Red Dragon shouldn't be able to beat the white dragon.

Also consider that the red dragon boosts ridiculously, like to "10000" to say a number, and lets say the white dragon user only has a power of 400~, as soon as the battle starts he halves that and steals it making the white dragon power 5400 and the red dragon 5000, the next increase of the red dragon WOULD push him back to 10,000 but the white dragon would then steal another 5000 making him 10400 and keeping the red dragon at 5000 at which point all hope is lost.

Sorry for wasting your time with this, I was just a bit bored. Back to reading!

[jasser]

thats not the way it works (kinda) you will find out in vol 4... the key point you take from vol 3 is

Spoiler

god is dead.. so it will effect the sacred gear system greatly

edit:<Zoom Zoom Iyaaan. Zoom Zoom Iyaaan>

Edited by jasser, 29 September 2012 - 10:45 AM.

[Iamanoob]

Keep reading.
I'm not gonna spoil anything for you.

[BlitzRazor]

you definitely should read up further on the light novels

[soranokira]

indeed, this whole LN simply revolves around <zoom zoom iyaan! zoom zoom iyaan!>
it took a few volumes for me to understand that though.
ophis is kawaii~<3

[Zyst]

After reading up to where the novel is I see now, lol...

Anyhow! The huge difference here is that

Spoiler

For example, when White Dragon fights the Shinigami and destroys him in a matter of seconds while Red is going to fight the ultimate longinus

From what I've seen White Dragon power is incredibly suited for duels, to the point where he is likely invincible in a 1v1, of course there are going to be even more loopholes around that but that's my conclusion.

White doesn't even need to go into Balance Breaker to defeat anyone, because his normal boosted gear steals half the power and adds to his initial value, so let's say you are now amazingly strong and your power is over 9000! Lets say white guy without anything is sitting at a comfortable 3000 (undershooting it but whatever) the first iteration will always steal half and add to yours, so while you lower to 4500 he becomes 7500, even if his power is way lower he should always (Theoretically in a battle of pure numbers) win.

However Red is better suited at fighting many people because his increments are completely independent of outside sources unlike White. But still, there's a lot of things around this, like the fact that

Spoiler

To a degree Red can use Division too because he now has some of it inside him

or that

Spoiler

Red can always use his Transfer trick to overload white

Still, love the series and interested in seeing how it develops! Also I agree, Ophis is super moe haha.

[Kireas]

I am assuming that you have read the entire novel up to the latest, including the special Ophis chapter. If not then it's best you don't open the spoiler.

Spoiler

So far, the novel has been hinting that despite Ise's growth, he is still weaker than Vali since Vali has been growing as well, at the same pace if not faster, which makes sense since if two beings with different base stats, one being superior to the other, had the same amount of growth, the superior one would remain superior and the inferior one, inferior. But, if you consider other factors, then things may turn out differently.

Ise's abilities/skills/equipment up to latest in chronological order.
Normal mortal
Half Devil w/ human base
Boosted Gear Initial form
Boost (10 seconds interval)
Promotion
Boosted Gear upgrade (vs Reynael/Reynare)
No proficency in magic or close combat
Dragon shot
Dress Break
Gift/Transfer
Training to master the gear through random tests without any proper planning
Imperfect Balance Breaker
Right dragon arm
Simultaneous Boosting
Limited Dividing
Ascalon
Incomplete Juggernaut Drive
Longinus Smasher
Simulatneous Boosting/Dividing
Complete Balance Breaker
Reading mind of boobs (Forgot the name...can't believe I typed that)
Chichigami's protection (That was a one off joke but included for completeness)
Fire breathing (Underground train tunnel in Kyoto/Heroes Faction against shadow sacred gear user)
Some proficency in close combat and magic though very little for the latter
Rule Breaker Forms
Dragon base body
Unpredictable(growth/personality), cautious, low capacity thinker
Very good imaging ability even outside of situations that is not related to his hormones.

