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The Power of the Name - Compilations and theories


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#21
Tsubaki

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^ Well it's not like it's easy to kill a Nastika in battle. Actually it should only be possible for a stronger Nastika or through trickery like the gods seem to use often... I always wondered how the Garuda ended up with a lack of Nastika.

The children of two Rakshasas would be the next lower form, Upani. 

 

Since the latest chapters we now that atleast the clan-name can be hidden away with a person, so it's possible that the 'power' of that name can be taken over by someone. I think Kubera's name is special because of Ananta... and Ananta's name is special because it's one of first generation sura king names and the name of the clan.... <<;   

I somehow can't imagine that it's so easy to give a Rakshasa the name of a Nastika... We know that the Nastika are born without parents and were named by the primeval gods. According to what Visnu told Gandharva in the flashback of ch. 2-68 (....Menaka would have been Gandharva's not yours) i think names are bound to one destiny and they can't come to existence again... like there can't be another Menaka or Vinata....the universe would have to start anew or there could be a naming-ability....... gah I'll stop with that... starting to confuse my self @_@


English is not my first language, and its often hard enough for me to arrange my toughts in my first language. I'm trying hard to make sense and to not sound rude.


#22
Mizura

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Mwahahahah, I just got another, interesting theory:

Nastika and Astika are both Names too.

 

They're like, the Master Names or the likes, and influence the Sura and Gods just like how Nastika Kings influence the rest of their clans.

 

The Name 'Astika' has already been tampered with, which is why the Gods have declared the usage of the term to be heresy.

 

And in N0, there was also an attempt to mess with the Name 'Nastika'. This, of course, messed heavily with all Nastika, causing them to go unstable, thus resulting in the emotional resonation of N0. Visnu (and Shiva?) had to personally intervene, at great cost to themselves because of how powerful this Name is.


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#23
smthFishy

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But only One Name to rule them all... .bwhahahahaah

 

More seriously, the Name does become tainted as you say, although I'm not sure if the Gods are currently aware. The defilement is done by Kubera, and he has exiled himself to hide his guilt. The cataclysm was a nice ditch effort by the remaining Primitive Gods to halt the contamination of the Name. As the "revolution card" held by Asha indicates, man will eventually no longer be able to call on the Gods for power. They will need to rely on themselves, and so in a very modern Nietzschean sense, God will become dead. Kubera Leez will become the very last God. 

 

There is a sequel to this. Man then discovers his own power and builds the tower of babel. The higher he builds the more he loses himself, until he forgets who or what he is... but that's different horror story for a different time. 


Edited by Old Man River, 14 March 2014 - 05:50 PM.


#24
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  • Personal therory of  battradio's that the cat on Kaz's head is a person wearing  Visnu's  Kitty head band , they most likely have green hair , and could be  Anna Haias or Shakuntala . Asha had plenty of time to give Anna the headband before the the red sky came carshing down or Visnu could have put it on Shakuntala him self to hide her (sic) that would make her a cat fish . God Items , See Kaz Lehn  in the Kubera wiki 

The power of the Name of Visnu goes a long way 

http://img4.wikia.nocookie.net/__cb20130202145506/kubera/images/f/fb/Kaz-portrait.png

http://img1.wikia.nocookie.net/__cb20120731233548/kubera/images/thumb/2/2a/MWSnap29600.jpg/185px-MWSnap29600.jpg


Edited by battradio, 17 March 2014 - 12:03 PM.


#25
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  • Personal therory of  battradio's that the cat on Kaz's head is a person wearing  Visnu's  Kitty head band , they most likely have green hair , and could be  Anna Haias or Shakuntala . Asha had plenty of time to give Anna the headband before the the red sky came carshing down or Visnu could have put it on Shakuntala him self to hide her (sic) that would make her a cat fish . God Items , See Kaz Lehn  in the Kubera wiki 

The power of the Name of Visnu goes a long way 

http://img4.wikia.nocookie.net/__cb20130202145506/kubera/images/f/fb/Kaz-portrait.png

http://img1.wikia.nocookie.net/__cb20120731233548/kubera/images/thumb/2/2a/MWSnap29600.jpg/185px-MWSnap29600.jpg

 

Kaz is defo very suspicious as is leez village.

0 death count anna seems to know alot.

Triple nil attributes/can somewat predicict future and survive leez punches.



#26
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Kaz is defo very suspicious as is leez village.

0 death count anna seems to know alot.

Triple nil attributes/can somewat predicict future and survive leez punches.

Wait, if Kaz has triple nil attributes same as Teo, doesn't that mean that he has the ability to hold the barrier just as Teo?!



#27
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Wait, if Kaz has triple nil attributes same as Teo, doesn't that mean that he has the ability to hold the barrier just as Teo?!

Yes, indeed. That's why some people were hoping for Kasak to bring Kaz along, since he and his brother are in Atera. That way he could power the chaos barrier, but it seems they are still somewhere out there.

Maybe the reason why they didn't even consider sending Kaz to Kalibloom is because they don't know he's a triple nil. Who knows.

But yeah, he could hold the barrier. Anybody with a triple nil attribute can. As easy as that.



#28
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I'll just throw this crazy "theory" out there.

