73 replies to this topic

[FeatherBlade]

I think that part of what the original poster missed is that Mr Smith's own culture and upbringing wouldn't allow him to continue his pursuit of a woman, should the head of her family decide that Mr.Smith were unsuitable.
 

[truepurple]

That would make sense and explain alot if true, feather. But I've seen a few shows etc based in older time periods in England. They had a rather strict social casting, which overrode most other concerns, which he has been out of for some time now. And apparently the concept of eloping came from middle england, a time much older then this is set in. http://www.experts123.com/q/what-is-eloping.html Smith has been a observer outside of any particular culture or social norms for years now. He has been observing the family, but still not a turk or treated like one, and has certainly not been immersed in english culture.

 

Besides I am not exactly sure what time this is set in, but they did have a women all dressed in "male clothes" at one point (and Smith did not flinch or get bothered by that),  so womens lib is not a unknown concept among the english in this time period.

Edited by truepurple, 02 November 2013 - 10:45 PM.

[tohukyo]

Pax Empyrean, I agree with all you've said (well actually I didn't read all of it because I just happened onto this thread when taking a break from exam studying). If I could like all your posts, I would but it seems like I exceeded that limit for today but generally the whole 20th century norms on 19th century norms is totally correct as to what most people do when reading historical mangas. Even though it is fiction and therefore it allows some flexibility, it would be rude to ignore the customs and mores that exist in the culture at the time. I think to completely disregard them is kind of...mmm  what's the word...not arrogant nor is it condescending... I"ll just say egocentric. I also think your point of view is from a more sociological perspective as in looking at the big picture. Most people seem to individualize what's going on, giving sole responsibility of action to those who are the actors in the scenario (reality and fictionally). It's very typical of western cultures to do so as well since we're such individualistic societies and not about the collective good. It's disappointing but tradition doesn't get wiped off the face of the earth in an instant. It is a gradual process (look at the Amish in the US. Original they shun technology but they are increasingly evolving and compromising in order to continue the Amish society). 

 

Anyone passing by this post would probably think, what the heck is the point of this post. The point is (in a more civil manner of speaking) as Pax Empyrean says (but in a more strongly worded manner), we can't impose our own values and customs onto those of another culture and time period. There are underlying unconscious biases and social forces at play that influence our daily lives even in the present day. I think this was the conflict that Mr. Smith had to deal with considering he is a scholar (either sociologist or anthropologist, dk) taking part in an ethnographic study.

 

Also one last note since this was put a little crudely, thinking with his "PENIS". What this means is that a large majority of the world functions under a PATRIARCHAL society aka male dominated/leading/controlling societies (definition of society can vary--can be as small as a family or tribe and as large as a whole country). This is still happening today.

 

As for the acid throwing...yeah...that happens a lot in india if a girl happens to want to defy a marriage arrangement and she's the only one in opposition. 

 

will probably change this post after I find time to read the whole argument that takes place here. Very interesting points brought up but my post, as you can see if very biased. 

Edited by tohukyo, 04 December 2013 - 05:00 PM.

[Pax Empyrean]

Thanks for the support. I think that one of the things that sets this manga above a lot of others is that the characters don't act like modern people transplanted into a historical setting, because that would cheapen the setting. The setting is a huge part of this story. It reminds me of the Lord of the Rings that way; while there is a plot and characters, the real star of the show is the world itself, and everything that happens highights different aspects of it. It would be a terrible dicision to throw away the integrity of the setting for the sake of giving a character a hookup.

[Pax Empyrean]

I am not surprised that you would describe random swearing and other crap you typed, "poetry", it fits perfectly with your gutter tastes and foul disposition.

 

For those curious, it was a double dactyl, which is quite difficult as far as poetry goes. Look at the list of rules for them: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Double_dactyl

I could probably write two or three quatrains in iambic heptameter in the time it would take to write another one.

Edited by Pax Empyrean, 05 December 2013 - 01:12 AM.

[Gene Eric Pseudonym]

Thanks for the support. I think that one of the things that sets this manga above a lot of others is that the characters don't act like modern people transplanted into a historical setting, because that would cheapen the setting. The setting is a huge part of this story. It reminds me of the Lord of the Rings that way; while there is a plot and characters, the real star of the show is the world itself, and everything that happens highights different aspects of it. It would be a terrible dicision to throw away the integrity of the setting for the sake of giving a character a hookup.