Well, that's quite a hefty list I'm remembering off the top of my head and it has been a few months since I last touched the novel so you'll have to pardon me if I left out anything.

Now for Vali.
Guided and trained by Azazel, who has lots of knowledge and information on Sacred Gears
Complete Balance Breaker
Supposed 'complete' Divine Dividing form
Successor of original Lucifer blood
Genius
High proficency in magic
High proficency in close combat
Melee ranged divide
Half Dimension (It was the AoE divide if I'm not wrong)
Targeted divide
Mastered Juggernaut Drive
Growing at a very fast pace
Arrogant, reckless, tactician

That's all I can remember since Vali has more or less been stated as 'A very strong being that is growing at a frighteningly fast pace' despite the growths of the main cast.

Now that we've more or less threw everything out, we can more or less 'decide' who may win should they face off.

From the top, Ise does not have the experience in fighting that Vali had mainly due to their lifespan difference. True, most of his fights had always been against people stronger than him, but it was all more or less against his will. Everytime that he is thrown into a fight, he participates half heartedly until something spurs him on. This mindset will subconsciously hinder his growth to some extent. Also, unlike Vali, who had been training under Azazel's guidance, Ise has been getting strong through training directed by Rias, who herself is also inexperienced and not that knowledgable in Sacred Gears, compared to Azazel. Also, now that he has a dragon base body, he is now subsceptible to things dragon and devils are weak against and unlike Vali who can use his immense magical energy and sacred gear to negate and reduce some of the damage caused by their banes, Ise will not survive. Ref. Vol 11. Vali was able to hold on against Samael's poison but Ise just got OHKOed and that was only when he was part dragon, now that he is half dragon, the poison would be roughly twice as effective.

Ise's main 'selling point' is that his growth is unpredictable, he does things that would stun you shitless in the middle of a fight. He also suffers from the sickness that all main characters have in that the peak of their emotions(usually anger) can somehow be coverted to strength of will, or just pure strength, and use it to defeat someone who is way stronger than them. Furthermore, he also has the magical power of friendship, which will somehow draw out powers hidden deep within, something Vali, in his pursuit of strength, will never be able to do, ironic, isn't it. Also, his rule breaking forms all have their strengths and weaknesses which allows him to become a much more balanced fighter that can adjust to situations. However, the transformation between forms have a minor delay which will leave an opening, one which Vali will defintely take.

Vali on the other hand is a battle maniac who has had plenty of experience. He gladly throws himself into battle against anyone, anywhere. No opponent is too weak for him to fight and no opponent is too strong for him to defeat (With some exceptions anyway). A pure seeker of strength who will take every opporunity he has to become stronger than he was a second ago, and if there isn't any, he'll make it so that there is. Being a devil that inherited the original Lucifer blood blessed him with high magical power, one which he has high mastery in and also being a natural genius. He is also guided by Azazel, who knows how to bring out the strengths in someone. Aside from being strong in a fight, he is also able to fully utilize his abilities, such as dividing projectiles into nothing before they hit him, or to something minor in the event that it will hit him, and then proceed to blow off the already weakened projectile with his immense magical power.

Sadly, not everything is sunshine for Vali as has strength has made him arrogant. Not only that but he is also reckless and a pretty passionate person deep down as well. Also, he is quite reliant on brute force, blasting away anything that he cannot outmaneuver or just taking damage which he takes he can negate with his magical power. Despite being a decent tactician, his arrogance, passion and recklessness will ultimately cause him to err in his judgement, giving Ise an opening which he will defintely not miss out on. Unlike Ise, who found a way around Juggernaut Drive, Vali chose to remain and use the Juggernaut Drive. Despite all his strengths, he is unable to maintain it for long and can only use it without any repurcussions assuming that he has magical energy to 'feed' the Drive, whreas Ise can use his Rule Breaker forms for a long period in time.