 

Ananta is a name destined to be the strongest, so when Ananta was killed, the Power of the Name activated to fulfill the name's destiny. To be the strongest name, the Power of the Name (Ananta) would destroy the power of all other names. So names had to be hidden or else their power would be in danger of being lost. Thus, those who receive a powerful name (e.g., Leez, Yuta) must keep the fact hidden, and those with powerful names (gods like Agni) must keep their profile low when outside their realm. Destroying a name might be making it impossible for another person to receive the power of that name. So, Leez will be the last god Kubera since after she reveals her name, she will die with the Power of the Name (i.e., no Kubera after her will have godly powers).



#29
SunnySky

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^This person above stole what I really wanted to write.

Ananta
•He had a name [destined to be the strongest].
•Died by trickery.
•It probably SHOULD NOT have happened, because he was far stronger.
•He shares head space with Leez.
Kubera
•If you take after [him] in you tendency to trust...
•The Primeval God were upset he killed Ananta.
•He [overlooked the Power of the Name].
•He no longer has a place as a god.
•He still has abilities, such as regeneration, but [he is weakened].
•Although he drew the Sword of Re, Leez is also recognized as owner.
•The penalties of the Sword do not affect him.
Visnu
•According to Visnu, Gandharva and Utpala had destinies and bonds associated with their [name].
•So, kind of like a set relationship map that only Visnu, with his time manipulation and memories, could tamper with, right? (I'm not including the other Primeval Gods, their actions seem too suspicious to know for sure that they can freely manipulate the endings.)
•Visnu is no longer existing in the universe.
•His God-level items, which should be apart of him, work fine apart from his "special" earrings.
•Hoti Visnu can be used, but with a price because he said ["My existence is not stable."] or something like that.
Kali
•Gods are only supposed to die if their jurisdictions disappear, however Kali and Visnu are exceptions, since Visnu can lose form with too much time manipulation or somehow [leave], like Kali is implied to do, and never return.
•Judging by Taraka, she has A LOT of maternal love.



So!!!!! My theories on the Name:
-The power of the name sets the general guidelines of what you are supposed to do in life!
-Kubera shares the name with Leez (and maybe other persons).
-Kubera doesn't actually have a name though, it's kind of like [his responsibilities (destiny??) are being pushed on Leez].
-Since Kubera could get stronger if Leez dies, the other way works as well. So they share the position, and they will probably have to duke it out.
-(Gaah! My KuberaxLeez ship is burning!!)
-The power of the name probably applies to Visnu as well.
-Because Kali and Visnu are supposed to be [gone], yet parts of their power remains, the power of the name, uuh...grants them power. The name seems to remain in the universe, even after the people leave, because their items and magic is still there.
-That was hard to explain properly, I'll rephrase it later.
-The destinies set by the power of the name, are, well, destined.
-So maybe the Name passes on to somebody else in order to fulfill the destiny.
-The Primeval Gods can't return to wherever they went. But, judging by how Kali told Yuta that she'd never see him again and how Visnu took Shuri along, MAYBE IT'S TO ANOTHER UNIVERSE!
-Or not, since with their special insight, they could have seen that thy were going to die.


I didn't list the evidence, just take my word on it.
-Because Garuda is in a coma, and unable to fulfill his, uh destiny, it passed to one of his kids.
-Visnu or Kali could have seen that, so they made baby Yuta and seperated the children.
-Wow, that sounded awkward. But I'm not taking it back.
-The Garuda clan is officially done for.
-In the beginning, the number two of the clan was Vinata, and yet she was much weaker than Garuda.
-Since the Cataclysm, Garuda's almost dead, Vinata's dead, MARUNA is in charge.
-Granted, Maruna's strong, but he's a rakshasa.

-Kinnara clan had internal strife over the power of the name.
-Maybe because Kinnara didn't really fulfill her duties or something, since apparently she wasn't a reliable king, the name was passed to someone else?

-I just discovered that Visnu is an ass.

In fact, I feel some of these theories are incredibly obvious, so I don't know why I posted it. =_= But it's still good, they weren't obvious to me until my tenth reread or something, so I still feel extremely enlightened. (\^•^/)
However, there's a good chance Leez and Yuta aren't doomed, cause she could become a god!!!!
My favorite ship is burning!!!!! That's really cruel, Currygom. Uuwah.

Edited by SunnySky, 19 July 2014 - 11:35 PM.


#30
mangapaagal

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i don't know what you folks wrote. i will simply put my theory over here as if it were a chemical reaction with reasons to support

( Chemical info of ) The power of Name 

-Symbol of power :what a being must posses to have the power?
Birth Name , i believe everyone agree on this one

-Domain : what can the power affect?
Skills and Power (how else can nastika have different variety of skills and power when they have same power and parents?)
even though it can be said that they must have different skills the level of power they posses is too wild
and  that line "he who has strongest Name" points that Name decides power level
 

Destiny
the actions  of individual and life of bearers have a direct relationship with their names.

Gandha: others want me to rule and put aside shakun and menka ,but i want to live with my wife and daughter .i wonder vishnu how it would be if  I was not 'Gandharva'
Vishnu : if you were not 'Gandharva' then menka would be Gandharva's not yours

 

that comment of vishnu points that Name has a hand in destiny.
 

 

-Determination of begining : how one gets power originally 

Primeval god possess the name and  they transferred it to other created beings at their birth.

