40 replies to this topic

[svines85]

 

Challenges are certainly not bullying, however him insulting, doing whatever he can to make her feel inferior, humiliate her and such things are. 

 

This exactly......and it's exactly here that Pugnator's reasoning goes horribly awry. A "competition".....of whatever nature........is not an excuse to suspend civility, courtesy, manners..........you know, all those niceties that are supposed to come with being a decent person? Once upon a time, "competition" was used as a means of fostering sportsmanship (look it up if the word's unrecognizable to you) .........not as a way to let people act their worst and be excused for it 

 

Yeah, saying "it's a competition" somehow excuses one person humiliating another..........holding them up to ridicule in front of their peers, abusing them, targeting them........yeah,  that's just a seriously fucked up way of seeing the world  >_<

Edited by svines85, 29 October 2015 - 03:47 AM.

[kavinh]

Isn't this definition of bullying? Dude has something that girl actually believes it belongs to her(tho it doesn't), and he is using the fact that most of her life was built around it so he could get some amusement from her. Tho I'm not gonna deny that it is pretty lighthearted except for certain moments.

 

Comparing this to guy gets beaten half to death cliche is simply wrong. To start off, my favorite recently read comedy manga is Yuria 100 Shiki and good amount of the comedy in it consists of male MC preforming various pro wrestling moves, choke holds , joint locks, etc... On a female MC without holding back,(even the manga itself said it was domestic violence ) usually ending with girl being KO'd but worst thing that happened to her was nosebleed and bit of pain. Ofc that is never nowhere near the level of those "comical" situation where some guys get beaten until their face is basically unrecognizable, but that's only over-exaggeration(you wouldn't take someone being punched to a stratosphere seriously ), not a single character(or at least none that I know of) was actually maimed(having suffered permanent damage) from some beating. Hell, Urusei Yatsura even made a joke about MC being injured, where everyone was shocked when they saw MC wearing bandage, despite never being injured when he was constantly being electroshocked, burned or hit with a desk, huge mallet and so on... The point is, it's just an over-exaggeration and it's mostly done by friends without actually really hurting male MC(dude sure as hell wouldn't willingly be friend with someone who keeps seriously hurting him).

Whereas this manga deals with emotional abuse done by some basically random dude(tho I guess it would be worse if her friend was emotionally abusing her). 

Only thing keeping this manga lighthearted is that female MC has strong will and refuses to be defeated, since that's how she was brought up. If that wasn't the case whole manga would look much more like ch11. I can't talk for others but I find such abuse far more... disgusting than physical abuse which I can even laugh about if done right(I'm talking about those "maimed" MC situation tho "maiming" itself isn't funny part) especially when a genuinely good person is being emotionally abused.

Also I have to say it has nothing to do with double standards(well at least not for me) for example in early chapters of GTO there was this kid who wanted to commit suicide because he couldn't stand being bullied by few girls anymore and that shit was not cool, just the same as it was not cool when girl was taken advantage of and bullied by some girls because she was stupid.

 

Challenges are certainly not bullying, however him insulting, doing whatever he can to make her feel inferior, humiliate her and such things are.

Yeah, she can stop challenging him and lose position as head of Inugami group... It's said that she worked so hard for her whole life solely because she wanted to become great person like her grampa and inherit his position. Becoming the hair of Inugami group was the reason she studied, instead of having fun outside and making friends like other children and why she spent her time studying various martial arts, playing sports and learning whatnot, instead of focusing on one thing she loves and doing that... To stop challenging him would mean that she is throwing all that work and time away...

I don't even want to talk about how miserable the girl is, even without male MC messing with her.

 

Punishment games are certainly common thing(have you ever tried playing poker without buy-in... it sucks) and saying he is quite generous is no exaggeration but if she doesn't comply with dudes punishment for her, naturally he won't be give her another chance to win back her position, so I don't think it's that she would lose more pride from running away from punishment, it's more about her really wanting to become hair of Inugami group again. 

