42 replies to this topic

[truepurple]

"Both have risks"

You might as well say being mugged has risks, just like buying something from the store has risks, or having home invaders come in and kill your parents and burn their house down has risks, just like moving out on your own has risks. These are absurd comparisons, just like comparing prostition and sex slavery. Everything has risks, so you bring up risks as though it had something to do with something, when it clearly is not but a red herring, a false clue, nothing to do with anything.

If you wanted a analogy of prostition and sex slavery, it would be like comparing making love with a spouse, and being brutally raped and left for near dead. Sure spouses can be voilent, and can rape, but just because the line can be fuzzy in spots on occassion, doesn't mean there isn't a definite distinction between the two.

All of you naysayers who come to childishly flick me off for daring to speak my mind, really have no concept of the horror of sexual slavery an existance that most all the time, is worse then death by far(though many get used up and killed eventually anyway) Which is nothing like being a prostitute. Yes some prostitutes are forced into the work and thus the line gets fuzzy, but again, just about any line can be fuzzy. And any "protagonist" who aids such vile activity, even if regretfully, is no protagnist at all, but a villian, just less of one then others. Sure a distopyia, a extreme one with no light, it does not make for good reading.

I wonder how many of you would be rape sypmpathizers (or worse) would be the type that would look down on a rape victim thinking 'she asked for it'. The insane logic that results in you not seeing much of a difference between sexual slavery and prostition, could easily indicate or lead to such thinking.

Then again, I wonder how many of you are just trolling.

Edited by truepurple, 17 October 2012 - 10:06 AM.

[TheRater]

people seem to have a mistaken notion about prostitutes. they are skilled workers who give up not their not their bodies (having sex isnt a big deal) , but their prides (having sex with random people, compare to having to serve a cocky bastard at a restraunt, except worst). not just anyone can be a prostitute and be successful. there are people that respect prostitutes for being able to go through with such a job.

yes there are prostitutes that are abused, but thats because they chose to do that line of work
they had no choice and had to do it? yes and there are people that are homeless that die on the streets everyday because they had no choice. abuse or death pick the greater of two evils

no matter what anyone says we all have to live, and how we do it is our business. if you dont like how someone else is living or how they think, tough luck, what are you going to do about it? you cant do anything,because it doesnt concern you. truly saving people requires that you have relevant influence in their life.

[Anthill_Inside]

Is the topic about the word choicing for sex services?

The problem is that it's not "sex services", it's about slavery in general with the sexual slavery we're seeing here only being a tiny altough for the story vera relevant part of it. It's different if one chooses to offer these services out of their own choice or if they're forced into it.

The problem I have with this isn't just the apathy of the main character but that he's actively participating in it. He's actually helping this system to keep running working with the people behind it. The very same people we get presented as bubbly happy "likeable" bunch chatting away while their lackeys "discipline"(rape) one of the girls who tried to run away.

The main character himself, the guy he grew up with and everyone else who helps to keep such an system running and is actively taking part in it is so far beyond redemption and long ago went over the moral event horizon that their depiction in this story is beyond disgusting. In any kind of other story these people would be villains, they'd be some of the most nasty villains around.

But hey I guess that's all okay because they're against drugs. Obviously violence, rape, sexual slavery and the likes aren't all that bad compared to drugs. Especially since these girls are "legally" purchased and only prostitutes (because they've been forced into that) anyway, right?

[ShaiHH]

It's funny how you take this "they are against drugs" thing. You do realise that they are against them, cause drugged prostitutes are bad for business right?
Also criminals can have principles, without being good guys, just like a murderer would still rank himself about a rapist for example. I'd say go watch the Godfather movies for a take on this and how even criminals can be against drugs, without being good due to it.

Also: So the MC isn't a knight in shining armor (yet) big deal. Actually it can make for a better story this way, as the character has the chance to grow, to get to a conclusion that makes him act and not just being "good" cause a MC has to be.(Also it would be ridiculous for him to fight the system, he would just get killed of and that would be that,)

Myself I am not that interested in the story, for all it's supposed darkness, it's way too fluffy. If you want to make a "dark" setting, go and really do it, don't just set a premise and than have the MC treat the girl to food like they are in High school.

[truepurple]

You just made the case against yourself ShaiHH. Anthill was being sarcastic about that minor redeeming quality, well you just made a excellent case for it being no kind of redeeming quality.