Agreed. Whilst it may be harsh and uncivilised in contrast with our 21st century Western cultural norms, the author should in fact be credited for portraying the setting in a relatively realistic (even if somewhat still romantic) light. Likewise, Smith's reluctant acceptance of reality was also supposed to be a reminder that as a researcher learning these people's culture, he knows very well just how different their way of life can be from his own (never mind with those of us lucky enough to be living in well developed nations, instead of places where cultures like that are still the norm) and how deeply ingrained it can be.

 

... Frankly, this isn't the first time truepurple has tried to impose 21st century Western norms onto a setting where such cultural beliefs are alien, as seen here:

http://vatoto.com/forums/topic/6595-not-sex-services-sex-slavery-justifying-the-unjustifiable

 

P.S.

Also, Talas acting in open defiance to her new step-father simply because we the readers want Smith to be happy would not only be out of character, it would have cheapened just how big of a deal it was for Amira to take the actions she did in chapter 33.

Edited by Gene Eric Pseudonym, 05 December 2013 - 01:37 AM.

[Comadrin]

Interesting thread.  I did notice who received "likes" and who received zippo in that category.  

[truepurple]

Many points completely ignored in responses. So i will make it simple.

 

Since we are talking about Smiths behavior, it is only Smiths culture and personal beliefs that matters, especially as he never asked Tarasu whether she would run away with him or not. With that british women dressed in "mens cloths" and smiths behavior in general, we can see that Smith has no belief of "keeping women in their place".  

 

And he knows the situation is unusual. 

 

So it boils down to:

1. What chance does Smith believe he has in succeeding. Well he never fully explored the possibility, that limited conversation can not be called fully exploring the possibility. 

 

2. Does he love her enough to take that chance.

 

3. What does he think will make Tarasu most happy, what does she want. Well again, he never asked. But

it's clear that Tarasu loves him and can't stand that man. And mother in law made it clear that she will be mistreated.  And she reached out to him when he came by.

Edited by truepurple, 07 March 2014 - 03:23 PM.

[iconxraiza]

 

Since we are talking about Smiths behavior, it is only Smiths culture and personal beliefs that matters, especially as he never asked Tarasu whether she would run away with him or not. With that british women dressed in "mens cloths" and smiths behavior in general, we can see that Smith has no belief of "keeping women in their place".  

 

 

 

  

 

No. What matters is respecting the culture where you are right now. I can see where you are coming, but being unrespectful towards one culture just because you found it wrong by your own culture is blatant ignorance. I am a mixed and moved here and there, believe me I learnt cultural clash the hard way. What Smith did, even tho it's sad, is a mature act. 

[Pax Empyrean]

I think it's funny that truepurple thinks everyone else is missing the point. Clearly, everybody but him is crazy. That's the only possible explanation!

Since we are talking about Smiths behavior, it is only Smiths culture and personal beliefs that matters

Except that Smith knows he is a guest in another culture, which means taking their rules into consideration. Smith, as an anthropologist, is particularly aware of the importance of this.

he never asked Tarasu whether she would run away with him or not.

Because asking her to do this would be cruel, and would likely get him killed as a thief or kidnapper. He asked his friends what he should do, and they all told him to move on. Is your head stuffed so far up your own culture-hole that you can't see why it might not be a good idea for him to go against the rules and customs of the land he is traveling in? Without their good will, he's stranded in the steppes with no steppe survival skills to speak of. If he falls out of favor with the locals, he's quite literally a dead man.

What chance does Smith believe he has in succeeding. Well he never fully explored the possibility, that limited conversation can not be called fully exploring the possibility.

Nonsense. You notice how everybody in this story is always talking to everybody else? These are tight-knit communities. You can't just expect some English guy to show up in a new town out of the blue without people wondering whether he has something to do with that English guy their second cousin told them about who stole a wife a while back a couple towns over. Smith doesn't need to spend three chapters contemplating a point so obvious that it bears no further speculation. He's European, he stands out. There's no way he could go incognito.

[iconxraiza]

You got selective reading skills or something?  I provided two major incidents of people defying cultural ideals at the same time I said that. The culture says a marriage is forever. They trying to break up that marriage because of economical and political reasons. They claimed that the marriage wasn't holding unless she was with child, but I am sure this is foundless, just a excuse they cooked up. They went against cultural ideals.