 

I dislike the abuse(what I see as abuse) girl is getting, mostly because this manga is comedy and doesn't deal with abuse at all. If this was psychological manga(without any comedy elements) that focuses on how that abuse affects female MC and why male MC is acting this way, I would probably love the fck out of it. But ofc this is all just my opinion. 

 

 

depends on how you look at it the alternative was she could've just thrown away her inheritance and ignored him. The abuse aspect is also overblown by people in this thread, making someone wear skimpy/embarassing outfits is closer to a punishment game then abuse.

 

It's pretty clear him puting her down is a reflection of his interest in her since it's shown he acknowledges her so i don't think its as malicious as you make it out but more of a granted rude way to poke fun at her. From what we've seen so far it seems like he grew up in an orphanage so i think its normal to assume he lacks social skills.

[toc14]

depends on how you look at it the alternative was she could've just thrown away her inheritance and ignored him. The abuse aspect is also overblown by people in this thread, making someone wear skimpy/embarassing outfits is closer to a punishment game then abuse.

 

It's pretty clear him puting her down is a reflection of his interest in her since it's shown he acknowledges her so i don't think its as malicious as you make it out but more of a granted rude way to poke fun at her. From what we've seen so far it seems like he grew up in an orphanage so i think its normal to assume he lacks social skills.

Like I said, this manga doesn't deal with abuse, it's definitely there but the author isn't doing anything with it(at least for now). Closest thing to dealing with abuse was ch. 11  where an optimistic girl who always did her best ended up depressed and gave up. At that point she chose to throw away her inheritance(like people suggested she should do if she's bothered with "abuse") just so she wouldn't end up any more miserable but that was resolved by slap from fox girl and and some speech that honestly doesn't really make much sense(since fox girl thinks Inugami is miserable because of losing and not because of that what comes after she loses against Sarutobi).

Yes, abuse in this manga is somewhat overblown by some people but it's the same thing with people who say that's just a punishment game after they read ch. 11.

 

It's certainly possibility that he is unintentionally hurting her because he doesn't know any better(now that's something I would like to read about) tho I think he is doing it to "train" her for becoming heir of Inugami family.

 

Also, fck grampa Inugami...   

          

Edited by toc14, 14 December 2015 - 10:30 PM.

[Thrustday]

Are people actually crying about harassment and 'muh grils r all speshul and need proteckshun' in a comic that outright states that Inugami is the strongest most intelligent girl ever at every single chance it gets? I mean Christ, really?

 

The comic is about how a Mary Sue who has everything handed to her on a Silver Platter has to actually go through some adversity for once in her life, reflect on that adversity and grow into a better person as a result. Now, whether or not the comic is well written is another story altogether. I personally think the whole 'when Mary Sue met Gary Stu' angle this series has going for it is the least bearable aspect of it, but once you get over that it's honestly not that bad; the art's great, the characters are developing nicely, and the plot has enough twists and turns to keep it relatively interesting, perfect MCs aside.

 

If the fact that a 'perfect' girl isn't being treated as a goddess incarnate makes you feel insecure or ruins your ability to self-insert, then maybe, just maybe, this isn't the comic for you.

[svines85]

Spoiler

Are people actually crying about harassment and 'muh grils r all speshul and need proteckshun' in a comic that outright states that Inugami is the strongest most intelligent girl ever at every single chance it gets? I mean Christ, really?

 

The comic is about how a Mary Sue who has everything handed to her on a Silver Platter has to actually go through some adversity for once in her life, reflect on that adversity and grow into a better person as a result. Now, whether or not the comic is well written is another story altogether. I personally think the whole 'when Mary Sue met Gary Stu' angle this series has going for it is the least bearable aspect of it, but once you get over that it's honestly not that bad; the art's great, the characters are developing nicely, and the plot has enough twists and turns to keep it relatively interesting, perfect MCs aside.

 

If the fact that a 'perfect' girl isn't being treated as a goddess incarnate makes you feel insecure or ruins your ability to self-insert, then maybe, just maybe, this isn't the comic for you.

 

So you're saying it's ok to target people for harassment and bullying if they're well off in some way, right?