The MC isn't a knight in shining amor, the MC is a villian. The MC not only doesn't fight the system, he actively participates in helping to crush lives. All this was detailed by anthill, who you apparently didn't bother to read. In this story, there is no protagonist, unless you maybe count the glowing wing girl.

Your conclusion about it being "fluffy" is total BS, the MC buying food for the girl is so that she doesn't starve, (he's got plenty of money with his job helping to enslave and rape girls, he can spare some for a meal) and what does highschool have to do with feeding someone? In order for it to be dark enough for you, would the MC have to torture her and leave her to starve to death in a dungeonish basement, just for laughs? And is that all you have for your claim of "fluffy", feeding someone in his charge?

Edited by truepurple, 14 January 2013 - 11:29 AM.

[Gene Eric Pseudonym]

The MC isn't a knight in shining amor, the MC is a villian. The MC not only doesn't fight the system, he actively participates in helping to crush lives. All this was detailed by anthill, who you apparently didn't bother to read.

The lesser evil is still evil, but is also still less evil. Much of the MC's anti-hero attitudes and actions are clearly a product of the dog-eat-dog world he lives in, and while slavery is fundamentally wrong, one can rationally see why (even if we don't condone it) they take some of the actions they do.

Spoiler

In such a hostile world, mindlessly trying to fight the system and shown to be weak by inability to enforce their rules, getting wiped out because of it, only for those who are even worse to fill in the power vacuum, is hardly an improvement.

... And it's still certainly better than Ivory Tower solutions like burning the whole city down, uncaring about killing innocents along with the guilty.

In this story, there is no protagonist, unless you maybe count the glowing wing girl.

A fundamental misunderstanding on your part. The term "protagonist" does not necessarily equate to "good guy".

Hell, across all forms of media (anime, manga, video games, TV, etc), there are any number of series where the MC is a "Villain Protagonist".

[truepurple]

So to you, protagonist=main character, nothing more or less?

Well, how ever you label him, clearly a villain. Left without anyone to root for, except for mystery girl with wings maybe. If the MC just tolerated the sex slavery, and did something shady but less clearly over the moral event horizon, I wouldn't have such a problem with it. And understand why they take some of the actions they do? Yeah, money, power, and survival, what is there to understand. Knowing that is meaningless though.

And sex slavery is almost always much worse then labor slavery. At least laborers aren't typically raped, not locked into small rooms to service many, are kept in decent enough shape to continue their labor. I know some people can be both (though usually even then, I bet better to be a raped labor slave, then a dedicated sex slave)

... And it's still certainly better than Ivory Tower solutions like burning the whole city down, uncaring about killing innocents along with the guilty.

Well, I was partially being extra extreme to make a point, but partially serious. I mean, when the city makes Sodom and Gomorrah look like monasteries, burning everyone except the uncorrupted does seem like a interesting solution, at least looking at it in abstract (as most people in real life would find it hard to stomach killing a bunch of people, even if they were horrible, including me)

[Gene Eric Pseudonym]

So to you, protagonist=main character, nothing more or less?

Given that the term "protagonist" means pretty much just that, and "Villain Protagonist" are actually quite common in fiction, should it be anything else to me?

Well, how ever you label him, clearly a villain. Left without anyone to root for, except for mystery girl with wings maybe. If the MC just tolerated the sex slavery, and did something shady but less clearly over the moral event horizon, I wouldn't have such a problem with it.

He was also the one who brought and freed Eris, and gave her the task of being the girls' doctor, even though she wanted (and continues to want) to serve him personally.

And sex slavery is almost always much worse then labor slavery. At least laborers aren't typically raped, not locked into small rooms to service many, are kept in decent enough shape to continue their labor. I know some people can be both (though usually even then, I bet better to be a raped labor slave, then a dedicated sex slave)

In a general sense, that might be true. But with the exception of that one girl who broke the rules by trying to escape with her client, all the other girls owned by the gang shown seem fairly healthy, don't seem too discontent with their lot (even having time to gossip and be jealous of Eustia for hogging Caim's attention, and walk around the city unsupervised). Plus, Eris and Melt's situation gives us reasons to believe that this gang at least gives the girls a chance to "earn" their freedom, instead of just being used up and thrown away.