If we limit originator of powers to nastika and astika then it stands to reason that they get the power when they were named
 

Moreover , In Power of Name arc , asha tells ran about that story about names ,but he does not ask for more (while  we greedy people asks) nor he accusses asha of withholding crucial info (while we accuse currygom and would lynch her for it.)
 

Meaning Asha told complete story. and others have no relation to it.

 

-Users: who can have this power?
 PON originates in nastika(garuda,gandharva) and astika(kubera) while it can be passed through some means to other rakshasa(yuta) etc and humans(leez)


 

Method of Passing: 

For the living(garuda) the power can be transferred by body parts (i.e. power can concentrated in a body part as token) which can be moved around while the power is still linked  to original user .In garuda's case  ,PON is in his sword(which is his body part) and yuta is carrying the weopen to hide it.

Leez's case is exceptional. somehow kubera breached the laws of pon and as punishment he is silently slowing losing his pon to whoever has the Name

this case can be considered exceptional on the grounds that agni is aware of that sura is hunting leez due to her Name yet doing nothing(which has been shown) or tried to tell leez about it.


 

Method of Nullifying
impossible to nullify or if possible it would be Unobtanium
 

Limitations: 

pon determines destiny but can't change it .
 

this one is pure guess 

Law of energy 

pon can't be created or destroyed .it can only be transferred from  one being to other

that is why when kubera killed ananta ,his pon got released and started a chain in motion. and when kubera got affected by ananta's pon 
his name disappearred but power got transferred to other kuberas

 

Saha On : and when last of them will die a catastrophe on  scale of universe will happen 

 so it can be stated that while Name does not make you immortal ,the power in itself is immortal. 

 


Edited by mangapaagal, 12 November 2014 - 12:48 PM.


#31
themantarays

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Theory time~

 

Leez is not the target. Asha is the target because she also has Kubera's (or someone's) powers.

 

Reasons why Leez is not the target:

  • In the attack on Atera, they were primarily attacking places where magicians gathered. In the attack on Kalibloom, they only went for Kubera's items. I think they were expecting the target to be in Atera, since it was spotted in a nearby village, but they had no reason to think they'd go all the way to Kalibloom.
  • Maruna did not react to Leez' appearance with any urgency, and let Yuta save her without pressing the issue too much.
  • Kubera somehow convinced Sagara he was still on her side after saving Leez. He could have made up a lie, but given how Sagara's words were emphasized by currygom he probably told her the truth.
  • Coincidence in meeting Asha at the very moment she was attacked.

Reasons why Asha might be the target:

  • Asha has been visiting villages for the last few years, and red sky incidents have been occurring recently. We haven't heard of any more red sky incidents after Asha arrived at Atera.
  • They attacked Atera because they thought the target moved there, and if it's not Leez it's probably Asha.

Reasons why Asha might have been given powers:

  • She has above average strength for no reason.
  • Flashback of her (or someone) wanting more power, and Kubera cutting her. (I know we're not all in agreement about who this is. Either that was Asha, and he cuts her to give her power somehow, or that was, let's say, her mother, and he kills her and gives her daughter the power. Either way, Asha was probably present.)
  • It might be the reason she's been going around killing people with the names of gods, to collect their powers.

In order for any of this to make sense, there needs to be some special reason for attacking Rindhallow; either another target is there, or something else is located there. Maybe there's more people named Kubera there, and killing people named Kubera is still part of the plan, or maybe Claude's been collecting Kubera's items as part of his research. Either way, since they apparently no longer need to attack Eloth, it seems that they only need to get a certain portion of Kubera's power (or whoever's) before Kubera can do what he promised Sagara (which we're all assuming is reviving Ananta).

 

It's also possible that Asha has Ananta's powers instead, and every time she kills off someone holding Kubera's powers, Ananta's power becomes a bit stronger. Plus, there was the incident where Asha strangled Leez while Leez was having some sort of vision; it could have been an insight into something concerning Asha's past.

 

So here's what I think happened: Kubera subdues Ananta by cancelling out his name with Kubera's own, and Kubera spreads his name across bloodlines. This causes him to start losing his abilities as a God. (Side note: Yama, being the God of the Death of Names, naturally is aware of what has happened with Kubera.) Around N0, someone visits the parents of all the future descendants of Kubera, and convinces them to name them Kubera so that his name will be vulnerable. Then, before they can die of natural causes, Asha goes about killing them and taking their power. Meanwhile, Kubera gets Sagara and co. to kill the name holders AND Asha, so that he has enough energy to break through to whatever dimension he chucked Ananta into. (Or some other reason he needs more power to get Ananta back.) But really, he hasn't decided what he wants.

 

Back before N0, Manasvin hatched a plan to break open the dimension holding Ananta; it was common knowledge that this would cause instability in the universe. Manasvin went ahead anyway, incidentally causing a massive war, and his efforts culminated in the Cataclysm, during which he died. To save the universe and prevent fighting, Visnu and Shiva were forced to destroy the current system and replace it with multiple realms for the different races. The massive use of their powers caused them to disappear. However, Kubera's raw power, although deteriorated after 500 years of his name being diluted, still allowed him to break through some dimensions.

