40 replies to this topic

[Turin]

7 chapters of this girl being bullied, sexually harassed and humiliated. I'm probably going to drop with because the boy is such a douche to the protagonist each chapter, but this better not be building towards romance. I feel like thats the only place the author can take this, unless he simply turns this into an H-manga (the boy would fit right in).

 

Also talk about slow going. 7 chapters of the protagonist being continually beaten down. Either throw in some other wrinkles/side plots or get to the point. These 7 chapters could have been condensed to 3 chapters easily. Also can we have an adult or her friend step in. My goodness I wouldn't have stood for this if I was the protagonist. She's just playing into his hands each chapter.

 

I'm probably done this manga is too annoying.

[user139530g]

Story started to develop in chapter 6-7.  Don't drop unless u r a skrub

[bastek66]

There is shitload of manga where MC is pathetic loser dominated by women. It's nice to have a little change sometimes.

[Mangagaunt]

There is shitload of manga where MC is pathetic loser dominated by women. It's nice to have a little change sometimes.

 

I disagree. Sure it's not entertaining to have an MC dominated, but that doesn't mean reversing the roles(or simply switching them up) is any better. There is still domination. 

[user139530g]

I disagree. Sure it's not entertaining to have an MC dominated, but that doesn't mean reversing the roles(or simply switching them up) is any better. There is still domination. 

 

It is better, because the pathetic male MC trope is far more widespread, and therefore more toxic.

 

The femdom'd MC isn't bad because it's inherently unentertaining or cringeworthy, but because there is too much of it. Too much exposure to a trope and it becomes repetitive and boring.

[himesaminako]

It's fine if you want to reverse the Male MC being dominated trope, but I haven't seen a male MC dominated trope to this extent. The way it's done in this manga is slightly uncomfortable to me, regardless of the gender. He's absolutely abusing his power and is being a douche about it, going overboard with the perverted intentions (everytime) which are just pretty unnecessary and, honestly, are awkward to read. I'm alright with the premise but sometimes it's just a bit uncomfortable.

Edited by himesaminako, 02 February 2015 - 09:34 AM.

[user139530g]

Your penis was made to spread the patriarchy. Use it as such.

[svines85]

7 chapters of this girl being bullied, sexually harassed and humiliated. I'm probably going to drop with because the boy is such a douche to the protagonist each chapter...

 

 

It's fine if you want to reverse the Male MC being dominated trope, but I haven't seen a male MC dominated trope to this extent. The way it's done in this manga is slightly uncomfortable to me, regardless of the gender...

 

You know, I've checked out this title at least a few times as I've seen it mentioned, and each time passed on even putting into my "maybe later" list for exactly the reasons being discussed here. I mean, just reading the summary gives me the impression of a story where the express purpose is to show a girl on a pedestal being knocked off it and "taken down a peg or two". Sorry, the theme itself just sounds ugly, and judging by a lot of this thread, my impression from the summary wasn't wrong.

 

As far as the "reverse trope" view........well, I'll just say that most of the time that theme (the tsundere female "bullying" the male lead) isn't being presented in altogether "serious" manner, often times it's outright being shown in a comedic light......and it very much sounds like this one isn't. Big difference there.

[iAmNEJi]

It's fine if you want to reverse the Male MC being dominated trope, but I haven't seen a male MC dominated trope to this extent. The way it's done in this manga is slightly uncomfortable to me, regardless of the gender. He's absolutely abusing his power and is being a douche about it, going overboard with the perverted intentions (everytime) which are just pretty unnecessary and, honestly, are awkward to read. I'm alright with the premise but sometimes it's just a bit uncomfortable.

Agreed, I hope the author doesn't try to raise flags that she'll have any interest with him. He's an asshole and this way of doing a dominating MC is totally off because he total humiliates her and makes her do some of the most ridiculous things. I hope she puts an end to all the over abuse of his power by taking back the heir-ship.

