22 replies to this topic

[Oliverfr]

Hello,

 

I recently found that Onepunch-man has been removed from Batoto: while the series is still listed among the comics, all the chapters have been removed, and the description tells there won't be anymore chapters, because, etcetera.

 

I sure won't blame Batoto for complying when you're faced with a legal obligation.

 

My suggestion lies elsewhere: that Batoto does one last action making the series appear, again, in our My Follows list, so that we know that we cannot count on Batoto anymore for future updates from the scanlators.

 

For instance, publish a final "fake chapter" as if it were a newly released chapter, that would simply be called "notice of discontinuation", with just one page, a jpeg with text, telling something along the likes of "well, guys, sorry, we got a copyright complaint and remove the series from Batoto. Be well everyone, take care."

 

As things are, I missed something like 2 months of Onepunch-man releases as I patiently waited for the series to appear again in the My Follows page.

Sure, I can survive that terrrrrrrible ordeal. But I think it's a nice idea, a notice of suspension appearing as if it were a new chapter, this way we wouldn't be left in the fog

Edited by Oliverfr, 01 November 2015 - 11:49 PM.

[aviar]

I'd actually like to see the opposite, that they permit publishing that a new chapter was released, but without content (I can just look elsewhere for that). Would help keep everything manga centralized for me.

[svines85]

https://vatoto.com/forums/topic/23439-dmca-announcements-as-uploads/

 

 

This seems to be about the same idea as in this thread, and I'm going to say the same thing here as I said there..........the last thing this site is going to do is make a big deal (big, noticeable announcements) out of them removing content.

 

You can't really blame them, that's just bad business, man. Imagine just how many notices might be going out, and how many customers that might mean them losing because they're basically standing at the front door and telling potential customers "yeah, we don't have your favorite brand, you should go to another store"  >_<

I'd actually like to see the opposite, that they permit publishing that a new chapter was released, but without content (I can just look elsewhere for that). Would help keep everything manga centralized for me.

 

Yeah, that's what Manga/Baka updates is for, and that's not what this site is in business to do........it's just a reader site, not an information site (like MU)

 

http://www.mangaupdates.com/releases.html

 

Just a heads-up, that's how I knew onepunchman wasn't here anymore, I saw a release reported on MU and it didn't show up here. Seriously, you kinda have to put in a little effort yourself on this stuff.

[aviar]

 

Yeah, that's what Manga/Baka updates is for, and that's not what this site is in business to do........it's just a reader site, not an information site (like MU)

 

http://www.mangaupdates.com/releases.html

 

Just a heads-up, that's how I knew onepunchman wasn't here anymore, I saw a release reported on MU and it didn't show up here. Seriously, you kinda have to put in a little effort yourself on this stuff.

 

Didn't know that site updated only with translated mangas, I thought they just updated with any manga that was releases, translated or not.

 

Also, the whole saying you don't have a product, yeah, that is something sites should do, especially if they have membership requirements. A simple HTML page with a list would be enough.

Edited by aviar, 02 November 2015 - 05:30 AM.

[svines85]

Didn't know that site updated only with translated mangas, I thought they just updated with any manga that was releases, translated or not.

 

Also, the whole saying you don't have a product, yeah, that is something sites should do, especially if they have membership requirements. A simple HTML page with a list would be enough.

 

The vast majority of MU's information is directly related to fan scanaltions / reported releases by fan scanlations groups. If you're not registered there and/or don't have your lists of titles entered there so that you get notices on that site, then yeah, you're likely missing out on something most every day if you're interested in as many titles as I am.

 

Yes, if you really want to keep up with manga scanlations, the basics are MangaUpdates and following the individual scan groups for release notices from them.

 

Haah....... really? If this was your site you'd feel obligated to send/post big, formal notices to/for all your customers each and every time you removed/quit allowing/carrying their favorite content? Come on, man, let's be reasonable about this, that just ain't how real life works. The admins/Grumpy have said this time and time again, they're more than glad to be the scanaltor's friend.........but there's a line to be drawn when it comes to doing so much that it cuts their own throat.

 

 

And, in all fairness, the site/Grumpy does list the DMCA (specifically that, nothing else) takedown/removal stuff, and onepunchman was listed....... for those who read/pay close attention to all corners of the forums.

