73 replies to this topic

[truepurple]

There isn't much point in talking to you if you are just going to make up your own reality as you go along, and for that matter, seems like you make up what I am saying too, like someone having a conversation with himself.

[Pax Empyrean]

You say his friends were ready to help him when we got two solid pages of them explaining why he should give up on this girl, and I'm the one making up reality as I go along?

[truepurple]

Yes, you are. And you say friends, but that guide he's never met before and does most all of the talking. (a guide who plans to buy a spouse BTW, so is extra concerned with keeping the status quo. but probably could be bribed with enough money to help anyway) with just the young husband MC sometimes concurring dejectedly.   But they have great feelings for Smith, especially as his quick thinking helped save the MC bride, and are clearly hugely sympathetic.  So I am certain they would provide help if asked with enough seriousness (especially out of earshot of that guide) But like mentioned before, Smith didn't ask so neither him, nor us, can know what would have happened on the path not taken.

 

I know all of you have told me that this is a bad idea, but MY PENIS HAS MADE A DECISION and you guys had better learn that that's the ultimate authority around here. 

 

This really exemplifies the quality of your absurd aggressive argument that makes assumptions all around and barely reads, if at all, to what other people type. What point is there in trying to discuss stuff with someone who says absolute garbage like this?

 

So you think Smith was only willing to take her with him for sex, eh? Do you have even a tiny itsy bitsy shred of evidence to support this outrageous (and highly insulting to the character) claim? I on the other had, can show you loads of proof/pages to the contrary. Also, "all of you" is a great mischaracterization of things (like I pointed out at the beginning of this post) Finally, I would find it difficult to come up with a coarser, ruder, reply if I tried, I guess it comes naturally to you.

Edited by truepurple, 20 September 2013 - 12:08 AM.

[Reddeath]

So Tarasu wouldn't stay just because you say so, what a lazy argument.  "To stay with her mother in law", yeah... no, she was willing to leave her step mom before this, remember? Plus it was her mother in laws choice to marry, and it's her mother in law who wants her to be with Smith. The only person left in her life that she respects, besides Smith, is that step mom, and this is what she wants anyway, so she could definitely be convinced to go with Smith.

 

She was willing to leave her mother-in-law because at that time, Tarasu didn't have a stepdad who hates the guy she likes, and her mother-in-law wasn't being manhandled by her new stepdad. Please remember, that there are two different situations the "Before-Stepdad" time and the "After Stepdad" time. Never forget the extremely controlling STEPDAD who, by the way, I REPEAT wasn't tying down Tarasu when she agreed to marry Smith because at that time the stepdad didn't have any authority over her. 

There's a difference between being able to do something and actually doing it. It's easy enough to say that the mother-in-law would go with them, but what about ACTUALLY going with them? What are they going to do? Travel by horse with an aging mother-in-law? Yeah, sounds nice. It's not like the guide would be there to help them by the way since Smith wouldn't even be able to go to his destination with a kidnapped unmarried woman and a newly married woman. 

By the way, now that I mention it, Smith might've even be charged for kidnapping and be persecuted as a criminal if he took away Tarasu. And you know about how the people in the comic are always so eager to help, right? Well, they wouldn't know the full story and would be more than willing to help their own people, as in, the STEPFATHER and well, guess what would happen to Smith, Tarasu and the mother-in-law? That's right!! Busted!! Oh, how did you guess? What a happy ending, am I right?

 

Quote

 

Cultural ideals are absolute

Earlier I disproved this empty statement by point out how people in this comic have already broken cultural ideals and how there is no cultural ideal enforcement magic. Though even if I hadn't, you are saying something with no bases, making claims without substance behind them. But I did disprove this claim before you even made it, which makes said claim even more worthless and lazy.

If you mean the earlier couple....you do know that when Amira was being manhandled by her brother and tribesmen, at first she was resisting but then freezes up when someone asks if she's disrespecting her father, right? 

And also, I am saying something with basis and substance behind them. Culture is absolute. I've got thousands of years of Middle Eastern and Asian history to back this up. I mean, have you even read current news? It's still the same. Women are still considered inferior in some countries. In some countries, there would literally be bombings to prevent women from going to school. Search it up. It didn't even happen a century ago or a decade ago. It was in this year. It happens. Culture is different everywhere. I'm not going to write a research paper for you just because you can't search it up yourself. 