[easilyoffended]

My impression of the MC is that his power play/bullying is a only paper thin. I would agree with the OP otherwise, because the foreground evidence suggests exactly as the OP said. Not sure why I think that way (its a subconscious decision) but I'll try to list some things:
1) Male MC has some painful past/grudge
2) Female MC is the one that is actually enjoying her life (she has friends, she laughs, she gets embarrassed)
3) Male MC hasn't actually said or done anything truly bad; he could do much worse
4) I'm thinking they have met when they were very young, and their previous meeting relates to (1)
5) I'm thinking the Grandad has some sort of plan in mind

The full character/backstory/development of the Male MC hasn't been shown yet. If the male MC really is just a 'cool' shallow jackass, then the readers are gonna resist it and of course their gonna hate him. Up to now the chapters were developing the Female MC's character and soon/eventually the Male MC will be developed, and we will see why the Male MC is the way he is. Pieces of info have been given about the Male MC's goal readying us for the explaination. Alternatively the explaination may be delayed and instead we might see some sort of weakness, or we will see him get more embarrassed about one of the punishment games than she is, or he will say something seemingly 'out of character' about their past. Maybe I'm overestimating the author. I'm also only reading the chapters as they came out and not in bulk so I'm just taking his attitude and the whole story lightly.

EDIT: Put it this way, what do you think he would do if she were to just suddenly start crying?
My impression is that he would be shocked, he would feel guilty but wouldn't show it and he would say some sort of hard boiled line that would reignite her efforts and she will think 'I will get him next time'. Later on the Grandad would say something about how he could have 'let it end then and there' and he will say something like 'she isn't the one I want to destroy' ( or similarly corny line)
If you think he would laugh and leave her then yeah, your impression of the MC is ruined and it will be hard to see anything potential in him, best you leave the manga until much much later, or wait for the comments to get excited. I waited for the comments to change for 'Rise of the Shield Hero' before starting to read it

Edited by easilyoffended, 07 February 2015 - 07:44 PM.

[himesaminako]

Agreed, I hope the author doesn't try to raise flags that she'll have any interest with him. He's an asshole and this way of doing a dominating MC is totally off because he total humiliates her and makes her do some of the most ridiculous things. I hope she puts an end to all the over abuse of his power by taking back the heir-ship.

 

Yeah, I really hope the author doesn't try to make this a romance somehow (despite me hoping for a romance when I came her since I read their previous work). It'd be super odd if they fall for each other or something, agh.

[Enharmonics]

You know, I've checked out this title at least a few times as I've seen it mentioned, and each time passed on even putting into my "maybe later" list for exactly the reasons being discussed here. I mean, just reading the summary gives me the impression of a story where the express purpose is to show a girl on a pedestal being knocked off it and "taken down a peg or two". Sorry, the theme itself just sounds ugly, and judging by a lot of this thread, my impression from the summary wasn't wrong.

 

As far as the "reverse trope" view........well, I'll just say that most of the time that theme (the tsundere female "bullying" the male lead) isn't being presented in altogether "serious" manner, often times it's outright being shown in a comedic light......and it very much sounds like this one isn't. Big difference there.

 

Your reasoning is inherently flawed in that it makes the following 2 fallacious presuppositions:

 

1.) That female-on-male abuse is, relative to the contrast of male-on-female abuse, inherently more conducive to being presented as "comedic". This is the type of collective-consciousness reasoning that leads to the recurring "funny"/"gag" scenes in manga wherein male MCs or other characters are beaten (often to a bloody pulp) or otherwise brutally maimed by female characters in manga being perceived as "okay" or "just a joke".

 

This latter point is especially poignant because if we look at the way modern culture works, this concept is not applicable to females at all; today, anyone who so much as jokes about striking a woman period (whether in self-defense or otherwise) is immediately labeled a misogynist, psychopath, insert-label-here, and God help anyone who makes a joke about rape. This is all in spite of the fact that arbitrarily speaking, a man being slammed against a wall/beaten senseless/threatened with a deadly weapon by a woman who exhibits chronic pathological behavior of this kind is no less serious, yet is somehow a recurring theme in manga and portrayed as "funny".

