33883 replies to this topic

[pokari]

99

As a counterpoint: As a programmer (even not as one of AI in particular), I think it's only fair that we threaten to make our own profession extinct.

I mean, we're threatening everybody else's! In fact programming has routinely decimated scores of professions even without AI, in the name of progress! Deliberately sparing our own jobs at this point would be pure selfishness; a thorough repudiation of all the times we've said of the results of our labour, "yes some people will lose jobs and that sucks, but in general humanity shall be empowered". (Anyone who said that and didn't mean it, conversely, probably deserves what's coming to them! There are of course those who never said anything like that, but it's a pretty standard programmer sentiment across the board.)

[PItiful Boar]

100 i disagree with this somewhat. There is something nice about creative work which programming is. The natural path of evolution is to convert the factory workers into programmers. We didn't do this (and they turned Trumpian). That's our fault.

 

Has anyone thought about the day after? What all the fired programmers would do? Would they simply sit still? 

[pokari]

We're killing off a damn lot of artist jobs first and they have even nicer creative stuff in their work, though ¯\_(ツ)_/¯ (and before we killed off a lot of artist jobs with this latest round, the printing press, the camera, and the photocopier all did, too).

And a lot of the factory workers did become, if not programmers, programmer-adjacent. Net result: It works better, and now there are fewer factory jobs! Same old story.

And it's not like programming for fun is going to go away as an option, either. Even assuming it actually goes away anytime soon, the hobby will be there for those who want it for its own sake.

Also there isn't really a "day after" scenario. It's not like we're going to lose all programming jobs overnight. Competition will get fiercer; for instance we'll lose the "anybody with the basic skills can get a decent-paying job" status loooong before the profession goes away. Short of a drastic sea-change that totally reconfigures society after some sort of AI singularity or similar, the whole process will take decades.

1

[PItiful Boar]

2 competition.... idk man.... are you in the mood to be competitive? is this the best way to get the cattle motivated?

[pokari]

Hm? No, I don't want it of course! XD Just commenting on the dynamics by which a profession disappearing to improved tooling is usually not an all-at-once thing—you don't usually have everyone shunted out of a profession all at once, and so there's no particular "day after"; just one day after another where things have changed a little each day.

3

But like, you know me. I figure either we figure out robo-socialism or we're fucked. The exact timeline of my own profession's decline within the two scenarios we're vying between on that front may matter a lot in the short term, but it's not the big question.

[PItiful Boar]

4 To obtain robo-socialism, the working class still have to control the means of production. and this would mean the "OpenAI" has to be really open and not under the guidance of Microsoft Google and whatever Chinese equivalent on the other side of the pacific. The top AI talent who are working for these companies have to band together and declare that whateve they're creating has to be done for the public good , not to play wargames or used as instruments of class warfare

 

Yes, I'd probably be dead before I see any lights-out AI but I fear that day isn't too far away. I just don't like where all this is going....The route to socialist control is slipping further and further away. We probably have to yield to the power of the state and trust the state.  

Maybe the 21st century story is the story of State vs Corporation

[pokari]

5

To obtain robo-socialism, the working class still have to control the means of production

Why?

I didn't say robo-marxism. That doesn't even make sense: What working class? We're talking about what happens as most all jobs are replaced by robots.

For instance, a couple of big decisions as a democracy that the government is going to be the main operator of the robot industry, and that we will use it to attempt to create a nation without want instead of to suppress the wanting, would seem to ultimately suffice.

Though there's lots of possible models that may work. Unlike classical socialism with "but who will do the work if no one suffers" doubt, the situation we're ultimately positing is "we have enough production capacity to make everyone happy, full stop; it literally more or less runs itself". The question is only how to not be dystopian shitheads about it. (That's difficult because being dystopian shitheads about resource distribution is sort of our default mode, but it's not that hard. Only at about the level of difficulty of, say, switching from a monarchy to a democracy in the first place, I reckon.)

Edited by pokari, 07 February 2023 - 10:03 PM.

[PItiful Boar]

6 Resource distribution is a thing, but more like finding meaning work... I hope to retire by flipping burgers at mcDonalds... if theyr'e still available. That's all.. Is that too much to hope for?

Will they just have integrated flying drones that can run Amazon-OS with integrated ovens that can make the sandwiches?

Is there anything I can do to help with the modern economy? Seriously...

[PItiful Boar]

7 actually it could be both… we can have a “we are fked” stage followed by a violent revolution and then “a paradise stage” where they reflected on how stupid we were 

[pokari]

Hopefully not too rough a rough path first, given that we'll be living through it!

But yeah, totally.

6 Resource distribution is a thing, but more like finding meaning work... I hope to retire by flipping burgers at mcDonalds... if theyr'e still available. That's all.. Is that too much to hope for?

Honestly: If you can solve resource distribution independently of contribution first, then there's tons of meaningful work to be done (particularly, under the presumption that it doesn't have to pay anything since basic needs are all taken care of regardless).

All the stuff we don't do because there's other stuff to be done. Going to space (a project which could easily consume all our efforts in a post-beed society, if we wanted to). Working on environmental cleanup (big and small). Checking in on neighbors to see if they're okay (...for extraverts who are okay with that sort of thing). Working on accessibility for the disabled. Spending time to learn about other cultures so that we can (hopefully) all understand each other better (maybe that's too optimistic). Working on our hobbies and sharing them so we can all have little sparks of joy in our lives.