No, it is not. When a couple could not conceive children, they would and could get separated. The 'demand of separation could come from any parties. The bride side would demand so since the bride would not get any younger, so it's better to marry her off to someone else. While I do agree that the amount of time for Amir's family demand is ridiculous (they just got married if am not mistaken), it is not unthinkable or directly went against cultural ideals, as you worded it. She could be a wife, but not yet a mother (of another clan's member) so the ties is not as knitted as you think it is.
 

And that deal with the Russians, enemy of their culture for weapons to steal land, kill people. I am sure lots of cultural conventions say this is wrong, but they did it anyway. Then that backstabbing guy attacks his own allies, against cultural ideals again.

Everyone used to be a nomad. When you live in that lifestyle, war between lands, women, and livestock is a given.
 

That really doesn't matter. You're just being anal, the culture is similar enough for this conversation.

No they are not. It is the same with saying 'All Asians looks the same' thing. They differs so much I can write you an essay of it. Please understand that even if they look similar to you, does not mean it's the same. Arab and Turks are different. Heck, here where I live now in Indonesia, we have 300 something tribes that speaks 500 something languages. Marriages between tribes is an issue that needs a delicate treatment and could not simply be brushed of with 'hey, we are all Indonesian anyway, so let's do it simple'.
 

If said women truly was a gold digger, someone who is marrying a old rich guy strictly just for money, and there are such people, then such a accusation would not be far off.
 
Similarly it is buying a spouse. He even admitted that it really doesn't matter if he doesn't have someone in mind, once he has the funds, actually finding a bride will be easy. 
 
Its basically treated like women are a drain on resource, a useless extra mouth to feed if not acting like a wife. The dowery is recompensation for the cost of raising a useless girl, but its also buying said daughter.  Some fathers might care about their daughters and have the financial luxury of allowing their daughters to marry someone they love, or at least like. Otherwise its all about money, and ties to money, and ties to power It's selling/buying a bride. They may or may not take offense at having it put like that, but that is still what it is.

This is a personal insult. But then again, from how I read your view, it looks like you simply do not get it. What the guide means is he needs money to have a dower (people live in western often said bride price <-- the term is sth I don't like myself, what price?) not dowry. It's a miss translation as I have the raw. Dowry is an inheritance given to a daughter when she is married rather than await until his parent's death. Dower is what the groom give to the bride's family and the bride herself. The dower then will be settled as the bride's own property that separated from the couple shared property. It is not buying the girl at all. Both serves as protection tool for the bride. If by hazard something happens and she became a widow, the dower and dowry will serve as a primary financial support. That is why usually it is in gold, diamonds, or another jewel. Those things are more stable than money anyway. So it is not the bride price at all. For us that practice this custom, it is a consideration of both parties. It is an insurance of any future possibilities. After all, it's not easy for a widow to re-marry. 

 

For me, what the guide said is a show of his responsible thought. He knows that he has to protect and finance his family. Marriage without money is not impossible, but then again, is a reckless act. The growing family will needs all the foods, clothes, living expenses, and later maybe even a bigger, cleaner, better house. And without money? How he affords to give his best to his own family? When he has enough for the dower, he can show the bride's parents that he is capable of taking care of their precious daughter. He simply do not court a girl right now because he knows it is irresponsible if you initiates a relationship without any capability. He said he's not picky maybe came across you as ' I do not care which girl' but I take it as he is being humble. He knows he would not be any parent's first choice. He is poor...You may said this is a romantic view simply because you see it as simple as money or that aggravating word, 'bride price'.

 

You can see it nowadays where male dominated culture still exists, girl babies actually being killed because boys are so much more desirable. Boys holding the future of the family while girls are just a extra mouth to feed until being sold for marriage.
 
 
Culture is fluid because people aren't static. People constantly struggle to improve the lot of themselves and the people they care about, things like "cultural ideals" often take a back seat to this basic human instinct. If not completely ignored, cultures are bent, twisted, changed, picked and chosen from to suit the individuals. Culture is constantly being reinvented.
 
If this statement of 'cultural ideals being absolute' were true, then jails would be a hell of alot more empty then they are now.

 

Yes.. so sad for those baby girls 

 

Culture may chances, but I won't say improving. The ideas that the culture needs an improve means that the culture is wrong. There is no such a thing as 'my culture is right and yours are wrong'. And it takes such a loooong time for a culture to changes. It's just that deep integrated in a society. And for me, the fact that there's people in jail shows that the cultural ideals being absolute. Sure bad people needs to be punished. That is a culture ideals to maintain safety and stability of one society.