If you're going to accuse my arguments of having no backing, then please provide proof for your own points. You didn't "disprove" any of my claims by the way. You said that people in the manga already broke the cultural ideals but you yourself never provided any examples. Talk about hypocritical. Also, do a bit of research beforehand, because I've been trying to get it through that culture is absolute and I guess I didn't emphasize it enough so maybe a bit of google search would help. You'll even learn a bunch about current events through this too. Well actually, more than that, you'll learn a bunch of just history too. Since, remember? Thousands of years of history? 

 

[Pax Empyrean]

I'll start off by confessing a mistake of geography. These people are still Turks, but they're on the other side of the Caspian, around modern Uzbekistan. I was under the impression that Smith was traveling from Turkey to India, not the other way around. This means that they're probably about a thousand miles away from the closest Arabs.
 

Yes, you are. And you say friends, but that guide he's never met before and does most all of the talking. (a guide who plans to buy a spouse BTW, so is extra concerned with keeping the status quo. but probably could be bribed with enough money to help anyway) with just the young husband MC sometimes concurring dejectedly.

They back him up completely. They're not happy because it sucks for their friend, but they're not even close to suggesting that he try to run away with her. Ali could probably be bribed to do anything, since he seems like kind of a shady character considering how he passed the bill for dinner off to the commander of the guard, who almost certainly isn't going to pay it.
 

But they have great feelings for Smith, especially as his quick thinking helped save the MC bride, and are clearly hugely sympathetic.

And even so they still tell him that she can't go against her father. You're expecting them to act like modern Westerners. They would very likely see a "rescue" attempt as a terrible idea that would only bring misery on the two of them, and they would quite likely try to talk him out of it for his own good. If one of your friends wants to do something really stupid and self-destructive, do you help them do it or do you try to stop them because they are your friend and you care about them?

 

 

But like mentioned before, Smith didn't ask so neither him, nor us, can know what would have happened on the path not taken.

They told him he was being cruel to try to press the issue as much as he had. You're saying he should have gone even further.

 

 

So you think Smith was only willing to take her with him for sex, eh? Do you have even a tiny itsy bitsy shred of evidence to support this outrageous (and highly insulting to the character) claim? I on the other had, can show you loads of proof/pages to the contrary. Also, "all of you" is a great mischaracterization of things (like I pointed out at the beginning of this post) Finally, I would find it difficult to come up with a coarser, ruder, reply if I tried, I guess it comes naturally to you.

I'm pointing out that trying to get her to run away with him is beyond rude. I gave an example of a line to show just how utterly ridiculous it would be for him to attempt what you are saying he should have done. You're giving me shit about being disrespectful of these characters when you're saying he should try to get a girl to run away with him against her father's wishes? You don't think it's a big deal because you don't respect the culture to begin with, so when these 19th century Arabs Turks actually act like 19th century Arabs Turks you say that the whole thing is illogical and call Smith a wimp for not disregarding their cultural norms and trying to force the issue.
 

And you say friends, but that guide he's never met before and does most all of the talking.

Here is everything the guide said:
But he sure is a cruel man. If he was just a relative, he'd have no say. Yeah. It would be all fine, if he liked you, but that's not the case, right? Don't be so cruel. He's her father. She can't go against him.

Here is everything Karluk said:
Her mother married him, right? But because he married her mother, and is now her father, he gets to decide the partner for his daughter. Umm... yes, it's his role. So she really can't decide on a partner herself. Yeah. She can't do that. Especially not as a woman.

And you think this is "most of the talking"? Amira and Pariya chipped in a little, as well. Amira helped Karluk with a word he was struggling to think of, and Pariya (who is easily the one who chafes hardest against social expectations) told him that this means he is dumped. So no, the guide didn't do most of the talking. You can be sure that if Pariya thought a "rescue" was a good idea, she'd have spoken up. She has no filter at all between her brain and her mouth.
 

(a guide who plans to buy a spouse BTW, so is extra concerned with keeping the status quo. but probably could be bribed with enough money to help anyway)

That's not how this works. The transfer of money upon marriage was a very common thing in a great many cultures throughout history, including across medieval Europe. Technically the guide is trying to save money for a dower or a brideprice (depending on who the money goes to), while a dowry is given by the bride's parents, so this is actually a minor translation mistake. In any case, it was a mix of inheritance and insurance. Often, the law actually required this for a marriage to be legally recognized. Saying that he's planning to 'buy a spouse' because he's saving his money would be an incredible insult to him and to any woman he married, about on par with telling modern newlyweds that marriage is an institution where the wife becomes a long-term prostitute in exchange for financial security. Slavery still existed at the time, and wives were quite distinct from slaves.