 

2.) That because "most of the time", female characters bullying male leads is presented in a "comedic" manner and is not taken to what is (in your opinion) an excessive degree, it is suddenly made "okay". Not only that, you yourself present the caveat that it's "most of the time", no doubt with the intent to use the doctrine of uncertainty to protect yourself in case someone walks in and tears down your argument by presenting examples of female-on-male MC bullying of a degree commensurate to the one we address here.

 

This latter point also naturally leads to the following corollary: you admit that it's most of the time that it's presented in a comedic manner, hence we can logically conclude that you are aware that some of the time (or sometimes, to use more plain English), it's not intended comically, and is instead quite serious (examples of such instances can be provided if necessary).

 

So, the question we are led to is, would the people who complain about this manga's "excessive" male-on-female bullying complain even half as vitriolically against female-on-male MC bullying of commensurate gravity?

 

It is possible to reach a conclusion on this matter without providing examples of the comment sections of such manga (though again, they can be provided if necessary): the answer is "no". Speaking in terms of probability, the collective of people who complain about depictions of male-on-female "bullying" (not just in manga, but in all media) is most likely to be comprised of three major demographics:

 

• a.) Women
• b.) "White Knight" men
• c.) Feminists or other so-called "Social Justice Warriors [SJW]" (of both genders)

 

Group A is easy enough to explain through the simple concept of vested interest - the groups most likely to complain about any given circumstances or paradigms are the groups to whom those circumstances and paradigms are most likely to prove deleterious in some way; in this case, since the subject at hand is male-on-female "bullying", naturally females are the most likely to complain

 

Group B is also simple to understand; just about everyone is familiar with what is known in modern colloquialisms as the "white knight". This is that group of men that think that by playing the part of supplicants and bending over backwards to view any political or personal act by a man as a personal attack on the female gender as a whole, they will somehow ingratiate themselves to the same and therefore be more attractive to them. On the surface it seems like they're caring/sensitive/honest people with a solid moral compass, but at the end of the day it's all about increasing their percentile chance for personal gain, much like just about everything else people do

 

Group C also has a vested interest, though in contrast with group (a) there exists a sociopolitical aspect to their motive in addition to the possible personal interest derived from being a member of the "offended party" (the female gender)

 

In conclusion, you are wrong about there being a "big difference" between the two different types of "abuse" at hand (female-on-male vs male-on-female). They are in fact the same kind of situation; the difference isn't in whether it's portrayed "comically" or not, but in

 

• your willingness to perceive "most" female-on-male abuse as being portrayed "comically" and the subconsciously held belief that if it is portrayed "comically" it's "okay", and
• your predilection for perceiving male-on-female abuse as being portrayed "seriously" relative to the first point, and the subconsciously held belief that male-on-female abuse is more easily made "serious"

With these two things being a result of the influence of culture on your definition of what's "okay" and what's not in terms of inter-gender relationships and interactions.

 

 

[EDITED to remove weird smileys that the site inserted on its own, possibly due to the syntax of my text? Never seen a site do that before]

Edited by Enharmonics, 12 March 2015 - 04:05 PM.

[svines85]

Your reasoning is inherently flawed

Spoiler

in that it makes the following 2 fallacious presuppositions:

 

1.) That female-on-male abuse is, relative to the contrast of male-on-female abuse, inherently more conducive to being presented as "comedic". This is the type of collective-consciousness reasoning that leads to the recurring "funny"/"gag" scenes in manga wherein male MCs or other characters are beaten (often to a bloody pulp) or otherwise brutally maimed by female characters in manga being perceived as "okay" or "just a joke".

 

This latter point is especially poignant because if we look at the way modern culture works, this concept is not applicable to females at all; today, anyone who so much as jokes about striking a woman period (whether in self-defense or otherwise) is immediately labeled a misogynist, psychopath, insert-label-here, and God help anyone who makes a joke about rape. This is all in spite of the fact that arbitrarily speaking, a man being slammed against a wall/beaten senseless/threatened with a deadly weapon by a woman who exhibits chronic pathological behavior of this kind is no less serious, yet is somehow a recurring theme in manga and portrayed as "funny".