[Kazaddum]

Many points completely ignored in responses. So i will make it simple.

 

Since we are talking about Smiths behavior, it is only Smiths culture and personal beliefs that matters, especially as he never asked Tarasu whether she would run away with him or not. With that british women dressed in "mens cloths" and smiths behavior in general, we can see that Smith has no belief of "keeping women in their place".  

 

And he knows the situation is unusual. 

 

So it boils down to:

1. What chance does Smith believe he has in succeeding. Well he never fully explored the possibility, that limited conversation can not be called fully exploring the possibility. 

 

2. Does he love her enough to take that chance.

 

3. What does he think will make Tarasu most happy, what does she want. Well again, he never asked. But

it's clear that Tarasu loves him and can't stand that man. And mother in law made it clear that she will be mistreated.  And she reached out to him when he came by.

Funny how you think the moral norms of 19. century England would be close to 20. century.

 

If you want to compare these, check the arabic world today, pretty much that mindset.

England and most of the "western world" had some very liberal changes happen in the 20. century.

At the time of Otoyomegatari these have not yet happened.

 

Also think about were Mr. Smith is: In the middle of central Asia, which is slowly but surely getting eaten by Russia, warrying with itself and so on, not in a secure 21.century 1st world region.

It would be a complete turn off if he acted like he was in the latter, part of the charm of Kaoru Mori's manga is the historical accurate world her characters are interact with.

[Comadrin]

Kazaddum: really enjoyed your post.  A large difficulty (is that the right modifying adjective and noun?) in writing historical novels and manga is in making readers with contemporary opinions/mores understand how people thought and believed in the past, whatever year and region the work is set in.  Most (sane) readers of today cannot be expected to identify with Roman gladiatorial audiences, enjoying the slaughter of fighters in the colosseum, or later (during the extremely decadent times) the slaughter of small children to starved animals.  At the same time, most western (and probably Japanese) readers have trouble understanding why Amira is grieving for her father, who was a complete and utter egotistical scumbag who would have sold his daughters for prostitution, body parts, or political expediency.  Hell, I can't understand it myself, but it was part and parcel of the world they lived in.  Reverence for parents isn't just a Judeo-Christian doctrine from the old and new testament, it was a genetic survival imperative passed down from generation to generation.  Amira knew that her father was a nasty, selfish old scumbag, just as the girl Mr. Smith met knew that the man who became her "father" was a greedy and unscrupulous dirtbag.  At the same time, their training from the cradle (far more compelling in more primitive societies than us European/North Americans live in) was that paternalistic relations, whether from blood or marriage, are inviolable.  Going against a father, for them, was like someone from a strict Catholic background spitting on a crucifix.  Taboo, in a non-global society, is incredibly powerful.  

 

Amira and Karluk are pretty advanced in their opinions, as far as they can be in their society.  He's damned if he'll let her family take her away from him (as a guy, I definitely don't blame him for that).  Amira is willing to do almost anything to stay with Karluk.  At the same time, she loves her brother, and continues to revere her father (within limits), even though she knows well that he's a despotic tin-plated Hitler.  It's bred into the bone, so to speak.  

 

Mr. Smith understands this.  He wasn't in love with what's-her-name, but he was willing to rescue/marry her.  It was a pretty huge step for him and probably would have been a happy marriage, if they could have gotten over the English Victorian (and later) prejudice about "marriage with one of inferior race."  (For more on that, read The Dark River by Nordhoff and Hall, who wrote Mutiny on the Bounty; racism was alive and well in the British Empire well into the 20th century.)    Love wasn't considered important in the beginning of a Victorian marriage.  Like Tevje from Fiddler on the Roof, it came later after an arranged contract between families, normally.  He also understands the cultural differences in Turkik Asia, where he is a mere visitor/observer.  He shows his anger and disappointment by throwing the watch away, but he knows that dragging her off is not the answer.  Romeo and Juliet is a European play, and is not really a sympathetic story to many cultures.  Just read Shakespeare in the Bush, by Laura Bohannon.  She (an anthropologist) tries to explain Hamlet to a group of African tribal elders in the early 20th century.  They have a totally different reaction to the story than any European/North American audience has had for the last 500 years.