 

Wow, that's one resentful, messed up outlook you've got going there, partner. You'll make a great spouse abuser some day (if you're not already one)  

Edited by svines85, 25 December 2015 - 09:56 PM.

[user139530g]

So you're saying it's ok to target people for harassment and bullying if they're well off in some way, right?

 

Wow, that's one resentful, messed up outlook you've got going there, partner. You'll make a great spouse abuser some day (if you're not already one)  

 

What "harassment and bullying"? Tsubake consented to every contest.

[svines85]

 

What "harassment and bullying"? Tsubake consented to every contest.

 

There you go, way to rationalize it all away.

 

"Well, she's happy with him (even though he beats the crap out of her every-other weekend)"

 

"She shouldn't have led him on!"

 

"Why do you take everything so seriously? It was just a joke!"

 

"That's just kids being kids. It's how they have fun"

 

"This is about a Mary Sue who has everything handed to her on a silver platter..."

 

"She agreed to it all..."

 

 

You see where you're coming in on this? That's called "victim blaming", and it's a great way for shallow, self-centered and insensitive people to rationalize away the suffering of others.

 

Bravo to you, you're a real prince among men  

[toc14]

Are people actually crying about harassment and 'muh grils r all speshul and need proteckshun' in a comic that outright states that Inugami is the strongest most intelligent girl ever at every single chance it gets? I mean Christ, really?

 

The comic is about how a Mary Sue who has everything handed to her on a Silver Platter has to actually go through some adversity for once in her life, reflect on that adversity and grow into a better person as a result. Now, whether or not the comic is well written is another story altogether. I personally think the whole 'when Mary Sue met Gary Stu' angle this series has going for it is the least bearable aspect of it, but once you get over that it's honestly not that bad; the art's great, the characters are developing nicely, and the plot has enough twists and turns to keep it relatively interesting, perfect MCs aside.

 

If the fact that a 'perfect' girl isn't being treated as a goddess incarnate makes you feel insecure or ruins your ability to self-insert, then maybe, just maybe, this isn't the comic for you.

 

To start off, nobody is crying about harassment. what you are doing in your first sentence is crying, rest of us are having a discussion.

 

Does she really have everything handed to her on a silver platter? She worked hard since she was little kid and grampa gave successorship to Sarutobi so she didn't even receive position is family business, even if she won against Sarutobi and became successor it would mean she had to work and prove herself therefore it wouldn't have been handed on a silver platter.

It's a matter of personal taste, I dislike this manga but I wouldn't say its bad, more like not good enough. I already said some things that I would personally like to see and some things that bother me. 

 

I don't have the slightest idea how that would make me feel insecure but thank you for advice. 

[user139530g]

There you go, way to rationalize it all away.

 

You see where you're coming in on this? That's called "victim blaming", and it's a great way for shallow, self-centered and insensitive people to rationalize away the suffering of others.

 

Bravo to you, you're a real prince among men  

 

Yes... it is only rational to rationalize away something that is complete bullshit. My statement is not equivalent to the quotes you manufactured and at every turn in the manga there is consent. I fear that the only victim here is you, princess 

[svines85]

Yes... it is only rational to rationalize away something that is complete bullshit. My statement is not equivalent to the quotes you manufactured and at every turn in the manga there is consent. I fear that the only victim here is you, princess 

 

Right, sure man.

 

That's ok, I absolutely knew that anyone who had expressed the viewpoint you had would never agree with someone pointing out just how insensitive and shallow they were being....... just as I seriously doubt you have the character tools to wonder, if even for a moment, that it could be you that's wrong here. 

Edited by svines85, 27 December 2015 - 09:23 AM.

[user139530g]

Right, sure man.

 

That's ok, I absolutely knew that anyone who had expressed the viewpoint you had would never agree with someone pointing out just how insensitive and shallow they were being....... just as I seriously doubt you have the character tools to wonder, if even for a moment, that it could be you that's wrong here. 

 

You may be deluded, but what you wrote is quite reusable. Right back at you.

 

[svines85]

You may be deluded, but what you wrote is quite reusable. Right back at you.

 

Haha!