 

2.) That because "most of the time", female characters bullying male leads is presented in a "comedic" manner and is not taken to what is (in your opinion) an excessive degree, it is suddenly made "okay". Not only that, you yourself present the caveat that it's "most of the time", no doubt with the intent to use the doctrine of uncertainty to protect yourself in case someone walks in and tears down your argument by presenting examples of female-on-male MC bullying of a degree commensurate to the one we address here.

 

This latter point also naturally leads to the following corollary: you admit that it's most of the time that it's presented in a comedic manner, hence we can logically conclude that you are aware that some of the time (or sometimes, to use more plain English), it's not intended comically, and is instead quite serious (examples of such instances can be provided if necessary).

 

So, the question we are led to is, would the people who complain about this manga's "excessive" male-on-female bullying complain even half as vitriolically against female-on-male MC bullying of commensurate gravity?

 

It is possible to reach a conclusion on this matter without providing examples of the comment sections of such manga (though again, they can be provided if necessary): the answer is "no". Speaking in terms of probability, the collective of people who complain about depictions of male-on-female "bullying" (not just in manga, but in all media) is most likely to be comprised of three major demographics:

 

• a.) Women
• b.) "White Knight" men
• c.) Feminists or other so-called "Social Justice Warriors [SJW]" (of both genders)

 

Group A is easy enough to explain through the simple concept of vested interest - the groups most likely to complain about any given circumstances or paradigms are the groups to whom those circumstances and paradigms are most likely to prove deleterious in some way; in this case, since the subject at hand is male-on-female "bullying", naturally females are the most likely to complain

 

Group B is also simple to understand; just about everyone is familiar with what is known in modern colloquialisms as the "white knight". This is that group of men that think that by playing the part of supplicants and bending over backwards to view any political or personal act by a man as a personal attack on the female gender as a whole, they will somehow ingratiate themselves to the same and therefore be more attractive to them. On the surface it seems like they're caring/sensitive/honest people with a solid moral compass, but at the end of the day it's all about increasing their percentile chance for personal gain, much like just about everything else people do

 

Group C also has a vested interest, though in contrast with group (a) there exists a sociopolitical aspect to their motive in addition to the possible personal interest derived from being a member of the "offended party" (the female gender)

 

In conclusion, you are wrong about there being a "big difference" between the two different types of "abuse" at hand (female-on-male vs male-on-female). They are in fact the same kind of situation; the difference isn't in whether it's portrayed "comically" or not, but in

 

• your willingness to perceive "most" female-on-male abuse as being portrayed "comically" and the subconsciously held belief that if it is portrayed "comically" it's "okay", and
• your predilection for perceiving male-on-female abuse as being portrayed "seriously" relative to the first point, and the subconsciously held belief that male-on-female abuse is more easily made "serious"

With these two things being a result of the influence of culture on your definition of what's "okay" and what's not in terms of inter-gender relationships and interactions.

 

 

[EDITED to remove weird smileys that the site inserted on its own, possibly due to the syntax of my text? Never seen a site do that before]

 

Oh my God, could you possibly come off as any more pompous? This is just a discussion forum, friend, not a college presentation. Take it down a notch or two.

 

My reasoning isn't "inherently flawed" because it's just a freaking opinion. Jesus H, blow things out of proportion much? Take things out of context much?  O_o

[MangaisGood]

Thank you to both Svines85 and Enharmonics for both putting forward lucid ideas in Good English.

I must say though, who is to say how well thought out an argument is allowed to be in a discussion forum? There should be no ceiling on the quality of writing when it comes to making a point clearly.

We really don't want to see all discussions at the lowest common denominator level do we? Plenty of examples of that *ahem*barroner*ahem* in other areas of this site.

[svines85]

I must say though, who is to say how well thought out an argument is allowed to be in a discussion forum? There should be no ceiling on the quality of writing when it comes to making a point clearly.