Well, I was partially being extra extreme to make a point, but partially serious. I mean, when the city makes Sodom and Gomorrah look like monasteries, burning everyone except the uncorrupted does seem like a interesting solution, at least looking at it in abstract (as most people in real life would find it hard to stomach killing a bunch of people, even if they were horrible, including me)

Maybe not exactly the best example, since the only people spared from death over Sodom and Gomorrah, was a man who offered to throw his two virgin daughters to a rampaging mob to do whatever they wish to, and his family. Everyone else in the cities, men, women and children...

Edited by Gene Eric Pseudonym, 21 January 2013 - 12:13 PM.

[truepurple]

I think you are mixing up biblical stories there. I once read the whole bible, and I am familar with a story about a guy sending out his daughter to attackers to save strangers, and her body being cut up into 12 pieces and sent to the 12 tribes, and then they destroyed the tribe where the incident happen. But 200 men or something survived, and they felt guilty about destroying a whole tribe and gave them their daughters for them to take in a festival (I am sure, unbeknowst to the girls) for them to "take" so that the tribe would not die out. Sodom and Gomorrah had to do with Lot and company, and I don't recall Lot sending out a daughter to be raped. (though I am thinking he ended up having sex with a daughter or two, they got him drunk on wine I think)

I don't remember anything in the story that indicates how healthy or happy most of the sex slaves are. Though it has been some time since I have read this. Anyway, the author clearly doesn't have a problem with rape, and from what I have heard, many rapists fantasize that their victims will learn to love their abuse, I suppose that applies to rape sympathizers too.

Many modern sex slavers use the promise of earning freedom to help keep their victims in line with hope. But the price of their freedom, the low value assigned to their rapes, the unreasonable fees they attach to anything and everything, its really just a ploy, a bait continously hung in front of the nose. If they ever earn freedom, it is if they live long enough to become so old that they no longer have any value. And then probably start working for the "industry" themselves by then, the victims becoming predators themselves.(as is often the case with victims, especially those of sex violence)

Why couldn't they have made the MC a thief, a assassin, a serial killer, just trying to get along in a messed up world, at least then the story wouldn't be so dark.

[Gene Eric Pseudonym]

I think you are mixing up biblical stories there.
-
Sodom and Gomorrah had to do with Lot and company, and I don't recall Lot sending out a daughter to be raped. (though I am thinking he ended up having sex with a daughter or two, they got him drunk on wine I think)

Nope, I haven't. Short version:

• God send Angels as disguised agents to Lot.
• S&G mob ask Lot to let them "know" (read: "have sex with") these strangers.
• Lot offers his daughters, who have "never known" men (read: "virgins"), instead.
• Mob refuses offer, angels strike mob blind, shortly after S&G gets annihilated.

I don't remember anything in the story that indicates how healthy or happy most of the sex slaves are. Though it has been some time since I have read this. Anyway, the author clearly doesn't have a problem with rape, and from what I have heard, many rapists fantasize that their victims will learn to love their abuse, I suppose that applies to rape sympathizers too.

Except with the example of Eris, it's strongly implied that Caim her never touched her (however much she's wanted it). Again, you're mixing the willingness to portray a dystopian world, with condoning the actions in that world.

Many modern sex slavers use the promise of earning freedom to help keep their victims in line with hope. But the price of their freedom, the low value assigned to their rapes, the unreasonable fees they attach to anything and everything, its really just a ploy, a bait continously hung in front of the nose. If they ever earn freedom, it is if they live long enough to become so old that they no longer have any value. And then probably start working for the "industry" themselves by then, the victims becoming predators themselves.(as is often the case with victims, especially those of sex violence)

I'm aware of the psychology behind the general use of the "ploy" (basically carrot and stick, in other words). However, the examples of Eris and Melt show that it isn't just a mere ploy, but an actual possible outcome.

Edit: Minor correction of quote marks.

Edited by Gene Eric Pseudonym, 22 January 2013 - 10:41 AM.

[truepurple]

So the MC didn't actually rape anyone, that we know of, and consensual sex is immaterial, since there is no immorality there. He brought, and brought back, slaves. As near as I could figure, he is a enforcer for the sex slavers. If he brings girls for them to rape and enslave, he is guilty of rape and enslavement himself. Just like both the assassin and the person who hired the assassin are responsible for that assassins kills.

In concentration camps, some jews were made supervisors of others, they were rewarded with better living conditions and better chance of living. (though clearly doomed eventually if the war had gone the other way) But not all the jews could become supervisors, rather only enough to fill the desired roles of control. And from what I remember of the cold way those women spoke of their less fortunate counterparts, I could definitely see them serving such a role as those jewish supervisors.