 

Oh, I know I've got the tools........you see, it's really easy to tell the difference between people that are,  at the least, able to see things from the point of view of others..... and those who completely are not.  

 

You know, like when someone says something asinine like "well, she consented to everything (after being manipulated and bullied into it) so that makes everything a-okay!"  and then adamantly sticks to it even when others are telling them they're being insensitive and short-sighted  

[SpiderOnSA]

I haven't enjoyed much of this... just boring.

[Thrustday]

Spoiler

To start off, nobody is crying about harassment. what you are doing in your first sentence is crying, rest of us are having a discussion.

 

Does she really have everything handed to her on a silver platter? She worked hard since she was little kid and grampa gave successorship to Sarutobi so she didn't even receive position is family business, even if she won against Sarutobi and became successor it would mean she had to work and prove herself therefore it wouldn't have been handed on a silver platter.

It's a matter of personal taste, I dislike this manga but I wouldn't say its bad, more like not good enough. I already said some things that I would personally like to see and some things that bother me. 

 

I don't have the slightest idea how that would make me feel insecure but thank you for advice. 

 

That's a very political way of saying you're crying about harassment. Yeah, I was probably crying too, but don't act like that makes your own whining more justified.

 

No, Inugami has never worked for anything, and if she has done then it's never been shown to us; she was born into the most powerful family in japan, is shown at multiple times to have excelled athletically and academically far beyond anyone in her class, received personal education the likes of which most people can only dream about and is loved by literally everyone who she comes into contact with. Fuck, even Sarutobi has shown signs that he secretly likes her too. The only time she's ever really worked at anything was where Sarutobi was concerned, and every time she loses to him the entire fucking school shows up to comfort her. If that's not a Mary Sue who's had everything handed to her on a silver platter I don't know what is. Compared to Sarutobi Who's family was broken to the point where he was thrown into poverty, it's even more evident that Inugami has always had it all. In fact, pull back a little; the fact that the only challenge Inugami has ever seemed to face is beating Sarutobi shows how much of a Sue she is.

The last bit you mentioned doesn't have anything to do with how hard she worked in the past, no matter how you slice it; What it shows us is that Inugami is Naive, and despite being ms. perfect at everything a child could be perfect at, is still a child at the end of the day, so she has to grow. That's not a question of hard work, that's a question of maturity.

 

If you don't get it, then that comment probably doesn't apply to you. remember that we aren't the only two people in this thread. It's why there's an 'if' in front of the statement. Svines is a better example of someone who's upset that their Mary Sue is actually facing adversity. speaking of which;

 

Spoiler

So you're saying it's ok to target people for harassment and bullying if they're well off in some way, right?

 

Wow, that's one resentful, messed up outlook you've got going there, partner. You'll make a great spouse abuser some day (if you're not already one)  

 

shouldn't you be working on your shift in the salt factory?

Edited by Thrustday, 01 January 2016 - 11:30 AM.

[ratalada]

There you go, way to rationalize it all away.

 

"Well, she's happy with him (even though he beats the crap out of her every-other weekend)"

 

"She shouldn't have led him on!"

 

"Why do you take everything so seriously? It was just a joke!"

 

"That's just kids being kids. It's how they have fun"

 

"This is about a Mary Sue who has everything handed to her on a silver platter..."

 

"She agreed to it all..."

 

 

You see where you're coming in on this? That's called "victim blaming", and it's a great way for shallow, self-centered and insensitive people to rationalize away the suffering of others.

 

Bravo to you, you're a real prince among men  

 

>"That's just kids being kids. It's how they have fun"

that has nothing to do with victim blaming, that phrase without context can be used for anything, even kindergarden kids playing in the mud.

 

>"She shouldn't have led him on!"

this phrase is completely irrelevant to the situations presented on the manga.

 

>"Well, she's happy with him (even though he beats the crap out of her every-other weekend)"

nobody said she's happy with it, but she deals with it because her "hardships" are worth the reward if she wins (echii shit and some verbal abuse for a chance at gaining the successor rights to the strongest financial empire in Japan), Dude, she isn't getting her fingers chopped and getting a huge debt for losing a lottery game like some gambler did, lol.