To summarise. In the event of 1 v 1, it comes down to terrain and who gets to their 'strongest state' first. If Vali is able to get high enough into the air while being out of range for Ise to get a decent aim at him, he can easily use Half Dimension and then blast him away with magic. Even if Ise goes rook to absorb the blasts, he will wear out sooner or later, or even worse, his Balance Breaker will give way, all of these before Vali's mana pool runs dry. Even more troublesome is the fact that his Balance Breaker time is consumed greatly every time he changes forms and uses boost whreas Vali does not suffer as much from using his abilities in Balance Breaker. If Vali drags this into an endurance match, which is Ise's specialty, he, Ise, will ironically be at a disadvantage.

However, because of Vali's arrogance and Ise's unpredictable factor, things may turn in favour of Ise right before the decisive moment. If he times it right and uses the Divide + Boost combination in sucession, he can overpower and defeat Vali then and there since whatever Vali was going to use to finish him, will fail and if he is unlucky, blow up/go berserk on him.

I know that I have not touched on things that I have listed out but some of them are really self explanatory, Ascalon for example. Ise has barely used it and everytime he did, it wound up in someone else's hand at the end of the battle, mainly Kiba or Xenovia. That and it's about 12.30 am by the time I finished this post so yeah.

Kind of lengthy but there you go, though all of what I have said is just purely my opinion, not meant to be forced onto anyone

Edited by Kireas, 20 December 2012 - 04:28 PM.

[Zyst]

I am assuming that you have read the entire novel up to the latest, including the special Ophis chapter. If not then it's best you don't open the spoiler.

Spoiler

So far, the novel has been hinting that despite Ise's growth, he is still weaker than Vali since Vali has been growing as well, at the same pace if not faster, which makes sense since if two beings with different base stats, one being superior to the other, had the same amount of growth, the superior one would remain superior and the inferior one, inferior. But, if you consider other factors, then things may turn out differently.

Ise's abilities/skills/equipment up to latest in chronological order.
Normal mortal
Half Devil w/ human base
Boosted Gear Initial form
Boost (10 seconds interval)
Promotion
Boosted Gear upgrade (vs Reynael/Reynare)
No proficency in magic or close combat
Dragon shot
Dress Break
Gift/Transfer
Training to master the gear through random tests without any proper planning
Imperfect Balance Breaker
Right dragon arm
Simultaneous Boosting
Limited Dividing
Ascalon
Incomplete Juggernaut Drive
Longinus Smasher
Simulatneous Boosting/Dividing
Complete Balance Breaker
Reading mind of boobs (Forgot the name...can't believe I typed that)
Chichigami's protection (That was a one off joke but included for completeness)
Fire breathing (Underground train tunnel in Kyoto/Heroes Faction against shadow sacred gear user)
Some proficency in close combat and magic though very little for the latter
Rule Breaker Forms
Dragon base body
Unpredictable(growth/personality), cautious, low capacity thinker
Very good imaging ability even outside of situations that is not related to his hormones.

Well, that's quite a hefty list I'm remembering off the top of my head and it has been a few months since I last touched the novel so you'll have to pardon me if I left out anything.

Now for Vali.
Guided and trained by Azazel, who has lots of knowledge and information on Sacred Gears
Complete Balance Breaker
Supposed 'complete' Divine Dividing form
Successor of original Lucifer blood
Genius
High proficency in magic
High proficency in close combat
Melee ranged divide
Half Dimension (It was the AoE divide if I'm not wrong)
Targeted divide
Mastered Juggernaut Drive
Growing at a very fast pace
Arrogant, reckless, tactician

That's all I can remember since Vali has more or less been stated as 'A very strong being that is growing at a frighteningly fast pace' despite the growths of the main cast.

Now that we've more or less threw everything out, we can more or less 'decide' who may win should they face off.