If we solve basic needs scarcity, there's still a backlog of a metric frickton of stuff we all have to work on. I don't think we'll be running out of things to do any time soon.

8

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[pokari]

10

You forgot to count, bot.

[PItiful Boar]

Hopefully not too rough a rough path first, given that we'll be living through it!

But yeah, totally.


Honestly: If you can solve resource distribution independently of contribution first, then there's tons of meaningful work to be done (particularly, under the presumption that it doesn't have to pay anything since basic needs are all taken care of regardless).

All the stuff we don't do because there's other stuff to be done. Going to space (a project which could easily consume all our efforts in a post-beed society, if we wanted to). Working on environmental cleanup (big and small). Checking in on neighbors to see if they're okay (...for extraverts who are okay with that sort of thing). Working on accessibility for the disabled. Spending time to learn about other cultures so that we can (hopefully) all understand each other better (maybe that's too optimistic). Working on our hobbies and sharing them so we can all have little sparks of joy in our lives.

If we solve basic needs scarcity, there's still a backlog of a metric frickton of stuff we all have to work on. I don't think we'll be running out of things to do any time soon.

8

Going to space is not an urgent priority imo. I would rather convert the species into cyborgs first, so we can survive on mars in the first place. 

Culture will change with technological advancement so I'm not too focused on culture. Is there a difference between US culture and Japan culture? You've been there right? It's just the same work work work work

[PItiful Boar]

what end goal do you want in mind?

What kind of life do you want to have in 20 years?

11 i'm trying to imagine

[pokari]

Is there a difference between US culture and Japan culture? You've been there right? It's just the same work work work work

Ehh.... It's complicated. The cultural difference is huge, honestly, but we as weebs have already subconsciously absorbed at least about half of the "different" bits. But then there's the other bits... *shrugs*

That's not the strongest point on the list though. Like "familiarity breeds contempt" is another possible outcome of cross-culture learning, so. XD

Going to space is not an urgent priority imo.

I mean that was broadly my point, tho. There's no shortage of stuff to do if we want to do stuff for the sake of having stuff to do. No need to worry about that anytime soon.

what end goal do you want in mind?

What kind of life do you want to have in 20 years?
11 i'm trying to imagine

Like, idealistically/optimistically? IDK, retired and either globetrotting or settled down somewhere comfy with a nice boyfriend or something.

But, pragmatically, retiring in that time is unlikely; presently what I am is unemployed. Getting into a romance seems comparatively unlikely in the meantime, likewise, with no actions having ever been taken on my part in that direction XD

So plan B is probably something involving fewer steps that have to work. Like try to somewhere in here get remote part-time programming work that allows me to travel around the world. While programmers are still valuable enough to be able to do that! And worry about the next step after that, after that.

12

[PItiful Boar]

13 sigh... i need to configure myself out at this point. i am disappointed in myself twenty years later in that i still haven't found my groove... what kind of work do i enjoy? shitposting on the  internet? i find most relaxed reading a book at the library ... should i just get a teachers credential and read books to kids?

idk... part of me don't even want to think that far...

maybe im just too tired to think ... i'd like to contribute something to the world, but then again there's no particularly valuable... w/o me the world will still turn just fine

at least you seem to have the interest to see the world... for me? eh...

Edited by Feishy Pit Boar, 13 February 2023 - 01:55 AM.

[pokari]

Mm. Existential ennui is the worst.

*hugs*

I'm happy you're here, at least. :3

14

Since what I was listening to on the radio on the way home seems maybe topically relevant: https://hiddenbrain.org/podcast/happiness-2-0-the-path-to-contentment/

(I didn't hear the whole thing, and some of what I did hear was presented in a way that seemed a little facile, but there's definitely food for thought on the slippery nature happiness and the self-defeat of worrying about it too much—whether or not it gives any useful advice on dealing with it!)

[PItiful Boar]

15 yeah pen-pal, happy that you're here

 

 

"The Declaration of Independence ... declared all men had right to pursuit of happiness."

Well, it was property. He was following the classic liberals like Locke who declared it more explicitly. Lmao...

 

[Rainingforest]

16 dang last time I posted was seriously a couple months ago?

 

How time flies.

 

Just on here reminiscing about reading desert punk. It was so good at the start. Then went downhill with all the politics, and the art somehow got worse.

 

You talking about "in 20 years" while here I am just trying to get out of my current research coordinator job and sell my soul to capitalism. I've found that in this sad destructive world with cute cat pics that all I really want to do is to make enough money that I don't have to worry about how much I'm spending each week on food. Not that I am struggling. Just... would like to buy meat and not worry that it's $15 per pound.

[PItiful Boar]

Hey bud, welcome back

well my context was like "what kind of job will i be getting in 20 years that's not been replaced by robot"

but i totally get your sentiment about the alienation of labor

is that the price for beef?

i usually buy the chicken at safeways , it's a bit cheaper... 

Edited by Feishy Pit Boar, 13 February 2023 - 07:38 PM.