 

Carte was destroyed in the war between gods and sura. Asha wanted revenge, and Kubera promised her the power. He later promises Sagara to bring back Ananta. But he's been waffling the entire time. So we have 3 possible outcomes: Asha gains the power to do what she wants (which could be anything from killing a god/sura to my old theory of making everyone mortal), Kubera gains the power to revive Ananta, or the Name holders die natural deaths and... I suppose Kubera's name continues (or finishes) its decay, and Kubera and Ananta (and possible more afterwards) are no longer the beings they were.

 

 

Okay, that theory time went off a bit. :P



#32
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To bring a bit new life, and jumps in thoughts, to a very interesting topic: Here is a wall of text.

 

The Power of the Name. Topic for much speculation, but I think, we should first look at the main players in the war that is raging since the beginning of this universe: the Primeval Gods. Or more precisely: Visnu and Kali.

This theory will have some Hindu theology/legends in it (since Kubera has many characters inspired by Hindu gods and persons), so proceed at own risk of possible spoilers.

 

Now let's start with why Kali and Visnu are at war. To make it short: they fight for continuation or discontinuation of the universe.  To understand why, we have to look at their origins in the real world.

In the tradition of Trimurti the main gods are Brahma, Vis(h)nu and Shiva. Their roles are Creation (Brahma), Preservation (Visnu) and Destruction of the universe. Sounds familiar, doesn't it?

How does Kali come into this? To understand the importance of chaos in the universe, let's look at our own universe. Chaos is all present, not only in your room. Since the beginning of our universe the Entropy, measurement for the chaos in a system, is increasing, possibly resulting in the ripping apart of all matter in the end. Too abstract? Let's look at how chemistry works. Reactions betweens substances are often preferred if the Entropy, the Chaos, rises in the system as a result. There are a few examples in Chemistry, but i can't to seem a suitable one. Some of you will know what i mean.^^

But the point is: chaos naturally becomes stronger with time and, possibly, ends the univerese.

 

But what about the universe in Kubera? We know that Brahma created the universe, Visnu does everything possible for it to continue as long as possible and Shiva "erases" the mistakes and in the end destroys the universe, but we will comes back to that. But what is Kali's role in all this? We know that in our universe the chaos increases naturally, but what about Kubera, where we have the embodiment of it in Kali? It's simple: Kali is to increase the chaos and through that increase the mistakes in the universe which Shiva has to eliminate until Shiva hast to destroy the universe alltogether, what also explains why there were past universes. To back this up, let's take a look at one of her Hindu legends: In the battle against the demon Raktabija Durga summons Kali, so that she can lick away the drops of blood of the demon which he uses to create clones of himself, thus allowing the victory of Durga over Raktabija. In this legend Kali is "used" in order to kill a demon. In fact Kali is the very reason why Durga was able to win.

To top that the Hindu Kali has some attributes, we know from Kubera's Kali: Change, Destruction, Time, and motherly love. She even is portait as the consort of Shiva or his Shakti (often thought of as the ones that give the their husbands the power to fulfill their roles). Which is pretty big if we think about her possibly enabling Shiva to destroy the universe or even the "correcting" of errors through creating these via increased Chaos.

 

So Visnu wants to preserve the universe while Kali wants to destroy it. It also makes sense if we are looking at their Insight ability.

We know that Visnu sees the consequences of all possible choices. He then makes certain people aware of critical choices and through this manupilates the universe. Best example is Kasak. If Kasak didn't know about the choice concerning whether or not to kill Yuta in his 2nd stage, Kasak would have just ignored him and his plea. This would also have altered the course of the universe, but not in the way killing Yuta or getting closer to Leez would have. Visnu even manupilated Kasak to help Yuta through his choice of words and Kasak's inability to deal with him, if Kasak lets Yuta live. Kasak himself said that he heard too much about Yuta to not be curious about him. But as far we know this was the only mention Visnu gave of Yuta to Kasak. So it was too much through the way Visnu said it, not the amount of information directly given. Visnu, you sneeky...

Then what about Kali? We know that she has Insight on par with Visnu's, bestowed it onto Taraka though distorted (or is it) and even gave Yuta the ability, though we don't know if he has it because he is her son. My theory is that Kali has the same kind of Insight Visnu has, but under the bias that she sees the choices that will create the most chaos. And it even makes sense. Why else make a child the true King of the Clan of Chaos? Why else try to kill Shiva, the one that makes her efforts naught till the end, where he has no other choice? Why disappear, "erasing" her attribute which results in many, many babies that will never lead the life that was in hold for them, never to affect other people and their choices? All to create chaos. Literally.

 

But let's take a small look at Visnu again. Or better his magic. Why is his magic time related if he is to preserve the universe and has Ressurection as a source attribute? His magic is time related because that is the best way to preserve the universe. Ressurecting people to affect others through turning back their time and possibly seeing the future choices of the spells target. Hoti and bhavati Visnu. It is all to preserve through time manupilation.

Kali on the other hand wants to destroy in a roundabout way. Meaning her magic may effect past/current choices (hoti) and make sure that a future choice is done differently than it normally would. This part is pure speculation though.

 

This also explains why only Visnu is able to remember the past universes. He needs the memories in order to decide what choices will yield the best results for the universe as a whole while the others don't need it in order to fulfill their roles.

 

Now let's take a look at Kali and her Masterpiece, Yuta.

As we know and can assume, Kali bore Garuda's child while masking as a Nastika. But why? Out of an honest wish for a child? Hardly, though her real counterpart is associated with motherly love. But how in the name of Visnu does this create Chaos? And why create a Sura Clan with dangerous and faulty names? As we now, in order to create Chaos.