From the top, Ise does not have the experience in fighting that Vali had mainly due to their lifespan difference. True, most of his fights had always been against people stronger than him, but it was all more or less against his will. Everytime that he is thrown into a fight, he participates half heartedly until something spurs him on. This mindset will subconsciously hinder his growth to some extent. Also, unlike Vali, who had been training under Azazel's guidance, Ise has been getting strong through training directed by Rias, who herself is also inexperienced and not that knowledgable in Sacred Gears, compared to Azazel. Also, now that he has a dragon base body, he is now subsceptible to things dragon and devils are weak against and unlike Vali who can use his immense magical energy and sacred gear to negate and reduce some of the damage caused by their banes, Ise will not survive. Ref. Vol 11. Vali was able to hold on against Samael's poison but Ise just got OHKOed and that was only when he was part dragon, now that he is half dragon, the poison would be roughly twice as effective.

Ise's main 'selling point' is that his growth is unpredictable, he does things that would stun you shitless in the middle of a fight. He also suffers from the sickness that all main characters have in that the peak of their emotions(usually anger) can somehow be coverted to strength of will, or just pure strength, and use it to defeat someone who is way stronger than them. Furthermore, he also has the magical power of friendship, which will somehow draw out powers hidden deep within, something Vali, in his pursuit of strength, will never be able to do, ironic, isn't it. Also, his rule breaking forms all have their strengths and weaknesses which allows him to become a much more balanced fighter that can adjust to situations. However, the transformation between forms have a minor delay which will leave an opening, one which Vali will defintely take.

Vali on the other hand is a battle maniac who has had plenty of experience. He gladly throws himself into battle against anyone, anywhere. No opponent is too weak for him to fight and no opponent is too strong for him to defeat (With some exceptions anyway). A pure seeker of strength who will take every opporunity he has to become stronger than he was a second ago, and if there isn't any, he'll make it so that there is. Being a devil that inherited the original Lucifer blood blessed him with high magical power, one which he has high mastery in and also being a natural genius. He is also guided by Azazel, who knows how to bring out the strengths in someone. Aside from being strong in a fight, he is also able to fully utilize his abilities, such as dividing projectiles into nothing before they hit him, or to something minor in the event that it will hit him, and then proceed to blow off the already weakened projectile with his immense magical power.

Sadly, not everything is sunshine for Vali as has strength has made him arrogant. Not only that but he is also reckless and a pretty passionate person deep down as well. Also, he is quite reliant on brute force, blasting away anything that he cannot outmaneuver or just taking damage which he takes he can negate with his magical power. Despite being a decent tactician, his arrogance, passion and recklessness will ultimately cause him to err in his judgement, giving Ise an opening which he will defintely not miss out on. Unlike Ise, who found a way around Juggernaut Drive, Vali chose to remain and use the Juggernaut Drive. Despite all his strengths, he is unable to maintain it for long and can only use it without any repurcussions assuming that he has magical energy to 'feed' the Drive, whreas Ise can use his Rule Breaker forms for a long period in time.

To summarise. In the event of 1 v 1, it comes down to terrain and who gets to their 'strongest state' first. If Vali is able to get high enough into the air while being out of range for Ise to get a decent aim at him, he can easily use Half Dimension and then blast him away with magic. Even if Ise goes rook to absorb the blasts, he will wear out sooner or later, or even worse, his Balance Breaker will give way, all of these before Vali's mana pool runs dry. Even more troublesome is the fact that his Balance Breaker time is consumed greatly every time he changes forms and uses boost whreas Vali does not suffer as much from using his abilities in Balance Breaker. If Vali drags this into an endurance match, which is Ise's specialty, he, Ise, will ironically be at a disadvantage.

However, because of Vali's arrogance and Ise's unpredictable factor, things may turn in favour of Ise right before the decisive moment. If he times it right and uses the Divide + Boost combination in sucession, he can overpower and defeat Vali then and there since whatever Vali was going to use to finish him, will fail and if he is unlucky, blow up/go berserk on him.

I know that I have not touched on things that I have listed out but some of them are really self explanatory, Ascalon for example. Ise has barely used it and everytime he did, it wound up in someone else's hand at the end of the battle, mainly Kiba or Xenovia. That and it's about 12.30 am by the time I finished this post so yeah.