 

In theory, I agree with you completely  

Edited by svines85, 19 May 2015 - 09:13 PM.

[Sathus]

Oh my God, could you possibly come off as any more pompous? This is just a discussion forum, friend, not a college presentation. Take it down a notch or two.

 

My reasoning isn't "inherently flawed" because it's just a freaking opinion. Jesus H, blow things out of proportion much? Take things out of context much?  O_o

Way to completely deflect and misrepresent an argument so you wouldn't have to address it. "Oh god guys look at this tryhard lol," aren't you the pompous one? Certainly there may not be such a thing as a "wrong opinion," but the reasoning one must have to form opinions is something that can very well be misinformed, flawed, skewed, or just flat out wrong. Get over yourself.

That aside, I feel as if those complaining about the degree of severity to which the male MC treats his female counterpart are the ones blowing things out of proportion. This isn't a social commentary, this isn't a grimdark power trip with an author surrogate, this is just a comedy manga. Potentially a romcom. If it isn't your cup of tea, suit yourself. If you have beef with it, I might personally question your ability to think rationally if your reasoning is that displayed above but you're perfectly welcome to. However, just realize that this isn't something that hasn't been done before and that you're grossly exaggerating the qualities you perceive it to have.

[svines85]

Spoiler

Way to completely deflect and misrepresent an argument so you wouldn't have to address it. "Oh god guys look at this tryhard lol," aren't you the pompous one? Certainly there may not be such a thing as a "wrong opinion," but the reasoning one must have to form opinions is something that can very well be misinformed, flawed, skewed, or just flat out wrong. Get over yourself.

That aside, I feel as if those complaining about the degree of severity to which the male MC treats his female counterpart are the ones blowing things out of proportion. This isn't a social commentary, this isn't a grimdark power trip with an author surrogate, this is just a comedy manga. Potentially a romcom. If it isn't your cup of tea, suit yourself. If you have beef with it, I might personally question your ability to think rationally if your reasoning is that displayed above but you're perfectly welcome to. However, just realize that this isn't something that hasn't been done before and that you're grossly exaggerating the qualities you perceive it to have.

 

No, I don't see it that way at all.

 

[toc14]

The problem with this manga is that it is far too serious about its abuse, it's like watching some small guy in your classroom constantly being bullied.

 

Male MC(I'm gonna call him because alot of people consider him MC tho he is antagonist) is constantly mocking female MC by calling a loser or pathetic for losing her successorship, all he is doing with that is making her feel inferior even in a case that he is training her to become better, insulting her almost every time they talk is unnecessary and makes him huge a**hole. 

He is using the fact that he took(he didn't really take it, it was given to him) something that she worked for her whole life and uses that so he could humiliate her also he never fails to use a chance to show her that he is superior to her making him arrogant a**hole.

This manga only consists of abuse(or whatever you want to call it) and comedy and if you dislike abuse you are screwed since good part of comedy is about female MC being down, doing something stupid and realizing her own stupidity.

Maybe the abuse would be enjoyable if she was stuck up, liked to bully people, treated them like trash or something along those lines but she is complete opposite of that. 

 

bdw in case you didn't know this manga recently ended. Last chapter is 17 and hopefully casanova scans will decide to translate it soon.

Edited by toc14, 19 August 2015 - 04:03 PM.

[Pugnator]

 

The problem with this manga is that it is far too serious about its abuse, it's like watching some small guy in your classroom constantly being bullied.

Man you people are really overreacting. This isn't a case of bullying or anything of the sort, why do people talk about this manga like if the girl was being traumatized for life? Especially when this manga is pretty lighthearted. (and I don't see anyone complaining when a male MC gets literally maimed by a female MC, but I guess this type of double standard is normal and I won't blame anyone for it).

 

She can stop this at any moment, she can just accept he's more mary sue than her and just let it be, but she won't, she doesn't want to give up and keeps challenging him. In fact even when offered help she showed she really wants to defeat him with her own power. This isn't bullying, it's a goddamn competition and they both know it.