A Clan full of Suras with defective Names and the ability to nullify trancendentals is completly unpredictable and will do whatever they please, unconcerned about the consequences and will be hard to counter.

And the child? Yuta has the divinity of the Primeval God Kali, the embodiment of Chaos itself. Which means that even if Kali disappears Chaos will be still there and it will become stronger as Yuta becomes stronger. Plus Yuta is still technically a child, acting like he wants whenever he wants to without any way to predict his actions fueled by Chaos at times and by his desires at other. Remember how Chaos silent magic is coming back? That is probably thanks to Yutas developement as he acts as Kalis substitute in the matters of Chaos since her disappearence. The attribute didn`t become nonexistent, but it became too weak to have any influence. Which is also why Taraka wanted to keep Kasak from reaching Kalibloom when he wanted to kill Yuta as he was about to develope. We even have other evidence that Yuta is linked to the Chaos attribute. Remember that Kaz is triple Nil as well? How is he able to survive punches from Leez that can kill ordinary people when other humans with triple Nil are known to be weak and unable to perform magic? It is because Yuta came closer and closer to the planet, reaching it and through this strengthening all with Nil attributes. And we know how resilent triple Nil humans/quarters can be thanks to Teos almost immunity to trancendentals. Teo is probably less affected by this since she is already an adult, so her body doesn`t change as much as a child`s or teenager`s would.

 

 

 

And finally the Names. Let`s start with the Name itself. And let us stop thinking of Names as names when talking about Nastika and Gods. Let us think of Names as the very essence of the being that is named. Thanks to this everything that the being experiences it tied to it, resulting in letting Gods retain their memories when they resurrect after they died. But it also ties a destiny or certain events to a being. As Visnu said to Gandhvara, if Gandhvara had another Name, he would not have Menaka as his wife as she is destined to be the wife of Gandhvara. But the name also allows to transfer things tied to the name. Wonder how Kali was able to bear Garuda`s child without being a Sura herself and how she transfered her love for Yuta and memories to Taraka? She assumed the Name Taraka, which was a Nastika name with dangerous elements not used by Visnu, enabling herself to act like a Nastika, thus being able to conceive Garuda's child. After Yuta`s birth she created Taraka, gave her the Name she had used to give birth to Yuta and so transfered everything tied to that name, the memories of conquering Garuda and giving birth to his Child and all of her motherly love. Since Kali gave up one of her Names, it is thinkable that he had to abandon her physical existance. Which also explains Garuda's comment that Kali is now somewhere his voice can't reach as he would have been able to reach any destination in the universe with relative ease.

When we think about abandoning a Name God Kubera comes into mind, as he probably used his own Name in order to weaken/kill Ananta. In that he forsake his very existence, leaving him with a physical body as it is still tied to the earth he symbolizes, but leading to his leaving of the Realm of Gods. With all of his physical abilities he was able to draw the Sword of Re, but it didn't get tied to him as it is tied to the Essence of the wielder which he had forsaken. So he could easily give it to Leez who holds part of his Name and no problems what so ever.

 

 

 

I think the Cataclysm was something unrelated to the Power of the Name. More like the breaking of a great Taboo or breaking a fundamental rule. We know that in the beginning humans could borrow the Gods' power and the Suras' power. But that changed sometime in the universe (D0?) and humans only burrowed the Gods' power afterwards. But there were still followers of Suras, heretics, but still. I think that they maybe tried to summon a sura or even tried to bring it back to life using maybe even hoti visnu. The worst possibility would be Ananta. Not because he is the strongest, but because he is dead/nonexistent. I find it curious that a bloodied Asha asked Kubera for power. But why was Kubera even there? In a destroyed village nonetheless. Maybe he wanted revenge for the destroyed village, but at that time he had already lost all ties to the Gods. Maybe it was even him who destroyed the village because they still followed Sura. And somewhere there must be the source of Asha's heretic knowledge. High Ranking Mages may have access to it, but Asha was on everyones list as soon as she got her license, especially the high ranks because she wanted to use the Human Search System. How did she gain access? Probably she knew it before she became a Magician. That only leaves some library or her home village. A library with heretic knowledge would be hard to find in a world where everyone is "picky" about it. Maybe Asha's true Name is a Sura Name. But I digress.

Now I ask you: what is the last requirement to summon a god? My opinion is that when you want to summon the source of your magic, you need to have a part of it in order to get the summon to work. But how? An item? Could be helpful, but too hard to come by. The "easiest" way to have a part of a God, is to be a part of the God yourself, meaning you have to be a decendant of the god. Although it would now be very diluted in pretty all cases, so that they would be considered purebloods since centuries, I don't think it would be too strange. Sura halves are one reason. Depending on the Sura, halves are a good and easy way to expand your forces and/or followship. Why shouldn't Gods, as far we now there are no Children in the God Realm, have tried it for themselves. Though most probably did it for romantic reasons. Best example, because we have actual clues, is Agni. Brahma speaks of Agni's most recent courtship not going too peaceful when she notices that his sword is gone. And the way Agni behaves with Brilith is actually showing that he has some kind of romantic feelings for her. He surely isn't concerned about her vigor. His revelation to the Magicians is a very good example. Why would he use the ruse of him and Brilith being lovers to reveal himself? To embarras Brilith? I don't think so. And why go through all the trouble of beating up Yama and risking his defeat and being unable to help Brilith and the humans if he thinks lowly of her? And notice his expression when he finally reveals himself? That isn't the expression of someone fooling around, even though he said it like that.