 

 

 

 

 

https://vatoto.com/forums/topic/20345-more-dmca/

 

Good for him, that's a stand-up kind of thing to do........I'll tell you right now, I wouldn't have made the first announcement about any of it, and none of the other reader sites would have either. All you have to do is take a look at what happened over at MF a year or so ago......... the site itself didn't/hasn't, to this day, officially said the first thing about why the site suddenly created hurdles for people in the US to access most of their content anymore  

Edited by svines85, 02 November 2015 - 07:27 AM.

[aviar]

I never said about notifying people individually or notices (big or small), and I already knew about the forum post. The problem is, there's probably a bit of people that do not visit the forum, and I believe it is common courtesy to inform the user of what is not available due to policy. Thus, I think adding an actual noticeable link to a list would be nice. Furthermore, I'm not sure if Ctrl+f works with content inside of spoiler tags (haven't tried).

[OMGWTFBBQPONIES]

I think there's some confusion between you two. While batoto has no interest in informing about releases of scanlators who disallow hosting their stuff here, lack of better notification for users when someone tells us to stop hosting the series completely/permanently (like what viz or naver did with some stuff) is a different thing and it is somewhat problematic. Personally I'd be for something like sending mass notifications for people who followed a comic that is going to be either deleted (duplicates or merging anthologies) or locked using the existing IPB feature, but I fear it's impossible to connect it to grumpy's custom reader stuff (at least given the amount of work it'd require and/or it possibly breaking whenever we'd update IPB).

 

Furthermore, I'm not sure if Ctrl+f works with content inside of spoiler tags (haven't tried).

That DMCA thread is nice if you want to find out why some series might be missing chapters that once were there, but 1) half of it are pastebin links so it requires effort to look through it and 2) it's not exhaustive since it's about that DMCA spree Japan caused and doesn't include stuff like publishers/rightowners telling us to stop hosting something in all languages (i.e. attacking the comic instead of individual releases).

[Halo]

1) half of it are pastebin links so it requires effort to look through it

1 (one) additional click = effort. Okay.

There a quick list of all the dmca/popular_but_empty (scroll down) stuff: http://batoto.horahora.xyz/graveyard
Not all dmca'd stuff marked as such though, but you know - effort..............

[OMGWTFBBQPONIES]

1 (one) additional click = effort. Okay.

Opening all pastebin links + some spoilers because you don't know where it could be. Not saying it's "omg, can't be bothered to do it" kind of effort, but more of a "have to repeat it for each case I'm not sure why chapters are removed instead of having a quick glance sheet detailing it" effort. Might be mod experiences influencing my perception because tedium is additive and I also have other resources to browse through if checking that thread fails.

Thanks for the link btw.

[svines85]

I believe it is common courtesy to inform the user of what is not available

 

Haaa......... I'm going to leave you with one last thing to consider in light of what you seem to keep going back to............when you go to the grocery store, is there a big, detailed, meticulously and exhaustively maintained and compiled listing of aaaaalll the products they're out of posted there?

 

Stop and think about this for just a second and consider it in light of what you're saying you think is something you should expect this site to do for you.

 

My initial response to this thread........well, all my responses for that matter.........  were meant to inform and help. Don't shoot the messenger because he tells you something you don't like  

[aviar]

Your comparison is pointless, the grocery store has to do it by hand, themselves. This is not the case for Batoto, the list of what is available is automatic, individuals upload and input data, Batoto processes and stores it. The only thing that requires manual intervention is listing material that is explicitly banned due to policy (and which honestly isn't that hard to automate, a flag in a database entry is enough). So pretty much what you are saying is a hyperbole, it is both doable and expectable.

 

Also you seem to think I didn't think or reflect in my responses, or imply it. I, as a developer, believe I have a grasp on the complexity of the simple things, so it is not as if I am asking for pie in the sky. It's all things that may be expected, but it's not like I am going to leave if it's not there. 

 

The whole idea is that I can easily determine what content I cannot find here due to site policy, so that I may find it elsewhere (Iike manga aggregators or scanlation groups).

[Oliverfr]

But... but... I didn't want to start a shitstorm T___T

 

All I wanted to say that: most of us, the basic readers, will stay unaware the series we follow are canceled, and it would be cool if Batoto, in the process of updating a series as suspended, could have a mechanism of uploading one last fake chapter made of an image telling they're not hosting it anymore T___T

Edited by Oliverfr, 02 November 2015 - 09:31 PM.