 

Bottom Line (at least my bottom line):  If you write historical fiction, whether written word or manga, you definitely won't please all the readers all the time.  Purists will argue that Karluk is a wuss and should be beating Amira for being uppity.  Modernists think Karluk should be beaten for telling her to put more clothes on when his father is entertaining guests.  Wannabe tacticians will say that Amira's brother couldn't have turned the tide against an enemy with cannons on the high ground.

 

My opinion:  Kudos to Mori Kaoru for writing a beautifully illustrated, extremely well-written and meticulously researched manga about a fascinating period in our world's history, and for creating characters that are memorable and inspiring, and creating a plot that is interesting and enthralling.  If some readers think Mr. Smith is a wimp (if he was, he would have stayed as a tutor at a safe English public school), Karluk is an uppity brat, and Amira is a boring stereotype (anyone less stereotypical would be hard to find), LET THEM.  Let them go read realistic manga, where the MC's are sociopaths or the women are sex-craved nymphomaniacs.  Let sentimental, unlettered ignorami like you and me read Otoyomegatari.

 

(A side question:  Is your user name from the planet of the shadows in Babylon Five?)

Edited by Comadrin, 19 March 2014 - 07:41 AM.

[Evilnemesis]

That was a lot to read!

 

First off, I'd like to thank truepurple. Why? Although I often find myself on the opposite side when it comes to opinions and arguments, I can't deny that as a poster he or she always goes "all out" which is refreshing to see.

 

As for this particular case. I think my opinion is very close to Comadrin's. People want different things in a manga, can't please everyone.

 

I also agree that Mr. Smith wasn't in love, he just took pity on the girl. He had no obligation to play the white knight and save the day.

Am I a bit sad that he didn't try anything? You bet I am! Compared to Karluk and Amira's story this is definitely more somber.

 

I'm used to my happy endings from Emma. If you remember, most, if not all, characters had their happy ending in some way in the 2 "epilogue" volumes. This is why I was taken aback here, but from more recent chapters, this looks like it's shaping up to a tad bit more dramatic than her previous works.

 

Ultimately, I think this feeling I feel is the same as the sister of the fiancé in Emma. How dare he make her sad?!

 

Also... why does she have to draw these women so beautifully, each time they let their hair down... It just makes it worse stuff like this happens.

 

 

 

http://vatoto.com/read/_/109719/otoyomegatari_v3_ch13_by_scantily-clad/21

http://vatoto.com/read/_/109719/otoyomegatari_v3_ch13_by_scantily-clad/22

http://vatoto.com/read/_/109719/otoyomegatari_v3_ch13_by_scantily-clad/23

Edited by Evilnemesis, 12 May 2014 - 09:26 PM.

[truepurple]

 

I also agree that Mr. Smith wasn't in love, he just took pity on the girl. He had no obligation to play the white knight and save the day.

Am I a bit sad that he didn't try anything? You bet I am! Compared to Karluk and Amira's story this is definitely more somber.

 

 

Well obligation is a relative term. Not even a gun to the head obligates anyone to do anything. You just have to be willing to pay the price for your actions or inactions , whether that be financial, relationship, legal, internal morals or whatever else.

 

But Smith was willing to marry her and give her a pricey token of affection, and discarded that pocketwatch instead when it fell through. If he did not love her, then he acted all the more foolish from the very beginning. It's pretty pathetic to marry someone and pretend to care about them just for pity's sake, it doesn't exactly make Smith look better.

 

But you could be right anyway. There is some subjective evidence in the story to this in my eyes, Maybe its a half truth. Smith was trying to convince himself of his love because he pitied her, hoping he would love her if he tried hard enough. Considering his life as a observer, maybe it was his chance to participate, and since he doesn't properly understand love himself...

 

People want different things in a manga, can't please everyone.

 

 

So true.

 

And thanks for saying some encouraging words. I hate being dog piled like this, such group think/mob mentality sometimes.

Edited by truepurple, 13 May 2014 - 04:40 PM.

[Evilnemesis]

Well obligation is a relative term. Not even a gun to the head obligates anyone to do anything. You just have to be willing to pay the price for your actions or inactions , whether that be financial, relationship, legal, internal morals or whatever else.

 

But Smith was willing to marry her and give her a pricey token of affection, and discarded that pocketwatch instead when it fell through. If he did not love her, then he acted all the more foolish from the very beginning. It's pretty pathetic to marry someone and pretend to care about them just for pity's sake, it doesn't exactly make Smith look better.