 

The Power of the Name refers to the Essence of a Sura or even the Clan as a whole and Gods. They set certain events for the named in stone and also determine the personality to some extent. Misusing the Power of the Name has serious repercussions such as losing the existence or disappearing completely. It is possible to use Names against each other and transfer them to another person. Doing so will have consequences like the aforementioned. If someone loses his/her Name their essence gets transfered and inherited by humans with the Name. It will then become stronger if the other holders should die. Should the source of the Name (like Kubera) die when there is only one holder left it is possible that the God will either resurrect with his/her full power when the last holder dies or the last holder will become the successor of the God and will carry on the Name. In case the Name was used to cancel another Name and thus linking the Names, the killing of holders can serve to accumulate the Power of both Names and maybe even ressurecting the victim of the used Name, as it seems to be the goal of Sagara and Kubera.

Defective Names holds elements of danger. How this affects the named beings, we can only guess, but we know that Taraka and Yuta have defective names. In Taraka's case it could explain the complete fixation on Yuta beyond the pupose that she was created by Kali for, while Yuta could have the problem of uncontrollable hunger, especially when he was younger, as a result of his defective Name.

 

 

There is still more I could write, but it is late and I need to sleep. And who finds any mistakes can keep them. ;)


Edited by Nestrior, 01 July 2015 - 07:39 PM.

Mainly use my abstractly thinking and analytical brain to construct theories in order to solve the endless mysteries of Kubera instead of doing something really useful with it. So I will try to support most theories with more substance, if you want it or not.

 

Click here for a guide how to purchase the book version of Kubera.


#33
rojo

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Wow, this is all very in depth and makes a lot of sense! I do have one little nitpick though - Asha's encounter with Kubera wasn't during the Cataclysm, it was 5 years later when Carte was destroyed.

#34
Nestrior

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Forgot about that.^^

But still doesn't rule out the reasons for Kubera's presence there.

 

What's more. Since Asha disappeared because of using hoti Visnu too often and came back three years later her appearance being that of a 20 year old instead of 17, as it should normally be, a possible explanation is actually bhavati Visnu. We don't know what it does. It could show possible future events, it could set time to a by the caster determined time for target. It could be anything befitting Visnu's abilities. And furthermore, Asha could be able to use it. I know, bhavati magic can be only cast if one has a relation to that magic through at least one birth attribute being the same as the magic. If there was not Visnu again...

He said that Asha can now borrow his Power, thus enabling her to cast hoti Visnu. But borrowing the Power of a God means being able to use his Magic. And since Visnu possibly sacrificed his physical existence in order to end the Cataclysm (how would he end it if all we know points towards him being not directly destructive/creative in any way as it would be needed in order to seperate the realms by destroying the direct connections between them) these rules concerning general magic may not aply to his magic at all anymore. Because he DOESN'T EXIST in the form of a God.

We even get tidbits from currygom herself concerning Visnu's magic. IF and only then bhavati Visnu shows possible future(s/)events then Asha's killing of all these people suddenly get's another reason, besides powering her up in a way yet unexplained. How would Asha know which Holders of the Name Kubera are still alive after her three years of nonexistence? And how would she be able to know how to power up Leez, let alone knowing that Leez is able to master the Sword of Re or the Golden Knight? AND HOW THE HELL DOES SHE EVEN KNOW WHERE SHE HAS TO BE WHEN THE RED SKY EVENTS HAPPENED? Surely, there could be a pattern which would be easy for Asha to see given her abilities. It appears so much that Asha knew what would/could happen to a certain extent that Leez directly comments about it. Why else would Asha comply so easily when she knows that she could be killed. Or maybe she knew the result before the summons even came. But that is all theory.


Mainly use my abstractly thinking and analytical brain to construct theories in order to solve the endless mysteries of Kubera instead of doing something really useful with it. So I will try to support most theories with more substance, if you want it or not.

 

Click here for a guide how to purchase the book version of Kubera.


#35
AMSTHEGREAT

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That is an interesting theory, specifically about Kali,  to continue the convo from wikia. Even if the theory is true that her insight shows the most chaotic future, that doesn't mean Taraka's insight is the same, she has insight, I think because her name is now associated with Kali after her possessing it, but the name Taraka was a mistake, or whatever the term was, and that could leave the insight not working right, so I still hold by my theory that her insight at the end of that chapter has already happened, at least I think it's still a possibility.

 

Also, about Kali's insight showing the most chaotic future, you made it sound like that would be on par with Visnu's insight, but is it really? Visnu sees all possibilities, Kali sees all chaotic futures, Visnu sees what Kali sees and more, there's no way for Kali to win, at least using her schemes, at least without Visnu stopping her. though this works pretty well with the idea that chaos grows with time, and eventually visnu runs out of possibilities where the world doesn't fall into chaos, and so he starts manipulating time. Though it's kinda depressing (strangely enough) that Kali's efforts mean nothing, as well as Visnu's. Knowing the future of chaos may help her cause more chaos, but it doesn't tell her how to prevent the prevention of chaos. Still, chaos grows, till the world needs to be destroyed, so here's a question, who will be the one to destroy it now that Shiva is gone?