Kind of lengthy but there you go, though all of what I have said is just purely my opinion, not meant to be forced onto anyone

I am happily up-to-date including Ophis, anyhow there's just a whole plot hole you might be missing here in your opinion.

Spoiler

That is the fight against the boss Death God that Vali had. He was obviously an overwhelming opponent but Vali absolutely destroyed him in seconds flat by dividing him into nothingness and blasting him away. The only way I see this going Ise way is if Vali in his arrogance decides to let Ise powers grow during the battle to a point where Ise manages to 0HKO him or leave him in such a state that he can't use his half ability anymore. That's completely possible and a serious fight between Ise and Vali at this point is just highly unlikely (unless somehow there's no stronger opponents left in the world for Vali, then he might take out Ise and kill himself out of boredom.

Still this is kind of a moot point since the author can in the end do whatever he wants, logical or not. Ise could also overcharge him again or something. There's just so many options.

Anyhow still love reading the LN! So much good stuff.

Edited by Zyst, 14 January 2013 - 01:03 PM.

[MrAnarchist]

There's something that's clearly obvious here: the theme of good (white) triumphs over evil (red)
It may be that I'm biased and that it's not that way in the LN (I haven't gotten that far unfortunately, but I'm catching up), but from what you guys say, it's come clear to me that the constant, indefinite theme of the Holy defeating the Unholy is present. Not that there's anything wrong with it, but I'm just saying there's no point in figuring out who will win if that theme is dictating the two dragons

[Gene Eric Pseudonym]

There's something that's clearly obvious here: the theme of good (white) triumphs over evil (red)

What coloured hair does the main heroine have? What colour is the main character's boosted gear? Just those two should tell you what you need to know about the "good (white) triumphs over evil (red)" theory.

BTW, the full name of the owner of the "White" Dragon Boosted Gear is:

Spoiler

​Vali Lucifer

It may be that I'm biased and that it's not that way in the LN (I haven't gotten that far unfortunately, but I'm catching up), but from what you guys say, it's come clear to me that the constant, indefinite theme of the Holy defeating the Unholy is present. Not that there's anything wrong with it, but I'm just saying there's no point in figuring out who will win if that theme is dictating the two dragons

"Good" triumphs over "Evil". Yes.

"Holy" triumphs over "Unholy". Most certainly, unequivocally, absolutely not.

[Beelz]

Spoiler

I think there is something else to add... now that Issei became a humaniod dragon he should be able to further develope in different ways and his already unpredictable growth should become more unpredictable... Also Vali's dividing ability can be overloaded with power... if i remembered correctly.

Also the "starting point" for Issei means that that Vali had a head start on Issei... If anything Issei's a bigger genius(albeit a idiotic genius) for being able to acheive so much even as somebody who compaired to vali is stil very much new to being a devil aswell as a possessor of a sacred gear.

Edited by Beelz, 11 May 2013 - 12:22 AM.

[Zyst]

I think there is something else to add... now that Issei became a humaniod dragon he should be able to further develope in different ways and his already unpredictable growth should become more unpredictable...

Please put that in spoiler tags, while this is obviously not spoiler free by any means lets keep it as free of it as possible.

[Kireas]

I am happily up-to-date including Ophis, anyhow there's just a whole plot hole you might be missing here in your opinion.

Spoiler

That is the fight against the boss Death God that Vali had. He was obviously an overwhelming opponent but Vali absolutely destroyed him in seconds flat by dividing him into nothingness and blasting him away. The only way I see this going Ise way is if Vali in his arrogance decides to let Ise powers grow during the battle to a point where Ise manages to 0HKO him or leave him in such a state that he can't use his half ability anymore. That's completely possible and a serious fight between Ise and Vali at this point is just highly unlikely (unless somehow there's no stronger opponents left in the world for Vali, then he might take out Ise and kill himself out of boredom. Still this is kind of a moot point since the author can in the end do whatever he wants, logical or not. Ise could also overcharge him again or something. There's just so many options. Anyhow still love reading the LN! So much good stuff.

