367 replies to this topic

[fiveseconds]

The Primeval Gods aren't entirely exempt from the universe. Yama can refuse to do what Visnu asks him to, just as he can go on strike. Honestly, what would a Primeval God do to force them? Fight? Brahma didn't even care. She had a whatever attitude and just went to complete the work herself.

And remember Visnu cannot determine the nature of a human. He doesn't have the power to give someone immortality. I think you are overestimating his abilities. It's not an issue of bossing gods around left and right. He maintains order on a much higher level than the five zen gods and that order dictates that the universe and its people have to abide by set laws.

[Mizura]

It seems to me that the Primeval Gods are the ones who assigned the Gods their jobs (like making Indra the King of the Astika, which basically meant more paperwork). They probably also have authority to guide them in their jobs to a point (like, Manasvin and Sagara told Gandharva that Visnu did have the authority to force Varuna to create an ocean for the Gandharva, except Visnu was no longer there).

In the case of Ian though, Visnu was basically asking Yama to Bend the rules. It'd be like, if you're the boss of a bank, you can force an employee to create a new account for a client, but if you ask for something illegal like opening the private vault of a client or adding money to a certain account, your employee will likely refuse.

Anyway, the Gods must be fuming at the fact that their "boss" is buddy-buddy with Nastika. xD

Edited by Mizura, 11 October 2012 - 01:43 AM.

[Boredoom]

Well... is it just me, or is anybody else curious why Nastika and Astika has such a hostile relationship? i've been thinkning of it, but the answer evades my sight D:

[Mizura]

I'm curious too. I'm also curious to know how the humans fit in all this. For what purpose were they created?

It could be that Nastika and Astika hate each other for some sort of racism. I mean:

• In some ways, the weaker Astika may see the stronger And multiplying (and, in many cases, violent) Nastika as a threat and aberration (just because Gods can resurrect doesn't mean they necessarily like to be blown to bits). Not all gods are immortal too: the Created Gods can die if their jurisdiction is destroyed. So, while the Nastika are going around blowing planets, the Gods may very much resent them doing so.
• In the meantime, the Nastika probably view the Gods as an ever persistant nuisance. Also, since the Astika are weaker, it is not surprising that they'd resort to under-handed techniques to try to get the upper hand (they could just consider it tactics), but the Nastika look down on them for doing so.

Shakuntala said that the Gods weren't that different from the Sura, and that they all had something they wanted to protect. It'd be interesting to see what this "something precious" happens to be for some of the Gods. Maybe some of the Gods care about humans, who face the threat of Sura. Well, we actually don't really know how most Gods view humans, though.

[Boredoom]

Hmmm, maybe ...

Also, why Nastikas would blow up planets make me curious, but dislike shouldn't lead to such a large scale war :/

[Ichypa]

I wonder...if a Nastika's Power of the Name disappears from the universe along with them when they die, could the event that weakened the bond between humanity and the sura, letting the gods make human swear to only use magic drawn from them, be the death of Anata? Since the power of his name no long existed, magic that related to him could no longer be used after his death.

[Mizura]

^ Actually, that was a mistranslation... I first noticed it while google-translating some theories in the KuCa, then got another Korean to retranslate that for me:
"That was the true meaning, however humans had lost a lot of things because of the powers of the Suras and swore that they would stand on the side of the gods, and cut all relationships with Suras; magicians just became 'humans who used the powers of gods'." Basically to the humans, the Sura are the villains.

As for Nastika blowing up planets, okay, we don't actually know if they did that frequently. >_>;; We just know that they can. A lot of planets were also blown up during the Cataclysm... geez, I wonder what happened during the Cataclysm! *_*

[Ichypa]

^ Actually, that was a mistranslation... I first noticed it while google-translating some theories in the KuCa, then got another Korean to retranslate that for me:
"That was the true meaning, however humans had lost a lot of things because of the powers of the Suras and swore that they would stand on the side of the gods, and cut all relationships with Suras; magicians just became 'humans who used the powers of gods'." Basically to the humans, the Sura are the villains.

As for Nastika blowing up planets, okay, we don't actually know if they did that frequently. >_>;; We just know that they can. A lot of planets were also blown up during the Cataclysm... geez, I wonder what happened during the Cataclysm! *_*

Of course, now that begs the question of how they managed to do that. Since clearly not all humans wished to cut ties with the Sura, like Ian's village, how could people sever ties for EVERYONE, even those that didn't want to. It made sense when I thought the bond had weakened, because with a greater concensus the gods could have interstates with a weakened bond and cut it for everyone. But if the connection to the Sura was just as strong as the connection to the Gods, and it was the humans who severed the relationship, not the gods, then I can't see how they did that.

[Mizura]

WHOA, that's a very good question! I've never thought about that. After all, humans are spread across many cities on many planets. Did it just *poof* happen? I guess that also brings us to the original question of just who humans are and why they could borrow the power of Sura and Gods in the first place.

I guess there are two possibilities:
- Either humans really Can't borrow from Nastika anymore
- Or it's just that the knowledge has been lost and/or all those capable were exterminated. D:

Since humans were originally neutral, I think it's also likely that humans couldn't systematically borrow from either side (if anything because of lack of knowledge). On the Sura-worshipping side, for example, I imagine the only humans who were able to borrow power from Nastika from one race came specifically from villages that worshipped that race, and only that race (an example being Ian's dragon-worshipping village, though they were worshipping a Half, so they didn't have the knowledge of how to borrow Nastika power either). So, a dragon-worshipping village would only have some knowledge on how to borrow power from dragons, for example.