Picture is from the great anime Shinsekai Yori, I couldn't recommend it more than I do


#36
Nestrior

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The pretense is another. Though I may have said that Kali sees the most chaotic futures, she also needs the knowledge of how to reach them, which is in essence the same as Visnu's Insight, but under the pretense of Chaos instead of Preservation. Even if Visnu sees more than Kali, because of his goal to preserve the universe as long as possible his field of vision is narrowed compared to when he would just see all possibilities with no goal.

 

And who will destroy it?  That is an interesting question. In the case of our real universe, it may happen that the entropy (which is essentially the same as chaos) becomes so strong that all matter in the universe isn't able to sustain itself, falling apart until nothing is left at all, except chaos (and maybe pure energy). Maybe it will be the same for the universe of Kubera now?

Another possibility is Taksaka. We now that there were problems with the Dragon of Destruction in the previous universe through the Finite(?), since he is one of the few beings who actually have the attribute of Shiva's domain. What would you call it if a being endangers the existence of the universe because it used its power too reckless? Likely trouble... or problems if you are used to it through occasions in an unknown number of previous universes. So Visnu put on a "leash" to Taksaka in this universe in order to minimize the risk of it happening again. Maybe a fully-powered Destructive Breath from Taksaka has a similiar effect to balefire from the Wheel Of Time books in which balefire erases the thread(existence) of the target out of the pattern (universe) to the extent that even recent events caused by it are reversed and destabilize it to the extent of causing rifts and earthquakes. A bit farfetched, but hey: we need a danger to the universe and if that isn't one, then what is?

 

 

And did you create the account just for this? I initially did the same for the long wall of text.


Edited by Nestrior, 03 August 2015 - 09:33 PM.

Mainly use my abstractly thinking and analytical brain to construct theories in order to solve the endless mysteries of Kubera instead of doing something really useful with it. So I will try to support most theories with more substance, if you want it or not.

 

Click here for a guide how to purchase the book version of Kubera.


#37
AMSTHEGREAT

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yes and no, since I plan on trying to keep up with the discussions here, will need to get to the other threads some other time, but yes, this was a good opportunity to make an account and to check stuff out :D


Picture is from the great anime Shinsekai Yori, I couldn't recommend it more than I do


#38
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On the past few days I was bored at work, so I decided to theorize about the Power of the Name.

 

I decided to focus on the name mechanics, in order to find some rules that are coherent with what we know for sure and at the same time could explain some of the mysteries in a decent way.

 

To do so I listed some of the relevant facts, made assumptions from those and then hypotheses on things we know that happened but we don't know why, based on the assumptions.

 

Facts:

  •  F1 - We know that Names are a closed entity, composed of the Name itself and its powers for a Nastika, and adding the body and other stuff for Astikas. As stated in a post above it's likely that they also include fate to some extent (since we have Ghandarva's quote, I decided to put this here)
  •  F2 - We know that when the primeval gods created the universe, they were the "Owners" of all the powerful Names.
  •  F3 - We know they gave most of the Names to powerful created entities, making them what they are now.
  •  F4 - We know that Kali at some point "stole" the remaining Names, in order to be able to assign them to herself and others.
  •  F5 - We know that a sura/god hybrid is possible with Taraka who, despite being both, is really weak.
  •  F6 - We know that Nastikas and Astikas were all created at the beginning of the universe, so actually the most powerful being that can be generated are Rakshasas and Dragon's halves. We also know that both takes the powers and traits from the parents (Yuta's mixed wings, Kasak's invisible breath).

 

Assumptions:

  •  A1 - I assume the "Owner" of a Name is a being which can rightfully assign the Name (along with its power) to another being.
  •  A2 - I assume that upon naming someone, along with the Name powers, the ownership of the Name is also transferred and lost by the previous owner. The latter is thus unable to do anything about the Name directly even if more powerful (Kali would have gotten Names back from Nastikas otherwise).
  •  A3 - I assume that if you have a Name (and from A2 also its ownership) you can both:
    • A31 - assign the Name to someone (most likely losing it yourself) along with powers and ownership.
    • A32 - grant its ownership to someone else, so that he can assign the Name/ownership.
  •  A4 - From F4 I assume that the ownership of the Name might be transferred without actually naming someone with the Name itself.
  •  A5 - I assume that if someone has a Name, he can grant its ownership (A32) without losing the Name and the ownership (this might be the biggest fault in the system).
  •  A6 - From F5, having a being with two different kind of Names doesn't actually give it the sum of both powers. The being might be able to use skills of both (Kali's insight and Taraka's eyes) but the raw power might actually decrease.