 

>"Why do you take everything so seriously? It was just a joke!"

its more about people blowing shit out of proportion for the sake of being offended.

 

>"This is about a Mary Sue who has everything handed to her on a silver platter..."

this is the only thing I think we both can agree with this isn't about. inugami, even if she's rich and whatever, she worked hard to be deserving of the succesor rights (regardless if she actually is or not). This is about 2 outstanding individuals with different world views clashing.

 

>"She agreed to it all..."

what's the problem with this? are you saying consent is of no importance? specially when both agreed to risk something?

 

sry m8, but this victim blaming concept is bullshit. "the victim" has responsability or guilt on what happens to himself/herself, specially if this person knows what is being exposed to and agreed to it without any cohersion.

Edited by ratalada, 01 January 2016 - 03:41 PM.

[kumakhan]

Batoto = Tumblr #2016confirmed

[svines85]

 

 

shouldn't you be working on your shift in the salt factory?

 

Heh.....I have no idea what that dig is supposed to mean

 

A shame, I mean I know it's supposed to be a personal dig at me and all.......but yeah, no clue where it's supposed to actually hit me . Oh well.

 

I stand by my comment to you without the slightest hesitation. Your comment in post #24 boils down to no more than "she's led a privileged life up until now so it's okay for her to get whatever she gets".

 

Yeah, that's a nasty, mean-spirited outlook you're expressing there, buddy. That's not me being weak or overly "sensitive", that's just me telling you that a good part of the world is going to (or at least should) see that kind of sentiment as one that'd come from someone who's a total, mean-spirited, insensitive  dick. You might want to think about that , but I doubt you will 

 

Spoiler

>"That's just kids being kids. It's how they have fun"

that has nothing to do with victim blaming, that phrase without context can be used for anything, even kindergarden kids playing in the mud.

 

>"She shouldn't have led him on!"

this phrase is completely irrelevant to the situations presented on the manga.

 

>"Well, she's happy with him (even though he beats the crap out of her every-other weekend)"

nobody said she's happy with it, but she deals with it because her "hardships" are worth the reward if she wins (echii shit and some verbal abuse for a chance at gaining the successor rights to the strongest financial empire in Japan), Dude, she isn't getting her fingers chopped and getting a huge debt for losing a lottery game like some gambler did, lol.

 

>"Why do you take everything so seriously? It was just a joke!"

its more about people blowing shit out of proportion for the sake of being offended.

 

>"This is about a Mary Sue who has everything handed to her on a silver platter..."

this is the only thing I think we both can agree with this isn't about. inugami, even if she's rich and whatever, she worked hard to be deserving of the succesor rights (regardless if she actually is or not). This is about 2 outstanding individuals with different world views clashing.

 

>"She agreed to it all..."

what's the problem with this? are you saying consent is of no importance? specially when both agreed to risk something?

 

sry m8, but this victim blaming concept is bullshit. "the victim" has responsability or guilt on what happens to himself/herself, specially if this person knows what is being exposed to and agreed to it without any cohersion.

 

No, you're wrong, you're essentially describing the behavior of animals.........every "man" for himself without the slightest concern for others or  "might makes right".....and that ain't how people are supposed to be in a civilized, advanced setting.

 

Good luck to you if you're ever to find yourself as the one on the receiving end of poor, unfair treatment and looking around for someone to help you out of the goodness their hearts  

[toc14]

That's a very political way of saying you're crying about harassment. Yeah, I was probably crying too, but don't act like that makes your own whining more justified.

 

No, Inugami has never worked for anything, and if she has done then it's never been shown to us; she was born into the most powerful family in japan, is shown at multiple times to have excelled athletically and academically far beyond anyone in her class, received personal education the likes of which most people can only dream about and is loved by literally everyone who she comes into contact with. Fuck, even Sarutobi has shown signs that he secretly likes her too. The only time she's ever really worked at anything was where Sarutobi was concerned, and every time she loses to him the entire fucking school shows up to comfort her. If that's not a Mary Sue who's had everything handed to her on a silver platter I don't know what is. Compared to Sarutobi Who's family was broken to the point where he was thrown into poverty, it's even more evident that Inugami has always had it all. In fact, pull back a little; the fact that the only challenge Inugami has ever seemed to face is beating Sarutobi shows how much of a Sue she is.