Edited by Trebor, 23 September 2013 - 05:48 AM.
Removing abuse

[truepurple]

If you mean the earlier couple....you do know that when Amira was being manhandled by her brother and tribesmen, at first she was resisting but then freezes up when someone asks if she's disrespecting her father, right? 

 

She was taken by surprise and froze up, yes, but once she learned the fate of her sister, she resisted heartily, as evidenced when one of those male relatives found her in the village and tried to drag her off. Even after she froze she resisted during that time. No amount of respect for her fathers decision was going to cause her to go from the guy she likes and his good family to a horrible death sentence. She went against that culture of obeying her fathers decision.

 

You said that people in the manga already broke the cultural ideals but you yourself never provided any examples. Talk about hypocritical.  

 

You got selective reading skills or something?  I provided two major incidents of people defying cultural ideals at the same time I said that. The culture says a marriage is forever. They trying to break up that marriage because of economical and political reasons. They claimed that the marriage wasn't holding unless she was with child, but I am sure this is foundless, just a excuse they cooked up. They went against cultural ideals.

 

And that deal with the Russians, enemy of their culture for weapons to steal land, kill people. I am sure lots of cultural conventions say this is wrong, but they did it anyway. Then that backstabbing guy attacks his own allies, against cultural ideals again.

 

OK, did you read it now?  Are you actually paying attention to what I type?

 

 

Pax Empyrean:

These people are still Turks, but they're on the other side of the Caspian, around modern Uzbekistan. I was under the impression that Smith was traveling from Turkey to India, not the other way around. This means that they're probably about a thousand miles away from the closest Arabs.

 

That really doesn't matter. You're just being anal, the culture is similar enough for this conversation.

 

I'm pointing out that trying to get her to run away with him is beyond rude.

 

But what you implied, well basically said, in the crudest possible language is, that 'Smith was only interested in Tarasu for sex'. Take responsibility for your own words.

 

Saying that he's planning to 'buy a spouse' because he's saving his money would be an incredible insult to him and to any woman he married, about on par with telling modern newlyweds that marriage is an institution where the wife becomes a long-term prostitute in exchange for financial security.

 

If said women truly was a gold digger, someone who is marrying a old rich guy strictly just for money, and there are such people, then such a accusation would not be far off.

 

Similarly it is buying a spouse. He even admitted that it really doesn't matter if he doesn't have someone in mind, once he has the funds, actually finding a bride will be easy. 

 

Its basically treated like women are a drain on resource, a useless extra mouth to feed if not acting like a wife. The dowery is recompensation for the cost of raising a useless girl, but its also buying said daughter.  Some fathers might care about their daughters and have the financial luxury of allowing their daughters to marry someone they love, or at least like. Otherwise its all about money, and ties to money, and ties to power It's selling/buying a bride. They may or may not take offense at having it put like that, but that is still what it is.

 

You can see it nowadays where male dominated culture still exists, girl babies actually being killed because boys are so much more desirable. Boys holding the future of the family while girls are just a extra mouth to feed until being sold for marriage.

 

cultural ideals are absolute

 

Culture is fluid because people aren't static. People constantly struggle to improve the lot of themselves and the people they care about, things like "cultural ideals" often take a back seat to this basic human instinct. If not completely ignored, cultures are bent, twisted, changed, picked and chosen from to suit the individuals. Culture is constantly being reinvented.

 

If this statement of 'cultural ideals being absolute' were true, then jails would be a hell of alot more empty then they are now.

Edited by truepurple, 21 September 2013 - 02:28 AM.

[Pax Empyrean]

You got selective reading skills or something?  I provided two major incidents of people defying cultural ideals at the same time I said that. The culture says a marriage is forever. They trying to break up that marriage because of economical and political reasons. They claimed that the marriage wasn't holding unless she was with child, but I am sure this is foundless, just a excuse they cooked up. They went against cultural ideals.

 

And that deal with the Russians, enemy of their culture for weapons to steal land, kill people. I am sure lots of cultural conventions say this is wrong, but they did it anyway. Then that backstabbing guy attacks his own allies, against cultural ideals again.

