200 replies to this topic

[smthFishy]

Trailer for Snowpiercer looks interesting. The 99% wave is in.

Edited by 동사서독, 28 September 2013 - 02:51 AM.

[svines85]

This is the start of an interesting looking arc.....sleep deprivation is some pretty freaky stuff, people can go slap out of their minds when their sleep patterns get screwy enough.

 

I wondered if we weren't going to see there being a problem with the subject being real concerned with the whole "mental problems" potential labeling.

[Comadrin]

The labeling is a thread running through whole series.  I noticed that it ran through The Friendly Winter as well, although that dealt more with ableism than with hiding any mental problems because of the stigma attached.  Here in the US, we still have problems with labeling as well.  It used to be rampant in the military, but finally they seem to be paying more positive attention to PTSD than before.  In the fairly recent past, any form of depression would get a person labeled as a slacker or a wuss, and was definitely a career killer.  Getting any help for it was about as confidential as the National Enquirer.

[svines85]

The labeling is a thread running through whole series.  I noticed that it ran through The Friendly Winter as well, although that dealt more with ableism than with hiding any mental problems because of the stigma attached.  Here in the US, we still have problems with labeling as well.  It used to be rampant in the military, but finally they seem to be paying more positive attention to PTSD than before.  In the fairly recent past, any form of depression would get a person labeled as a slacker or a wuss, and was definitely a career killer.  Getting any help for it was about as confidential as the National Enquirer.

Oh you're right, I'd kind of forgotten the theme in TFW, it seems like both characters in that felt the effects of being, or the fear of being,  ostracized for being "different".

 

Yeah, you're right, I've always believed this sort of thing was reflective of a very deep seeded, almost instinctive nature.....even animals fear and "ostracize" those who are in some way "different".  Though I'm sure the severity differs from culture to culture, I don't think it will ever cease to exist no matter how far we "evolve", it's just in our nature. We might walk on two legs but we're still animals when push comes to shove.  

[Comadrin]

There was an incredible one-shot that came out a while back on this theme.  I don't remember the name, but it was about a deaf girl who  transferred into a school, and was narrated by the male student who made it his business to try and destroy her, pretty much hating her "because she was different."  It was a really powerful manga, but I only read it once, because it made me furious and sick by turns.  It cast a pretty nasty light on human nature.   My late uncle was born with no inner or outer ears, and was stone deaf.  From the small amount my father told me of his older brother's early life, it was like he was a pure white wolf in a pack of grey wolves.  He finally was left alone during middle school (early 1930's) as I understand he put more than one of his tormenters in the hospital.  

 

I can also remember elementary and middle school (1960's), when special education kids were chased, beaten up, taunted, and all the other lovely things humans do to each other.  I didn't do that sort of thing (having been taught respect for everyone from my parents, and the fact that my father would have assured that I couldn't sit down for a month if I'd ever been caught acting like that), but I ran into a number of parents at that time who were proud of their kids being bullies (the sort of people who have bumper stickers saying, "My kid beat up your honor student").  

 

For a Cultural Anthropology class some years ago, I had to read a book by an anthropologist who lived for two years with a tribe in the Amazon Basin.  There was one young woman in the tribe who was epileptic.  Whenever she had a fit, the males in the tribe would drag her out into the jungle, rape her repeatedly, and leave her there.  The rest of the tribe pretended it never happened.  It kind of cured me of any desire I had to be an anthropologist.

 

I sometimes think it boils down to empathy being a quality that many humans never develop.  "Civilized" nations, for example the culture that bred Bach, Beethoven, Goethe, and Heine, can (especially with "authorization" and encouragement coming from leaders) act like weasels in a hen house, giving us episodes in human history that are so revolting it is hard to comprehend the scope of it.  

[svines85]

Spoiler

There was an incredible one-shot that came out a while back on this theme.  I don't remember the name, but it was about a deaf girl who  transferred into a school, and was narrated by the male student who made it his business to try and destroy her, pretty much hating her "because she was different."  It was a really powerful manga, but I only read it once, because it made me furious and sick by turns.  It cast a pretty nasty light on human nature.   My late uncle was born with no inner or outer ears, and was stone deaf.  From the small amount my father told me of his older brother's early life, it was like he was a pure white wolf in a pack of grey wolves.  He finally was left alone during middle school (early 1930's) as I understand he put more than one of his tormenters in the hospital.  