Spoiler

Oh yeah I forgot about that. True that. However, one main difference between Ise and Vali is that, Ise has been equipped as a character who can fight differently based on circumstances, whether the actual person can actually make full use of what he has is another matter of course. While he is still weak in the magic department, he has been shown to be fully capabable of handing power based combat, speed based combat and skill based combat, outshining Koneko and possibly Xenovia in power and matching up to Kiba in speed while giving him a run for his money in skill. I'm not going to talk about magic since he still can't use magic to save his life, though I suspect that might change in vol 14 since vol 14 is about magicians and vampires, from vol 13's author's notes anyway.

Vali, as strong as he is, only has one general pattern for fighting, and his personal philosophy does not help, that is to dominate everything through sheer force. Also, his divide is not as nifty as it sounds. He has to 'aim' it, if you will and I highly doubt that he can keep up with Ise's Rule breaker Knight speed and in the event that he does, Ise can boost back the divided power. Not to mention the fact that there is a chance of Ise going for the opening while Vali tries to aim the divide at him. When I say 'opening' I'm talking in spans of mili and micro seconds, yes, a small amount of time does make this much a difference. While Vali does get a +1 and Ise is returning to his former state pre-divide, the point here is that Ise reduces the 'bonus' of divide.

The way Vali fought can be broken down into 2 steps.
1) Divide the f- outta the opponent, making them very weak and him stronger
2) Overpower enemy

For Ise's case, (1) is out of the question because of the boost and in the event that he does manage to get a chance to weaken Ise down, either one or both of them would be in a very, very exhausted state to render any gain or loss of strength, useless. Meaning, the only path left to him is to fight Ise head on.

I can't wait for vol 14. my local bookstore has them already but they haven't prepped it for sale yet. The wait is killing me >.<

[Zyst]

Spoiler

Oh yeah I forgot about that. True that. However, one main difference between Ise and Vali is that, Ise has been equipped as a character who can fight differently based on circumstances, whether the actual person can actually make full use of what he has is another matter of course. While he is still weak in the magic department, he has been shown to be fully capabable of handing power based combat, speed based combat and skill based combat, outshining Koneko and possibly Xenovia in power and matching up to Kiba in speed while giving him a run for his money in skill. I'm not going to talk about magic since he still can't use magic to save his life, though I suspect that might change in vol 14 since vol 14 is about magicians and vampires, from vol 13's author's notes anyway.

Vali, as strong as he is, only has one general pattern for fighting, and his personal philosophy does not help, that is to dominate everything through sheer force. Also, his divide is not as nifty as it sounds. He has to 'aim' it, if you will and I highly doubt that he can keep up with Ise's Rule breaker Knight speed and in the event that he does, Ise can boost back the divided power. Not to mention the fact that there is a chance of Ise going for the opening while Vali tries to aim the divide at him. When I say 'opening' I'm talking in spans of mili and micro seconds, yes, a small amount of time does make this much a difference. While Vali does get a +1 and Ise is returning to his former state pre-divide, the point here is that Ise reduces the 'bonus' of divide.

The way Vali fought can be broken down into 2 steps.
1) Divide the f- outta the opponent, making them very weak and him stronger
2) Overpower enemy

For Ise's case, (1) is out of the question because of the boost and in the event that he does manage to get a chance to weaken Ise down, either one or both of them would be in a very, very exhausted state to render any gain or loss of strength, useless. Meaning, the only path left to him is to fight Ise head on.

I can't wait for vol 14. my local bookstore has them already but they haven't prepped it for sale yet. The wait is killing me >.<

Do enjoy that when you get it man! You make a very good point and its mostly wait and see. I think we believe Ise has more versatility fight-wise its because the LN focuses around him and not Vali, if we saw stuff from Vali standpoint maybe we'd have a drastically different opinion.

Spoiler

If anything Vali should have more openings in versatility because besides being obscenely strong he is also a master magic user.