You're trying to make an argument for what you think they would do based on a desperate move by the antagonists. It's like saying that because drug addicts will steal from family members to support their habit, it's a normal thing for anyone to steal from family. No, it's not; it's reprehensible, and the actions of Amira's family are not in any way representative of cultural norms. The defiance of social norms is a univeral characteristic among villains. You can't use them to say that the norms never existed or held sway among decent people like Amira and Karluk.

 

 

That really doesn't matter. You're just being anal, the culture is similar enough for this conversation.

So your response is "Meh, Arabs and Turks are close enough to the same thing." And you expect anyone to take you seriously?

 

 

Similarly it is buying a spouse. He even admitted that it really doesn't matter if he doesn't have someone in mind, once he has the funds, actually finding a bride will be easy.

 

He said that he couldn't consider it without having the money first. Some people actually consider whether they can afford to get married before they start looking for a spouse. He says that he's sure there will be someone for him because he is hardworking and he's not picky. Have you missed what sparked this whole discussion in the first place? If her father doesn't approve of him, he's got no chance. It's not just "buying a spouse". More than anything, it's a way of handling inheritance before the parents are actually dead. Resources are needed to raise children, so the parents pass theirs on to their own children once they are ready to start their own families. It makes a great deal of sense to do things this way, and has nothing at all to do with "buying a spouse."
 

Its basically treated like women are a drain on resource, a useless extra mouth to feed if not acting like a wife. The dowery is recompensation for the cost of raising a useless girl, but its also buying said daughter.  Some fathers might care about their daughters and have the financial luxury of allowing their daughters to marry someone they love, or at least like. Otherwise its all about money, and ties to money, and ties to power It's selling/buying a bride. They may or may not take offense at having it put like that, but that is still what it is.

For fuck's sake, a dowry is paid by the bride's parents. This is a translation error, and you missed it. You can't even spell "dowry" right.

You almost certainly missed it, but when her father was kicking Smith out, he mentioned that he would provide a dowry she could be proud of. He's not turning Smith away because he's holding out for more money; he's actually going to be assuming a financial responsibility for her.
 

Culture is fluid because people aren't static.

Since we're dealing with a historical setting, we know how these things go. They aren't going to have a spontaneous reevaluation of their culture for the sake of your favored ship, because where these people live, they're still following these traditions.

http://www.ingentaconnect.com/content/berghahn/antmid/2011/00000006/00000001/art00006

It's not "wimping out" to respect the traditions of a culture in which you are a guest, especially when your life depends on it. It's completely stupid to think that his friends would actually help him do something that they would find abhorrent. These people aren't Westerners, ok? Amira agreed to marry a twelve year old boy that she had never met, and it's working out well for them. They're not going to just up and decide to go chasing after some notion of marriage driven by infatuation. That's a relatively modern development, completely foreign to these people. Smith recognizes this because he's not as stupid or as culturally oblivious as you are. He can tell, as anyone with two functioning brain cells to rub together could tell, that they aren't going to help him do something that they would think is a bad idea.

Edited by Trebor, 23 September 2013 - 05:37 AM.
Remove abusive language

[truepurple]

Not only villains defy cultural norms, if you want to see a mass move against cultural norms that can in no way be described as villainish, look at the 60's. But there are many other examples too. And people might still be following certain traditions, but don't think these things change over time.

Edited by truepurple, 21 September 2013 - 10:48 AM.

[Pax Empyrean]

Not only villains defy cultural norms, if you want to see a mass move against cultural norms that can in no way be described as villainish, look at the 60's. But there are many other examples too. And people might still be following certain traditions, but don't think these things change over time.

When I say "All villains do X" that does not mean "Only villains do X." 

Now, there is no question that those norms were very strong at the time, and that they have persisted into the present day. The 60s were a fucking cultural trainwreck. STDs became widespread, New Age bullshit strongly influenced the zeitgeist, and divorce rates shot up so fast it looked like the new national sport. We're still dealing with the repurcussions.

Remember that you're looking for information about Turks, not Arabs, and that the tradition in question is brideprice, not dowry, and certainly not "buying a wife."