 

I can also remember elementary and middle school (1960's), when special education kids were chased, beaten up, taunted, and all the other lovely things humans do to each other.  I didn't do that sort of thing (having been taught respect for everyone from my parents, and the fact that my father would have assured that I couldn't sit down for a month if I'd ever been caught acting like that), but I ran into a number of parents at that time who were proud of their kids being bullies (the sort of people who have bumper stickers saying, "My kid beat up your honor student").  

 

For a Cultural Anthropology class some years ago, I had to read a book by an anthropologist who lived for two years with a tribe in the Amazon Basin.  There was one young woman in the tribe who was epileptic.  Whenever she had a fit, the males in the tribe would drag her out into the jungle, rape her repeatedly, and leave her there.  The rest of the tribe pretended it never happened.  It kind of cured me of any desire I had to be an anthropologist.

 

I sometimes think it boils down to empathy being a quality that many humans never develop.  "Civilized" nations, for example the culture that bred Bach, Beethoven, Goethe, and Heine, can (especially with "authorization" and encouragement coming from leaders) act like weasels in a hen house, giving us episodes in human history that are so revolting it is hard to comprehend the scope of it.  

Yup, it's something that no amount of "civilizing" will ever really totally remove from people........things might be far better as cultures become more able to show compassion, but it will always be there to some degree.

 

And that was Koe no Katachi (I think that's the one you're talking about) which oddly enough I've been talking to someone about for the last day or two. Seems it got a serialization and is currently being scanlated by Futari wa Pretty Anon. It's up to seven chapters and I'm told is now moving into new story content............I'm still waffling on whether I can read it or not. Yeah, it was really powerful and upsetting type stuff. 

[smthFishy]

And that was Koe no Katachi (I think that's the one you're talking about) which oddly enough I've been talking to someone about for the last day or two. Seems it got a serialization and is currently being scanlated by Futari wa Pretty Anon. It's up to seven chapters and I'm told is now moving into new story content............I'm still waffling on whether I can read it or not. Yeah, it was really powerful and upsetting type stuff. 

Just checked the series now, and not trying to spoil the series for anyone but this has been seriously puzzling me for a long time: what's it with good girls liking bad boys? Is it something about opposites attracting?

Edited by 동사서독, 17 October 2013 - 02:50 AM.

[svines85]

Just checked the series now, and not trying to spoil the series for anyone but this has been seriously puzzling me for a long time: what's it with good girls liking bad boys? Is it something about opposites attracting?

I suppose that's part of it. From a story-telling pint of view I guess it's also having some built-in story content for the author too. I've seen some people complain about the theme being over used,  though I guess that's all in what you read. I'm reading one right now that's got the theme, Hana-kun to Koisuru Watashi..........I mean he's not really "bad" as in like a yakuza or something, but yeah, an opposites attracting sort of thing. The straight-laced class rep and the stand-offish class-cutter.  >_<  (it's really good though if you like shoujo).

[smthFishy]

"Koe" explores power dynamics that I think are not really present in "Hana", namely, those who are on the social low end ostracizing and hurting those even lower than they are to relieve themselves of the anger that they feel. Here I am thinking of adults parallels, like the last days Weimar Republic of Germany, or perhaps the rise of the Golden Dawn Party in Greece, or perhaps even what's happening in parts of the country here. That's not to say that there is no cause for the anger - they could very well be caused by understandable grievances. But it's not clear how in "Koe" the boy decides to go down the reconciliation path. Certainly not common even in the adult world. 

Edited by 동사서독, 17 October 2013 - 09:40 PM.

[svines85]

Hah!! best line in the whole chapter, "when I see Ms. Yoon it makes me want to study the concept of meddling"..........Frost gets off a funny every now and then.  