Protagonists by nature of a story, are those you are suppose to root for, if anyone. I have never seen a story where the story wanted you to hope someone other then the person the story/camera followed around would be the one that succeeds, at least not any stories that are at all good. So if the MC is actively aiding and abetting rape and enslavement, then it is like the story itself is condoning that behavior. Especially since the story never gets at all critical of this behavior in any fashion, rather it treats him bringing in sex slaves as though he were bringing in groceries or something.

Edited by truepurple, 22 January 2013 - 04:15 PM.

[Gene Eric Pseudonym]

And from what I remember of the cold way those women spoke of their less fortunate counterparts, I could definitely see them serving such a role as those jewish supervisors.

Sorry, but that appears to have no resemblance to what the series has actually shown. We have one former "girl" for the gang running her own bar under the protection (though the "protection" comes at at price, it's hinted that this was mostly for show) of the gang, another who works as the doctor for the girls (though she would rather flirt and try to seduce the MC, until the MC shoots down her excuse, and one of the "girls" cheerfully dragging her off), the "girls" for the gang shown almost universally allowed to walk around totally unsupervised, and the only "girl" contradicting the possibility of "earning" her way to freedom was clearly doing so out of jealousy for the MC's attention.

Protagonists by nature of a story, are those you are suppose to root for, if anyone.

That's your opinion, not a fact.

I have never seen a story where the story wanted you to hope someone other then the person the story/camera followed around would be the one that succeeds, at least not any stories that are at all good.

That only suggests that your exposure to range of fiction is relatively limited. See this for a non-comprehensive list of examples of Villain Protagonists.

[Baka~Yuri]

Woooo, everyone is so heated up in this thread. I am not sure if that heat is still here but i am gonna join in!
So what are we talking about?

[Dice Warwick]

in all likelihood, it's a combination of service ans slavery. The female lead was obviously a slave before she was sold to the brothel, and the brothel worker do seem to have some amount of freedom. So you can assume that the city already has a system of slavery, of which the brothel work within that system, but unlike other slaves the girls have more worth if their doing their service willingly, and are given a level of freedom and protection.

 

So yes it is sex slavery, but only in the context of an overall system of slavery, so it's more of a sex service of witch most of the girls happen to be slaves. It's still a bad thing, their still slaves, and in all likelihood they are raped as well, but it's something that is happening in a per-existing system, the brothels are just at the tail end of it.

[truepurple]

Gene, it is clear these girls are given latitude and some freedom because A. Probably outaged their usefulness as sex slaves. and even more importantly B. Proven themselves useful in propagating the system in one way or another. They are the lucky exceptions. I see no evidence that this is the case for the majority of the sex slaves.

 

 "See this for a non-comprehensive list of examples of Villain Protagonists."

 

I did say "That were any good" and obviously this is a subjective thing. But lots like their protagonists to at least be hero adjacent, and not villainish, which is why for the vast majority of stories, protagonist is often synonymous with hero.  The format that has the largest exception to this are video games, and usually it's either a player choice, or a game were the particulars of the story aren't all that important anyway, usually as a rather generic stereotypical and vague maniacal evil type.

 

Dice so your saying there is a overall (governmental?) system of sex slavery. That just makes it more dystopic. They are both force-ably taken into the slavery, and once there, forced into sex aka raped. Whether if they submit to this/cooperate, are given or can eventually earn some level of freedom within their slavery, hardly makes it not horrific and dystopian. And the protagonist works as a enforcer for this very "system", which makes him no better.

 

P.S. The fact that they need to bribe officials means at least some of it is being done outside of a official government system. But in the end it doesn't really matter if its official government or not.

Edited by truepurple, 10 April 2013 - 10:24 PM.

[kshin]

maybe you arent reading the story right.  it doesnt try to justify shit that happens.

 

go read sun ken rock and complain there lol.

[truepurple]

Normalization is almost like justification. But it doesn't matter if it justifies anything or not in the end(yes I know, the threads title, but maybe actually read content too). The main point is, there is precious little to root or hope for in this story world. Too much darkness with little light makes for a boring read.

 

Where justification comes into play is how the comic rather just brushes off so casually what is such a serious issue. That anything could read this comic and think it is not dark enough compared to what it comports to be, (and someone earlier said just that) is evidence of this.