Edited by Trebor, 23 September 2013 - 05:38 AM.
Remove abusive language

[ElectricApple]

There's no point in arguing with the guy Pax, he just wants a disney ending with the blonde, blue-eyed westerner showing the backwards, barbarians the error of their traditions and values. The reason most people enjoy this manga is the level of attention that the author gives to realistically portraying 19th century Steppe life. Everyone knows that Smith is eventually going to get with that girl somehow! Why do you have to whine about it not happening immediately? He's not a hero, he's not Indiana Jones, he's a researcher. I'd be disappointed if the author chose to subvert both her characterization of Mr. Smith, the context of the history in her setting, and the spirit of the manga. If you've read her other big work Emma, then you'd know that a major theme in both these works is the conflict individuals have with their society and the rules imposed upon them. A gallant rescue, proceeded by them making out while riding into the sunset together would've been a joke, a complete slap in the face to everything the author wants to discuss. 

[Pax Empyrean]

I wouldn't count on them ever getting together, really. It would be cool if Smith found some way to do it in such a way that it doesn't spit on the culture (and subsequently the historicity of the manga) but I don't see how that could work out. Her mother asked him to move on as well, so it would be pretty harsh for him to keep trying to matter how he goes about it.

[truepurple]

Pax Empyrean:

What I said was to show how outrageous it would be for him to put himself above their cultural expectations like that. 

 

No, what you said was

 

Pax Empyrean:

I know all of you have told me that this is a bad idea, but MY PENIS HAS MADE A DECISION and you guys had better learn that that's the ultimate authority around here.

 

Which is no different then saying that Smith was only interested in her for sex, that he would only take her with him because he wanted to have sex with her.

 

It's funny for someone with such a nasty potty mouth that can't but help greatly insult in the crudest language, the person he's talking to just about every paragraph, who clearly can't manage anything like a civil discussion, is judging and greatly looking down on, the cultural values of the 60's etc. Someone who clearly wouldn't know culture if it slapped him in the face. I would normally be willing to get into how your argument of higher divorce rate means the hippy movement was trash, is horribly flawed, (along with replying to things you said about the OT) but as I already mentioned, you lack the will and/or ability to have a civil conversation.

Edited by truepurple, 22 September 2013 - 03:45 PM.

[Pax Empyrean]

There was some stuff here, but the admin was too lazy to filter out what was abuse and what wasn't. So basically:

 

Edited by Trebor, 23 September 2013 - 05:41 AM.
Abuse

[truepurple]

For the record, I never suggested Smith think with his penis. You're trying to justify saying something wildly inappropriate that at the very least implies Smith only wants to have sex with Tarasu, if not outright says it.

 

If you want to showcase something, learn how to, because you failed miserably, and now are just making excuses while typing increasingly inappropriately things.(and the excuse of, "I simply choose not to have anything like a civil conversation" is not covered by the rules, which fits with how to try to argue your side of the discussion too, typing things that don't fit)

Edited by truepurple, 22 September 2013 - 09:17 PM.

[Pax Empyrean]

For the record, I never suggested Smith think with his penis.

No, you said that he should disregard the customs of the culture to do what he wanted to do. You're just ignorant about the customs (which you think involve "buying a wife") and the culture (which you think is freaking Arabic) entails.
 

If you want to showcase something, learn how to, because you failed miserably,

Oh yeah? I'm pretty sure that what I posted qualifies as a demonstration of culture.

Edited by Trebor, 23 September 2013 - 05:40 AM.
Removing abuse

[truepurple]

In early US history there was slavery and many extremely looked down on those of dark skin. The way you say it, you could call this a culture. But despite this "culture" people tried to escape or otherwise defy their "masters", said persons were not villains or bad people for defying this "culture".

 

What you are talking about is a mindset, that looked down on women to a extreme degree. But that doesn't mean it was totally inescapable or inevitable. Nor is it something that needs to be respected. It is not what I would call "culture". This mindset of looking down on a section of humans amongst them is a extremely common phenomena found across cultures and looks the same whether it be turkish or arab., so no, it really does not matter.(and only a snob would brow beat that particular detail)

 

First of all forget taking the mother with them since there was no need. Tarasu's step mother choose to marry and wanted Tarasu  to go with Smith, so it is a reasonable presumption Tarasu could have been convinced to go without her step mother, especially at her step mothers urging.

 

Reddeath:

If the couple helped them, they and their family would've been shamed when it was found out that they were hiding a runaway wife and woman.

 

 

Like those guys were shamed for trying to steal the wife in the beginning. Oh wait, they were just driven out of town is all.  Or like how those guys were shamed for trying to destroy a town and steal land using the enemy of their culture, russian weapons, oh right, no shame was applied there.