[Comadrin]

Good line, and an also appropriate observation in the profession.  I have been acquainted with several practicing psychologists, and while the majority are pretty clinical and dispassionate (in the sense of not getting personally involved), at least one was a snoopy gossip.  She was certainly not the sort of person the profession needs at all.  She probably got into it from being a "nosey parker" type, but unfortunately she also tended to gossip about her patients, and not in a "Case A" way, but with names and events.  Her conduct made me think that she was the one who needed proper counseling, preferably after her license was yanked.  Not to paint Assistant Yoon with this brush, but being somewhat meddlesome is often one reason a person gets into the profession, and it has to be balanced with the clinically dispassionate view or it impacts on the counselor and the treatment.

[smthFishy]

Yoon is eager to put her theories into practice. Not necessarily meddlesome, but perhaps wanting to influence others. She certainly has the compassion, but perhaps she lacks some tact.

 

As for the reluctance for psychotherapy... well, I think it was Michel Foucault who points out that underneath the good will of psychotherapy lies hideous mechanisms of control. Here I think the worry and anxiety is mainly financial - that is, if you're not employable in a capitalist system, you have little value. Housewives are rather embarrassed to admit their profession on TV because their value is not denumerable in monetary terms.  (What's the monetary value for preservation of the human species? Tough question if you really think about it, but I digress. ) In some ways, the problems are caused by a kind of psychology - the image of the successful hardworking pleasure-seeking individual constantly bombarded on the public conscious  by the business culture. The "cure", also through psychology, is to help the outliers to conform to a set of socially acceptable (i.e. employable) conditions. So psychology is not without critics. I kind of liken it to the dark arts - use with caution.

Edited by 동사서독, 19 October 2013 - 11:16 PM.

[Euodiachloris]

So psychology is not without critics. I kind of liken it to the dark arts - use with caution.

Meh: psychology is like any other tool, mate: it's no blacker than a knife.  As long as checks and balances are in place and the culture works out what its doing, it's all dandy.  It's what you are using it to do that counts... and why.  Any medicine or science can be abused: heck, you can use surgery in some quite horrible ways... <shivers> And, need I go into what you can do with nuclear physics?  On the one hand, power generation.  On the other...

 

See?  It's not the science that's a problem... it's the people.  And, that's the rub: psychology is trying to work people out.  And, help people work people out so they don't get hurt by people so much (or, if it's too late for that, at least limit the damage).

[smthFishy]

So like the National Rifle Association declares, it's not guns that kill people...

Ok, I take it back, it's not Dark Arts. It's the Defense Against the Dark Arts...

Edited by 동사서독, 19 October 2013 - 11:12 PM.

[Euodiachloris]

So like the National Rifle Association declares, it's not guns that kill people...

Ok, I take it back, it's not Dark Arts. It's the Defense Against the Dark Arts...

It's actually both: on the one hand, you've got sales, marketing, scams... and ideologies/ cults (which use a lot of the tools of the aforementioned trio).  These are the dark or just extremely murky sides to using psychology. The light, fluffy and slightly rumpled side is the whole "trying to make sure you don't slit your wrist during a phase you could recover from given a little help".  Which... happens to use pretty much the same tool-set.  Just... in a different way and with a few extras.

 

Thing is... the darker sides got a bit more organised a lot sooner than the whole trying to work out why those things actually do what they do in an empirical manner... and, how to counter the worst offences.

 

You don't need to know exactly how the cognition works to work out how to use people's foibles to your own benefit, after all. And, the unscrupulous have been doing that since the year dot. But, by studying how the scams, suggestions, brainwashings and indoctrinations work... you can work out how the brain itself does things.  And, use those same techniques to fix actual problems (like busting through anxiety loops that render a person incapable of many everyday tasks).

Edited by Euodiachloris, 19 October 2013 - 11:25 PM.

[smthFishy]

Can you elaborate what you have in mind when you said the darker sides "a bit" more organized? Also not sure how the "light" side would match up to the "dark" side - seems to be rather tilted to the dark side to me.