 

As far as sun ken rock goes, I glanced through it, just obvious pandering not meant to be taken as a serious story line. But even at that, I saw no evidence of normalized sex slavery 

Edited by truepurple, 15 April 2013 - 07:02 AM.

[Gene Eric Pseudonym]

Gene, it is clear these girls are given latitude and some freedom because A. Probably outaged their usefulness as sex slaves. and even more importantly B. Proven themselves useful in propagating the system in one way or another. They are the lucky exceptions. I see no evidence that this is the case for the majority of the sex slaves.

Once again, we also see girls who were actually still "working" for the gang openly walking the streets on their own to hook in potential customers, as with the girl that went and fetched Eris, none of whom appeared to be supervised in any way.

 

The creators of the story clearly intended to create a setting where Black and Gray Morality is the norm, where the main character is at best somewhere on the gray side of that spectrum, with characters like Tia being one of the rare beacons of light. If you can't deal with that, that's fine, nobody is putting a gun against your head and forcing you to read this. But if you want to argue a line like this: "If this comic ends up making people more jaded, less shocked, upon encountering such real life human tragedy, that would be a sad lagecy for what is suppose to only be entertainment."

 

... Then I can only refer you to this.

 

 

I did say "That were any good" and obviously this is a subjective thing. But lots like their protagonists to at least be hero adjacent, and not villainish, which is why for the vast majority of stories, protagonist is often synonymous with hero.  The format that has the largest exception to this are video games, and usually it's either a player choice, or a game were the particulars of the story aren't all that important anyway, usually as a rather generic stereotypical and vague maniacal evil type.

 

Again, this is you trying to force your own "square peg" interpretation into a word that actually has a "round hole" definition. Just because some people "like" their protagonists to be "heroes", doesn't change the fact that the word "protagonist" simply equates to "main character", whether that protagonist is actually a hero, an anti-hero, or a villain.

[VAiNeTY]

Just a simple comment. Why so serious? Take a step back and look at this manga for a while... The author meant it to be this way. So i am quoting most of the people who posted in this. "Deal with it"

Gene, it is clear these girls are given latitude and some freedom because A. Probably outaged their usefulness as sex slaves. and even more importantly B. Proven themselves useful in propagating the system in one way or another. They are the lucky exceptions. I see no evidence that this is the case for the majority of the sex slaves.

 

 "See this for a non-comprehensive list of examples of Villain Protagonists."

 

I did say "That were any good" and obviously this is a subjective thing. But lots like their protagonists to at least be hero adjacent, and not villainish, which is why for the vast majority of stories, protagonist is often synonymous with hero.  The format that has the largest exception to this are video games, and usually it's either a player choice, or a game were the particulars of the story aren't all that important anyway, usually as a rather generic stereotypical and vague maniacal evil type.

 

Dice so your saying there is a overall (governmental?) system of sex slavery. That just makes it more dystopic. They are both force-ably taken into the slavery, and once there, forced into sex aka raped. Whether if they submit to this/cooperate, are given or can eventually earn some level of freedom within their slavery, hardly makes it not horrific and dystopian. And the protagonist works as a enforcer for this very "system", which makes him no better.

 

P.S. The fact that they need to bribe officials means at least some of it is being done outside of a official government system. But in the end it doesn't really matter if its official government or not.

Oh and FYI what would you do in this case? The protag is human you know? He is not some of those protag that enforce "JUSTICE" blindly. He accepted this world world because it's the only one he has. Everyone in the world is somewhat evil somewhat good. Small example : Police. Is it always good? NOPE. Is it always bad? Neither. You are forcing the protag to be the new Jesus. Don't tell me you never did something cruel to someone. You did at least once. Did you reflect on it? Probably not. He is doing the same so now just enjoy this manga and stop bitching about this.

[Dice Warwick]

truepurple, the point is that it is a governmental thing, and on top of that it is a closed off society, with the lower area even more closed off then the rest of the city. On the same point, their is no place for the slaves to run, nor an outside group to give them shelter, simply put, things are shit, and their is nothing anyone on the bottom can do about it. It's like the cites in "Bioshock" were they are so closed off from the world, when things go bad they can only see it as normal, as they cant just look to another city and see that their normal is wrong.

 

As for our MC, he may be an enforcer for the system, but he is just as much a slave to it as the others.