[Natureboy]

This is also complicated by the variety of states a series with removed content could be in:  (1) entire series gone because of request from rights holders, (2) specific chapters with DMCA requests, (3) specific languages with rights-holder requests, (4) specific chapters in specific languages with DMCA/rights-holder requests, (5) only available translations in language X missing because licensed and scanlator policy on re-hosting licensed content, (6) specific translated chapters missing because of other scanlator policies, (7) chapters missing in language X because they are direct/unmodified scans of licensed publications (violating Batoto policy), and so on.

 

Grumpy's DMCA posts to Announcements cover case #2. When case #1 happens to all/most titles from a specific publisher, there are also Announcements and discussion. The rest of the cases mean that your mileage may vary. A solution that seems simple for English language releases from a single scanlation team may not work for other languages Batoto hosts or more complicated scanlation+publication histories. Example, what about titles that were once licensed in a specific language/country but those licenses have now expired? Some of these situations do get documented in the text on the comic page, but not every permutation on every title and hosted language.

[svines85]

All I wanted to say that: most of us, the basic readers, will stay unaware the series we follow are canceled, and it would be cool if Batoto, in the process of updating a series as suspended, could have a mechanism of uploading one last fake chapter made of an image telling they're not hosting it anymore T___T

 

It's never gonna happen. This site has been removing content for one reason or another since their inception. This is hardly the first time this topic has come up over title, after title, after title, that has been removed in all the time since around 2010. Nobody in their right mind is going to wave their hands over their head and say "Hey! We're removing the content you came here for!".

 

And aviar, the grocery story analogy is completely comparable, you're just refusing to accept it. I honestly don't know what to say to you anymore.........this site doesn't owe you what you seem to be insisting that it does. 

[OMGWTFBBQPONIES]

Let's not expand this suggestion beyond what was initially suggested, ok? Since it seems to be too complex of a topic to solve right now if we attach similar situations to it.

The suggestion is not about takedown of any individual releases or scanlators' policies but about definite stopping of hosting a certain comic (any rightholder telling batoto to take down all content for the comic permanently, or the comic getting deleted or locked for whatever other reason), in which case there's no possibility of any future releases getting further added and thus people won't ever get a bump on their lists that'd tell them that the comic here is no more.

 And while I'd prefer a more clean solution for notifying users, the 'add fake chapter' thing, if hackish, could be an acceptable solution. It was suggested before as one of possible solutions, but there was no progress with that suggestion since then for unknown-to-me reasons ('side from the obvious "stuff takes time to get done" because of limited manpower).

[aviar]

It's never gonna happen. This site has been removing content for one reason or another since their inception. This is hardly the first time this topic has come up over title, after title, after title, that has been removed in all the time since around 2010. Nobody in their right mind is going to wave their hands over their head and say "Hey! We're removing the content you came here for!".

 

And aviar, the grocery story analogy is completely comparable, you're just refusing to accept it. I honestly don't know what to say to you anymore.........this site doesn't owe you what you seem to be insisting that it does. 

Once again, you are just stating things without me having said them. I never spoke of debt, I spoke of things I would like to see. It's hardly a matter of debt, it's a matter of possible improvement. To the analog, it's not a matter of acceptance, it's a matter of it being off base. A grocery stores requires active effort to index goods, while batoto can do so passively. It's a matter of simply presenting information that is already there, using a subsystem that already exists (search with criteria).

 

This is also complicated by the variety of states a series with removed content could be in:  (1) entire series gone because of request from rights holders, (2) specific chapters with DMCA requests, (3) specific languages with rights-holder requests, (4) specific chapters in specific languages with DMCA/rights-holder requests, (5) only available translations in language X missing because licensed and scanlator policy on re-hosting licensed content, (6) specific translated chapters missing because of other scanlator policies, (7) chapters missing in language X because they are direct/unmodified scans of licensed publications (violating Batoto policy), and so on.

 

Grumpy's DMCA posts to Announcements cover case #2. When case #1 happens to all/most titles from a specific publisher, there are also Announcements and discussion. The rest of the cases mean that your mileage may vary. A solution that seems simple for English language releases from a single scanlation team may not work for other languages Batoto hosts or more complicated scanlation+publication histories. Example, what about titles that were once licensed in a specific language/country but those licenses have now expired? Some of these situations do get documented in the text on the comic page, but not every permutation on every title and hosted language.