 

Regarding the punishment games, it's not that uncommon among youths, at least where I grew up. You put something at stake to make the competition more exciting, pretty normal stuff. She can also decline the punishments at any time, but she's too prideful for that. So what conclusion can we take from that? She would actually lose more pride from declining the punishment than from the punishment itself, and considering what the guy's punishment is if he loses I'd say he's even being quite generous.

 

The way some people are acting here reminds me of the soccer moms who won't let their kids play outside because they might get hurt. So lighten up people, you guys seem more upset about this whole ordeal than the girl herself.

[toc14]

Isn't this definition of bullying? Dude has something that girl actually believes it belongs to her(tho it doesn't), and he is using the fact that most of her life was built around it so he could get some amusement from her. Tho I'm not gonna deny that it is pretty lighthearted except for certain moments.

 

Comparing this to guy gets beaten half to death cliche is simply wrong. To start off, my favorite recently read comedy manga is Yuria 100 Shiki and good amount of the comedy in it consists of male MC preforming various pro wrestling moves, choke holds , joint locks, etc... On a female MC without holding back,(even the manga itself said it was domestic violence ) usually ending with girl being KO'd but worst thing that happened to her was nosebleed and bit of pain. Ofc that is never nowhere near the level of those "comical" situation where some guys get beaten until their face is basically unrecognizable, but that's only over-exaggeration(you wouldn't take someone being punched to a stratosphere seriously ), not a single character(or at least none that I know of) was actually maimed(having suffered permanent damage) from some beating. Hell, Urusei Yatsura even made a joke about MC being injured, where everyone was shocked when they saw MC wearing bandage, despite never being injured when he was constantly being electroshocked, burned or hit with a desk, huge mallet and so on... The point is, it's just an over-exaggeration and it's mostly done by friends without actually really hurting male MC(dude sure as hell wouldn't willingly be friend with someone who keeps seriously hurting him).

Whereas this manga deals with emotional abuse done by some basically random dude(tho I guess it would be worse if her friend was emotionally abusing her). 

Only thing keeping this manga lighthearted is that female MC has strong will and refuses to be defeated, since that's how she was brought up. If that wasn't the case whole manga would look much more like ch11. I can't talk for others but I find such abuse far more... disgusting than physical abuse which I can even laugh about if done right(I'm talking about those "maimed" MC situation tho "maiming" itself isn't funny part) especially when a genuinely good person is being emotionally abused.

Also I have to say it has nothing to do with double standards(well at least not for me) for example in early chapters of GTO there was this kid who wanted to commit suicide because he couldn't stand being bullied by few girls anymore and that shit was not cool, just the same as it was not cool when girl was taken advantage of and bullied by some girls because she was stupid.

 

Challenges are certainly not bullying, however him insulting, doing whatever he can to make her feel inferior, humiliate her and such things are.

Yeah, she can stop challenging him and lose position as head of Inugami group... It's said that she worked so hard for her whole life solely because she wanted to become great person like her grampa and inherit his position. Becoming the hair of Inugami group was the reason she studied, instead of having fun outside and making friends like other children and why she spent her time studying various martial arts, playing sports and learning whatnot, instead of focusing on one thing she loves and doing that... To stop challenging him would mean that she is throwing all that work and time away...

I don't even want to talk about how miserable the girl is, even without male MC messing with her.

 

Punishment games are certainly common thing(have you ever tried playing poker without buy-in... it sucks) and saying he is quite generous is no exaggeration but if she doesn't comply with dudes punishment for her, naturally he won't be give her another chance to win back her position, so I don't think it's that she would lose more pride from running away from punishment, it's more about her really wanting to become hair of Inugami group again. 

 

I dislike the abuse(what I see as abuse) girl is getting, mostly because this manga is comedy and doesn't deal with abuse at all. If this was psychological manga(without any comedy elements) that focuses on how that abuse affects female MC and why male MC is acting this way, I would probably love the fck out of it. But ofc this is all just my opinion. 

Edited by toc14, 29 October 2015 - 01:10 PM.