The last bit you mentioned doesn't have anything to do with how hard she worked in the past, no matter how you slice it; What it shows us is that Inugami is Naive, and despite being ms. perfect at everything a child could be perfect at, is still a child at the end of the day, so she has to grow. That's not a question of hard work, that's a question of maturity.

 

If you don't get it, then that comment probably doesn't apply to you. remember that we aren't the only two people in this thread. It's why there's an 'if' in front of the statement. Svines is a better example of someone who's upset that their Mary Sue is actually facing adversity. 

 

 

Spoiler

 

 

Personally I would call someone who spends his free time on studying since kindergarten a hard worker, same with someone who plays multiple sports and martial arts, especially when the goal of all that is to become better.  

I don't remember reading that she had any special education that her peers couldn't get and while her being popular is true, I don't see how that maters since anyone who is smart, athletic and has a good personality will be liked by almost everyone(talking about school here), it's not like people only like her because of her family(Look at the blonde shorty girl, she is nowhere near Tsubakis level of popularity despite being in 2nd greatest family). Nobody was arguing that she isn't a huge Marry Sue, but I have to disagree with your statement that she always "had it all". Does she even have a single real friend except her maid? Does she have any hobby( something unrelated to becoming worthy successor of Inugami family)? Sure she has money but does she actually use it at all? She lives under strict house rules, so she isn't even allowed to wear what she want's in her own home, her parents are dead. Her dream of becoming grate successor of Inugami family is being taken away(from her point of view). You get my point. Her life is in fact somewhat pitiful.  

 

By "last bit" do you mean about proving herself against Sarutobi to gain successorship? If so than I'm not sure if you know the meaning of "on silver platter". As you already said, beating Sarutobi is challenging for Tsubaki so, for her to overcome such a strong opponent she needs to put significant amount of effort into it while "on a silver platter" means something is done without effort or with very little effort.

 

My bad, I should have said "I don't know how that would make anyone insecure"

[ratalada]

No, you're wrong, you're essentially describing the behavior of animals.........every "man" for himself without the slightest concern for others or  "might makes right".....and that ain't how people are supposed to be in a civilized, advanced setting.

 

Good luck to you if you're ever to find yourself as the one on the receiving end of poor, unfair treatment and looking around for someone to help you out of the goodness their hearts  

 

Stop missenterpreting what others say.

 

"every man for himself" has nothing to do with this, nor "might makes right". A person has to own his/her actions. and the treatment inugami is getting is part of a mutual agreedment and small shit compared to what she gets if she wins, that's why she copes with it and that's her own choice, she knows well what she's getting into, she's definitely not a victim.

 

also, you didn't address any of the things I said when quoting all the unrelated phrases you dropped in your last post, gee I wonder why.

[svines85]

Stop missenterpreting what others say.

Spoiler

"every man for himself" has nothing to do with this, nor "might makes right". A person has to own his/her actions. and the treatment inugami is getting is part of a mutual agreedment and small shit compared to what she gets if she wins, that's why she copes with it and that's her own choice, she knows well what she's getting into, she's definitely not a victim.

 

also, you didn't address any of the things I said when quoting all the unrelated phrases you dropped in your last post, gee I wonder why.

 

No, I'm not misinterpreting nary a God damned thing you said buddy. You can play all the fucking word games you want if it helps you get to sleep at night, but "the victim is responsible for what happens" is "every man for himself" to a fucking T. In this context it's just one more expression of victim blaming pure and simple.

 

I addressed your post completely. There's no reason to address something point by point that's been covered by one blanket statement. Every one of your asinine rebuttals is nothing more than an attempt to rationalize away any need to feel the most basics of human compassion and empathy for one's fellow man. 

 

Don't try to play your word games with me man, you ain't nearly good enough.