However, when humans swore loyalty to the Gods, they could have received blanket agreement to borrow from all Gods. By gathering into cities protected by Gods, humans could then spread divine magic systematically by forming magic schools and researching specific magic formulas, therefore allowing all those with some potential to learn magic (like learning physics in school. Before that, they probably had a less rigorous approach to magic). So, not only did divine magic become much more easily available, but god-worshipping humans may have also hunted heretics almost out of existence.

We still don't know if fiendish magic became Absolutely impossible though.

Edited by Mizura, 12 October 2012 - 01:35 AM.

[Ichypa]

Having the knowledge lost makes sense, but I think it us unlikely because it seemed that Mistyshore (god-worshiping community) and Ian's village(Sura worshiping community) weren't really hostile to each other, they actually seemed to largely ignore each other. There seemed to be no desire to eliminate the other side, so there would be no reason for all the Fiendish magic using magicians to have died out because of fighting holy magic using magicians.

Plus, I think it has been said that Visnu had Brahma create the barriers around the cities as a result of humans choose to cut their ties with the Sura. Why create powerful, invincible defenses AFTER you've just gone through a major war?

I think it is more likely that the human somehow can no longer draw power from the Nastikas

[Mizura]

Hm. I wasn't sure in that part, but in Chapter 10, when Shess was explaining Ian's past to Tak, he seemed to assume that Ian's village was left alone just in case it was really protected by a dragon. Also, see the trial Ian went through in Chapter 12. Ian had been rejected by every city before being accepted by Mistyshore, only after she swore to abandon her faith in the dragons. Some wanted her killed. So, god-worshippers really didn't look to heretics kindly.


Still, it makes sense. If there was a human vs human war, then the barrier would have been highly unfair. Maybe the rules were changed?

[Ariatha]

Mizura you are my hero.

[Boredoom]

I think that if the human(majority) asked lets say Visnu or some other Primeval God they may've been able to sever the "Bond" which allowed humans borrow Nastikas power.

[Ichypa]

I think that if the human(majority) asked lets say Visnu or some other Primeval God they may've been able to sever the "Bond" which allowed humans borrow Nastikas power.

Maybe, but the Primeval Gods werent involved in the war between the Gods and the Sura. Hmmm...though... Brahma, being absolutly neutral, wouldn't have done it, Visnu, who has Nastika Friends he wouldn't want to put at a disadvantage, wouldn't either, and people apparently know better than to trust Kali. But that still leaves Shiva. We no nothing about him save that he is the god of destruction, fixes error in the universe, disappeared with Visnu during N0, and he and Kali hate each other with a fiery passion. A total mystery. We have no idea what motives he has for doing things, or even really what things he does. Plus he could have "destroyed" the bond, so if a Primeval God is the root cause of this situation, then I would bet it to be him.

[Mizura]

Mizura you are my hero.

Aww, schucks.

Hmm, it'd be really interesting to find out more about how humans sided with the Gods. Perhaps the humans argued that their current situation wasn't fair. I mean, the Gods and the Nastika fought since the beginning of time, but since then the Sura side have added a bazillion Upani and Maras, whereas the Gods couldn't increase their numbers that easily.

Somehow, Gods + Humans borrowing the power of Gods is a fair balance against the now larger Sura population. N0 showed that: the Gods had their hands full with the superior Sura as is, and humans could barely handle the inferior Sura on the ground.

Edited by Mizura, 13 October 2012 - 04:19 AM.

[Ichypa]

It seems like the humans were only created to serve the gods. Several domians wouldn't exist without humanity. Aswins, god of medicine, for example. Suras and Gods can both regenerate, so they have no need for medicine, so without humans, Aswins wouldn't exist, and the forces of the Gods would be lacking an whole 4-Zen God. On an unrelated note, it feels like Aswins' existence is a paradox. Humans create medicine=birth of Aswins=healing magic=more effective and convenient that medicine=knowledge of medicine fades and is lost=destruction of Domain of medicine=death of Aswins.

[themantarays]

Isn't it also sort of the other way around then? It looks to me like some gods like Asvins are dependent on humans, too. Maybe humans were only created for some of the gods to exist. Or maybe, when the gods made humans stop borrowing from sura, they made new gods for them to borrow the powers of, although that would imply that healing, etc. didn't even exist before, since the gods are intertwined with their domains. Seriously, why even bother making humans at all, primeval gods?

[Boredoom]

@Ichipya, i doubt medicine in its whole would disappear, yes, lets say every human on all planets but one single human could use healing magic; that human injures him/herself and uses some bandages, would that count as "medicine" or would it not? If so that wouldn't that be all needed to keep Asvins alive?...

(...don't count on me to reply instantly on anything, often forgets i even wrote something)

[Newbie <3]

i dont think its healing i think its life itself because hoti asvin is like faster molecule regeneration(reproduction)

Edited by Newbie <3, 14 October 2012 - 08:07 PM.

[Ichypa]

True...now that I think about it, Teo and Elwin both bandaged Gandharva, so I guess basic first aid is still used.

Now I must ask, how did Aswins get her(?) Name? All the Names were given to the earliest life forms, but Aswins wouldn't have come into existence until after humans. Why didn't a human get the Name?

Also, when I look back to the chapter where Maruna goes to live with Gandharva, where all their ages are shown as question marks, Gandharva has ten marks, meaning that his age is in the billions.Taksaka said he was older that 1billion, so does that mean the universe is, say, 7 billion years old, or was Currygom only trying to show that Gandharva was mad old and not really paying attention to how many question marks there were, so long as there were a lot of them.