Hypotheses:

  •  H1 - A1 will explain why there are many humans with god Names but without a share of their powers. The Name wasn't given them directly by a rightful owner.
  •  H2 - A2 will explain why primeval gods are unable to fix the situation with their powers alone.
  •  H3 - If the assumptions A3, A4 and A5 are correct, god Kubera might have made a backup of his Name giving the ownership to some humans, in order to retrieve it in the same way after defeating Ananta.
  •  H4 - Upon giving the Name to someone else (A31), different things will happen to Astikas and Nastikas.
    •  H41 - Gods will be able to keep going in their actual body until the latter "dies". In other words they will never reincarnate again. This is possible since the Astika's Name includes also the body (F1). When the body dies, the outcome might be the disappearance of the Name altogether (and the related realm, resulting in a possible universal disaster) or the use of a temporary body if someone else has the Name.
    • H42 - For Nastikas the most obvious thing would be death, but it might be possible to explain Garuda's coma if otherwise the original body somehow only maintains its immortality.
  •  H5 - God Kubera might have defeated Ananta by giving him his Name directly (something of the sort was already mentioned in a previous post). In this way he might have both decreased Ananta powers (A6) and linked him to his existence, probably enabling him to seal Ananta in another space/dimension.
  •  H6 - As already mentioned in a previous post, Kali most likely named herself Taraka, acquiring the Name specific power (eyes), but losing her raw power. After giving birth to Yuta, she passed both the names to someone else creating the actual Taraka. Who was this someone else I have no clue, maybe a lesser god.
  •  H7 - Yuta got powers from both sides of his mother (eyes and insight), but got a single powerful Name (Garuda's?), and this might work around the "two Names at the same time" limitation making him very powerful.
  •  H8 - Leez has Ananta memories (and maybe more) because the Names Ananta and Kubera have been linked (H5).
  •  H9 - The Names might also include the fate of the owner, as mentioned before. I don't know how much Currygom intends to stick to Hinduism, but there Ananta is considered endless, meaning it had a beginning but will not have an end. In other words he's destined to be the last to die in the universe (or even survive to it). In Kuberaverse this might be the reason why he's most likely sealed away instead of dead.

                 

Hope this makes some sense not only to me...


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#39
Nestrior

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Here's a theory about tPotN for Nastika and how it affects all Sura that are born after them.

 

 

From Visnu's conversation with Gandharva some time near Shakuntala's birth, we know that certain things are predetermined for Nastika. In Gandharva's case this meant being married to Menaka, great power and much suffering, but also: remarkable happiness, wondrous love and friendship that can transcend races. These things were tied to his Name. His marriage to Menaka also meant that the cruel and vicious Gandharva would become a pacifist. This is significant as it shows that Gandharva's path would always involve these things, even after he lost his previous happinesses. He would always have great sufferering, but also these three forms of happiness. Visnu said that nothing is eternal, but even when things change, there are always constants.
What we see in Gandharva is an example for all Nastika. All of them have certain things that will happen for sure (e.g. marriage to a certain person) and constants that may change in the persons that represent them. This is very similiar to how Astika Names are connected to their Power, Soul, Body and Memory.
But what about their children? We know that one of Garuda's children holds the Power of the Clan Name. How is that even possible in the first place? Normally only Nastika and first among all the current King should be affected by it in this way, as tPotN is the strongest in them and they are the strongest of their Clan. But no, the Name of the Clan lies with one of Garuda's children.
This is likely because tPotN is heriditary in the case of Sura. But it becomes weaker the further down the children are, meaning that tPotN is the strongest in Nastika, then Rakshasa, Mara, Upani. You catch my drift. Blood relation to the current King probably increases tPotN in his/her children, making the Garuda dilemma possible.
This is also the reason why Sura children become more human like as they develop while their earlier stages are less humanlike the further they are from Nastika. The reason lies in tPotN manifesting less the weaker the parents are, but the connection to it becomes stronger as the develop.
This also explains why the Sura Forms of Nastika are considered to be a transcendental: The strong Power of their Names makes their natural form their Human one, but the moment we look at Rakshasa tPotN is not that strong anymore that it makes their Sura Forms into transcendentals.
And when you think about it: This everything also explains why a longer developing time increases the strength of the following Stages. The Power of their parents' Names becomes more "stable" the longer they stay in a Stage, making the jumps in strength when they develop bigger, but also less exertive on the Sura. This is also the reason 5th Stage Rakshasa need millenia worth of experience: Should they develop too soon the sudden surge greatly harms the individual because the Names were not "stable" enough.
TPotN consequentially also influences the conditions for the development of the Sura. Pacifistic parents allow for more lenient while parents that are more into combat mean stricter conditions. This ties back into the time the Sura needs for developing, which in turn influences the resulting strength of the Sura. We have to wonderful examples for this: Shakuntala and Maruna. Both started at 2nd stage when Maruna came to the Gandharva Clan, but at the time of the Cataclysm (meaning less than 300 years, possibly closer to 200) Shakuntala was 4th Stage while Maruna barely managed 3rd, despite a considerable headstart of several centuries (as is implied by their ages in that picture; Shakuntala is ???years while Maruna is ????). In fact we know that Maruna stayed in 2nd stage for more than 500years thanks to his transcendental "Latent Force" (which lets him borrow the power of his next stage of development for a limited time). In other words: Shakuntala was weak because her parents were pacifistic and she didn't train in ways similiar to Maruna while Maruna had to acquire massive combat related experience and only developed after both Shakuntala and Kalavinka reached 4th and 3rd Stage respectively ahead of him.


Mainly use my abstractly thinking and analytical brain to construct theories in order to solve the endless mysteries of Kubera instead of doing something really useful with it. So I will try to support most theories with more substance, if you want it or not.

 

Click here for a guide how to purchase the book version of Kubera.


#40
HiKou

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I wonder if Asha is after Ananta's power and wanted to take control of the resurrected Ananta...