[Kireas]

I will. Or rather, I did.

Spoiler

To be honest I'm a bit disappointed with how they portray magic in the series and this is with no reference to volume 14. Apparently, magic, or rather, magic users, are portrayed as the long range type that can't fend for themselves and can only hurl fireballs at people. I may be wrong but I have not read any part where they explicitly stated that someone incorporated magic into their slugging match with the other party. So far, magic users have only left themselves open for attack if the target is incacipated or if the opponent is the same type as them. Even Vali only used magic when the target was unable to move. Also, another point to note is that Vali has not fought opponents who are equal or stronger than him without using divide, and in the instance that he did not use it, his ass got kicked. So Vali's true strength is actually debatable and he may be much weaker than he appears to be.

I mean, of course, it would be pointless of him to fight without using divide but my point is this, how far can he go without using divide? Ise has lots of other ways to fight without using boost. But what about Vali? Big devil with a divider, take that away, what is he? (Cookies if you get the reference).
Note that I am saying how far can he go without using divide and not without his sacred gear.

Edited by Kireas, 02 February 2013 - 03:49 PM.

[NinjaWolf32]

If I'm spoiling for someone I'm sorry but not really.

I can't wait to see Issie go berserk in the manga or anime probably won't be in the anime though.

[Eldau]

As I was reading all this, I was thinking about the power of the two dragons.

Spoiler

When Ise is fighting in his Balance Breaker state, every single boost he performs is lowering his stamina, but he seem to do it continuously against his opponents when he is performing an attack. Adding that unto what Cao Cao said in vol. 11 about how the aura of the dragons are diverting in the body when they are preparing to strike and thus easier to see through, one can think that there is a loss of power when moving the aura around in the bodies.

Then going back to Ise losing stamina when using Boost, the same could very well be applied to Vali having to use parts of his own stamina every time he is dividing the power of an opponent.

The power that the two are using comes from their sacred gears primarily and can therefore be said to be "temporary", so what about the power Vali attains from using divide. That power is completely without root an may very well be lost faster than his own power as it can not be replenished. So if thinking Vali has a base power of 10000, it may very well conume 50 or so to use divide, albeit the power he gains is far over his loss so it is very hard to see, the power Vali gains is a "one off" compared to what he sacrificed. It may also be that Vali needs to use more of his own stamina if the power he divides is higher.

 

Also in regards to their Juggernaut drives. when Vali used his improved version in vol. 12, he was likely still suffering from the after effects of the Dragon Eater which could give him a lesser control of his power usage and having lower base stamina, although he was still in a somewhat healthy state afterwards. Still as it was mentioned in previous posts that the form was capable of eradicating Pluto.

Ise on the other hand seems to be able to stack his Triana on top of his True Queen further specializing his power into one of the 3 clear roles rather than being an all rounder. 

 

Finally the spirit of the hands, heavy hits, or what one would call it.

Ise seems to base a lot of his power around the power of friendship striking his opponents with his will. It was stated in I think it was vol. 5 where Saki hits Ise in their fights that a fist carrying a great willpower is capable of inflicting a heavy amount of damage on the receiver.  

 

I think that was what I was thinking about, albeit I may have forgotten some of it.

[Ceimur]

<spoiler>Ise's state right now can't be defeated by girls, because of the power of his bilingual and his dressbeak x dragonshot combo but, no, he can't defeat vali right now.</spoiler> 

[MrAnarchist]

Finally caught up with the light novels

Spoiler

I WANT TO KNOW MORE ABOUT GREAT RED!!!!

[Maglad]

thats not the way it works (kinda) you will find out in vol 4... the key point you take from vol 3 is

Spoiler

god is dead.. so it will effect the sacred gear system greatly

edit:<Zoom Zoom Iyaaan. Zoom Zoom Iyaaan>

What, who killed it? was it the 

Spoiler

Saint of Killers

? It was the 

Spoiler

Saint of Killers

, wasn´t it?! XD