It appears I lacked knowledge behind the problem. However, a solution of simply stating what is at the moment not hosted at all for one reason or another, without elucidating the reason itself seems more than sufficient. In the case of it being selective to a language or chapter, I think one will notice it soon enough when they begin reading. It must be admitted that a more comprehensive solution would require further study of the legal conditions that may surround a release.

Edited by aviar, 03 November 2015 - 03:58 AM.

[svines85]

As I told Halo two months ago when they suggested the exact same thing (when not one member of the staff here even bothered to reply).......good luck with your suggestion.

 

I seriously, seriously doubt it's ever going to happen because it's just an awful idea and precedent from management's point of view............I mean, that's exactly why with aaaaall the content that's been removed over the handful of years this site's been operating that it has never been done. Because it's a terrible idea to send people notices about what you're taking away from them. 

 

But whatever, I don't really care one way or the other, I keep up with my stuff well enough on my own  

[Halo]

And while I'd prefer a more clean solution for notifying users, the 'add fake chapter' thing, if hackish, could be an acceptable solution.

Dirty but cheap. This solution requires only permission from admins, all the work can be done (and would be) by users.
But even that deemed unworthy of attention. Can't blame them, users don't seem to care anyway.

[GodricKharg]

Haaa......... I'm going to leave you with one last thing to consider in light of what you seem to keep going back to............when you go to the grocery store, is there a big, detailed, meticulously and exhaustively maintained and compiled listing of aaaaalll the products they're out of posted there?
 
Stop and think about this for just a second and consider it in light of what you're saying you think is something you should expect this site to do for you.
 
My initial response to this thread........well, all my responses for that matter.........  were meant to inform and help. Don't shoot the messenger because he tells you something you don't like  

... Because I just found this thread I'm gonna make a comment here, as you seem to be comparing bato to to "big business". Which it isn't far as I know.

If it was, they'd be finding ways to make more money...

If it was, they wouldn't have advertised on the pages that a membership opus now required to get the most up to date, ok, that might go eigther way.. Imagine a huge sign posted as you enter "you now need a free membership card to enter". Not "good for business".

Batoto, at least way back, and I thought it was still. The scanlators reader site. Following scanlators and rights holders requests re: hosting of manga.

So a way to sort dmca out of results, or find dmca results list is still a good idea, and a search tag filtering that is still a good idea IMO.

[svines85]

Spoiler

... Because I just found this thread I'm gonna make a comment here, as you seem to be comparing bato to to "big business". Which it isn't far as I know.

If it was, they'd be finding ways to make more money...

If it was, they wouldn't have advertised on the pages that a membership opus now required to get the most up to date, ok, that might go eigther way.. Imagine a huge sign posted as you enter "you now need a free membership card to enter". Not "good for business".

Batoto, at least way back, and I thought it was still. The scanlators reader site. Following scanlators and rights holders requests re: hosting of manga.

So a way to sort dmca out of results, or find dmca results list is still a good idea, and a search tag filtering that is still a good idea IMO.

 

https://vatoto.com/forums/topic/24439-new-filter-category-removed-dmcaed-etc/

 

 

Mmmm, yup, good luck on your suggestion.......but seriously, don't hold your breath for anything remotely like this. The subject of removed content has been coming up in one form or another almost since the day this site opened its doors ("why wasn't I told?! you should make announcements!!"). Seriously.....just look, you can find almost this exact same topic coming up going back to early 2011 in the forums. 

 

Big business, little business.........your opinion of that doesn't really enter into this. It's Grumpy's site, and they're pretty darned sharp. They've said it over, and over, and over again........yes, we're the scanlator's friend, but that ends at doing things that harm our ability to run this site.

 

Your/this suggestion? Not just unnecessary from the aspect of this site's primary purpose (it's just a reader site, not an information site), but most likely downright harmful........that's exactly why it's never happened in all the time Batoto's been pulling content for one reason or the other.

 

What you're specifically asking for just doesn't matter to the average person coming here to read, and, from management's point of view of "keeping people coming here" it makes no sense to wave a flag in people's faces about any removal of content.