 

Of course, I was being a bit sarcastic with defense against dark arts- Harry Potter's teachers comes to mind. They are, as you say, both dark and light - but if so, are they not the sides of the same coin, the two faces of the same God? By creating this push-pull scenario, akin to the two-party system, society overall becomes more stable, and the architects of the system (the merchant class) more solidified in their rule.

Edited by 동사서독, 20 October 2013 - 05:52 AM.

[Euodiachloris]

Can you elaborate what you have in mind when you said the darker sides "a bit" more organized? Also not sure how the "light" side would match up to the "dark" side - seems to be rather tilted to the dark side to me.

Organised and semi-organised crime: namely extortion and scamming. <shrugs> Been around since well before the Romans (heck, was alive and well in Uru)... but, often doesn't know what the right hand is doing if we're talking left hands. Hence "bit more".

 

Philosophers weren't usually so quick when it came to the more practical applications of some of what they were mulling about, is all. Pick you culture, any culture.  Most of the time, this pans out.  Even in ones with wizards vs wise ones both using suggestion to either try getting money out of people, or free them from spirit possession aka depression and whatnot. Even that line could get a bit blurry.

Edited by Euodiachloris, 20 October 2013 - 06:27 AM.

[Comadrin]

Sociopaths and manipulators of all kinds seem to learn their tricks and techniques without taking a high school or college level class in psychology.  It seems to be part of the human condition, regardless of formal education.  I imagine that Jane Goodall could give us some interesting anecdotes about this condition from her observation of our nearest DNA neighbors.  There may be (strike that: most probably are) people who take college psychology courses to hone their manipulation skills, just as there are students who study law and pass the bar exam so they can work for organized crime.  In my time in the US Marines, we had people who joined and spent a three or four year tour of duty so they could become more effective gang members.  All this said, for the academic world to stop studying the human mind for fear of someone taking advantage of the findings of said study is a "head in the sand" tactic.  Yes, mental healthcare in the world isn't in the greatest of shape at this time, but most of the civilized world is far ahead of where it was fifty years ago.  If we stop studying and practicing psychology and psychiatry, we are probably headed back toward putting people in cages with half starved hyenas, as a recent BBC article pointed out as a practice still used on the mentally ill in Somalia.  Besides, the "dark side" that was mentioned above isn't likely to stop studying and experimenting.  Real scientists stopping their research is exactly the kind of scenario that this "dark side" would really love.

[smthFishy]

Sure, some people tend to be born with better ability for sociopathic traits than others, but it's still not an excuse for the systems that we create which encourages and indeed, enforces, such behavior. Wonder why attorneys, educators, and, yes, psychologists are paid so much? Because they are have to act rather conditionally sociopathic at times. (That's a great phrase - "conditional sociopathy".  Credit goes to the resident psychologist here whom I got that from.)  

 

Secondly, are you sure we're not already putting mentally ill people in cages? You're from Southern California, aren't you? Ever been to Skid Row? They say one third of the transient population are prostitutes, one third are crazies, and another third are vets. Do you that that would change with the starting or stopping of the psychiatric practices? In fact, I think it was the Regan Administration who defunded a lot of the mental institution, closed them down, and forced the patients to the streets, or through the revolving doors of prison. Nice huh.

 

And your comment about real scientists stopping their research would help the "dark side"? I can't see that at all. It would be like saying that if the Edward brothers were to give up their research in human transmutation they would somehow "help" the homulucus that are controlling in the government and bring about their human instrumentality project? The reverse might be true. I have to say that since Edward Bernays, nephew of Freud, went to work for the US government, the two sides are now pretty much aligned. Light? Dark? What's the difference?

Edited by 동사서독, 20 October 2013 - 06:25 PM.

[Euodiachloris]

Um... so... are you blaming psychologists and psychiatrists for the vagaries of culture, economics and politics, now? <confused>

 

Even those in the medical profession are part and parcel of a culture, you know.  And, subject to the winds of political hot-button topics. Even when they're trying to fight their corner and prevent some of the crap that can happen.

Edited by Euodiachloris, 20 October 2013 - 08:58 PM.