 

Reddeath:

kidnapped unmarried woman

 

Kidnapped means against that persons will, it wouldn't be against Tarasu's will. And how in hell is anyone they would meet suppose to know that she has a disapproving step step father a hundred miles back?

 

 

As far as law goes, can you quote me the turkish law there and then, about running away with a unmarried girl? I am not saying such a law does not exists, but you are saying there is such a law at that time and place, so please enlighten me with the details.

 

And the comic is pretty clear that things like laws are a joke. And considering that young guy is the relative center of his family and of influence, shame for standing up for a friend, even if its technically considered something of a transgression against mindset and law would be forgiven by family and community, assuming they even learned of it in the first place. But considering there is no such thing as phones here or anything else, simple messages take forever to reach someone even when you know who to send them to, it is not reasonable to presume it would become widely known of his help to Smith in the first place.

 

OK lets go over the claims made about why it was no good for Smith to try to run off with Tarasu and how just about all of them are discredited because they were never explored in the first place.

All that was done was to have a conversation about it where the guide did most of the talking and basically said 'You can't go against it'

 

Smith's friends, the young family, would not help Smith.

 

Tarasu would not go with Smith for what ever reason.

 

Since neither were asked directly, we can not know that. And it is unreasonable  to assume their refusals.

 

Smith would need commando level skills to go in and run off with her otherwise he would most definitely be killed.

 

This is a baseless  and rather absurd assumption. I have already specified how it should be relatively easy to find her alone and unguarded.

 

Smith would be chased by vigilantes, or russian officers, or some kind of law, that have nothing better to do with their day then track down guys who run off with step step daughters for over hundreds of miles.

 

No where in the short conversation was this even mentioned as a possibility. And its clear from reading this comic that this area is pretty lawless. Communities may gather around to deal with issues they care about, like someone coming in to steal a bride of a important family, as though the community itself was being looked down on. But I find it hard to imagine the ire of the community would be worked up to chase over great distances, Smith because he ran off with Tarasu, some unmarried nobody and a foreigner (who are often given more latitude with not following local customs) especially with the quiet help of that family. The only way someone would give chase IMO is if the step step dad paid/hired them to, but he doesn't seem like the kind who would throw money around like that, it would not be cheap or easy to track someone down over great distances over desert without a clue as to their destination. So all need be done is plan things so that they get a good enough head start. 

 

But again, this was never even presented as a possible reason to not run off with her. So it is unreasonable to say this was a reason Smith chose to not act.

 

They would be able to go nowhere because of a magical scarlet letter A branded on them that can't wash off, meaning anywhere they go they would be ostracised to say the least.

 

OK I used some hyperbole in stating the other side of this with the magic bit, but that is only to emphasize the point that no one would know. Smith was assumed to be a doctor with only basic first aid knowledge,(very unrealistic BTW, as well as irresponsible)  so for anyone to know that Tarasu isn't his wife or whatever he claimed she was, is impossible.

 

As we discuss all the supposed reasons it wouldn't work for Smith to run off with Tarasu,  it just becomes more clear how little Smith looked into doing so in the first place.

 

Should we respect...

Spoiler

http://www.enjoyturkey.com/info/culture/Life_Style.htm

"Men could marry or live with as many women as they liked, kill women and even bury new born girls alive"

Add to that female genitalia mutilation and many other things. 

Not culture! Nor something that deserves preservation in a comic with some kind of reverence.

Edited by truepurple, 30 September 2013 - 12:45 PM.

[Pax Empyrean]

You know nothing of the culture in question and care not at all for the historical integrity of the story itself. Smith giving up on a woman when everyone he knew (including her own mother, who cares for her dearly) told him to give up on her is not an act of cowardice, but maturity.

I think this story is excellent, all the more so because the author does not compromise the authenticity of her setting and the integrity of her story by appealing to foolish readers who want fairy tales.

Except as a deserving outlet for verbal abuse, you literally aren't worth talking to, so I'm done. Enjoy your little pity party.

[necro12999999]

These types of threads are hilarious I swear.

 

[Pax Empyrean]

You missed out on the insulting poetry bits that were removed by the moderator. They were definitely the high point.

[truepurple]

I am not surprised that you would describe random swearing and other crap you typed, "poetry", it fits perfectly with your gutter tastes and foul disposition.