 

But you could be right anyway. There is some subjective evidence in the story to this in my eyes, Maybe its a half truth. Smith was trying to convince himself of his love because he pitied her, hoping he would love her if he tried hard enough. Considering his life as a observer, maybe it was his chance to participate, and since he doesn't properly understand love himself...

 

 

So true.

 

And thanks for saying some encouraging words. I hate being dog piled like this, such group think/mob mentality sometimes.

 

Obligation is very relative indeed.

 

It's very obvious to me he took pity on her. His first interaction with her right after her mother-in-law talked about her past points to that.

 

Have to say, I would pity her as well. She looks to be in her mid 20s, probably married first around 12-13 and went through 5 husbands in record time. We also see no children, literally her life has just been seeing people she was with die. And with the mother being old as she is, it's only a matter of time before she is truly alone.

 

I think Mr. Smith stayed as an observer for most of his journey, but it looks like he stayed in Karluk's pretty decent size settlement most of the time. The way he just casually talks with them and learn new words, the fact he never witnessed a marriage before the twin arc points to this.

 

I think he tried to convince himself to take her because it was the first time he saw something that could simply not pass as "culturally different" in his mind, the situation was just not okay no matter how you tried to spin it. He just wanted to be able to do something, and there's not much to do than to just take her with him, he doesn't belong here. And I think the value of his watch is a bit overestimated in my opinion, he said his family has a house in India, his family must be loaded.

 

So yes, I think what you said about trying to participate is clearly what he intended to do originally. Sort of "tap on the back" type of feeling. It's quite possible he doesn't understand love much, he looks rich and kind of "head in the cloud" sort of intellectual man.He's probably travelling off daddy's money as well. I highly doubt you can go on such a long trip even with the sponsorship of some university.

 

Heck, most marriage of the era, especially amongst the more fortunate was seldom about love, it's hard to know of something when you have very little notion of it.

 

 

I think both options that could be taken there ( to take, or not take her ) are both tough choices and I don't think Mr. Smith is painted too favourably as well. But I don't think that he's that bad honestly, this was just an encounter out of many in his life. It's entirely subjective to put certain encounters as  more valuable than others.

 

 

As for the throw of the watch I think he threw it because it was a gift meant to seal some kind of future / deal and it's a one time offer. She gave it back, so he throws it. Kind of how, you don't re-use rings of a prior marriage for a new one.

 

 

To make this situation better, I imagine in my head that this 2nd son of the asshole step-father is a good man and she'll be happy. That's my ending and I'm sticking to it!

 

 

Sorry if this is a bit all over the place, it's 1 AM and I keep going scroll back and trying to reply to your fragment of your posts.

Edited by Evilnemesis, 14 May 2014 - 05:32 AM.

[Tadao]

The title gave me too much information... o.o not surprising information, but still more information than I wished for x.x' Please be a bit more cryptic about the topic title, like 'opinions about his behavior?' or 'I disagree with his actions'. Now whenever the going gets tough I imagine Schmidt just fleeing (No, I have not read the posts, to avoid (further) spoilers).

[Pax Empyrean]

 

And thanks for saying some encouraging words. I hate being dog piled like this, such group think/mob mentality sometimes.

Maybe a lot of people are disagreeing with you because your claim is utterly stupid, and you've done nothing but display a willful disregard for the historicity of a manga that uses that historicity as a major selling point.

Some idiot claiming the world is flat would complain about "group think" just as easily.

[homogenized]

But of course

Maybe a lot of people are disagreeing with you because your claim is utterly stupid, and you've done nothing but display a willful disregard for the historicity of a manga that uses that historicity as a major selling point.

Some idiot claiming the world is flat would complain about "group think" just as easily.

But of course. Dismissive labels give one a "valid" excuse to avoid thinking of the possibility of being wrong. Gotta stave off that cognitive dissonance.

[truepurple]

@Tadao

Sorry then. I am not sure how the title gives out too much information since it doesn't say when or how.(and even the general concept is clearly considered subjective) But if you felt or feared it gave out too much information, I apologize.

 

@homogenized.

I'll start considering the possibility of being wrong when others start considering the possibility of me being right, and stop using attack, including some personal attack, as a replacement for reason.

Edited by truepurple, 15 May 2014 - 03:55 PM.