73 replies to this topic

[truepurple]

Smith, or whatever that researchers name is, certainly picked a bad battle to not fight.

 

He should have gone in there and ran off with her. She wants to go with him, she has no feelings of loyalty to that slime ball step step father (married to her step mother, neither of them are actually related to her) She has loyalty to step-mom, but she wouldn't stop her from going with Smith. Just sneak in during the night or intercept her when shes doing choirs or something. It shouldn't even be that hard to do on his own with guide and horses to flee at ready, but with his connections to help, even easier, I am sure he could convince them to help with enough determination. 

 

It feels like the comic is saying there's a good side to men always owning women, or at least other sides that compensate for that, but here is definitely a place where it should have been fought, WTH smith!

 

It's been a interesting read, but this part really disappointed me and made me question whether to quit reading, I in part decided to keep at it hoping he would change his mind and turn around, but it's not looking good.

 

Also, I wonder if the actual people of this place and time practiced female genital mutilation (still a common place practice in many parts of the world even now)  Well, I supposed even if that were the case, the author would ignore it.

 

 

[StoneDeathGaze]

That's the reason why i stopped reading this manga.

We have to give him the benefit of the doubt though. He approached that situation scientifically. He only wanted to observe the people.

On the other hand he didn't pick that region randomly. He had to have some reason in picking it, got his education and spent time and money studying it. In exchange thanks to a coincidence he meet a wonderful woman and fell in love. And then he wimps out...

Maybe in the future chapters he comes back and saves her. I don't care though, because I am not coming back to this title.

[Pax Empyrean]

"OMG WHY DIDN'T 19TH CENTURY STEPPE TRIBES CONFORM TO MY 21ST CENTURY CULTURAL VALUES!? SO DUMB!"

This thread is retarded. Family obligations were huge in that culture. Running away with a guy is unthinkable in this setting. Tough shit, that's history.

It's not saying that it's good for men to own women, it's just telling a story with attention to historical detail, and running away to get married would have gone completely against that.

[truepurple]

It wasn't unthinkable for him, and it wouldn't have been unthinkable for her, all considering.  She hated the pig, and she had nothing to lose by going against "cultural values", she was willing to go with Smith before this, only difference was this time it would be leaving with stealth and leaving behind a angry pig she hates anyway. And what family obligations? Her step step mom even wouldn't have been against it, she wanted those two together even.

 

OMG, people go against their own culture all the time, go figure!  Right now in the latest chapter are groups of people going against cultural values by using those guns and cannons from a cultural enemy, the russians, by betrayal etc. At the beginning they were going against cultural values by trying to get that girl back who was already sold and married. Believe it or not, "cultural values" are not set in stone where people get struck by lightning from above when they go against the code written in stone.

 

He approached that situation scientifically. He only wanted to observe the people.

 

Sure, but then he fell in love with their people, and even a specific girl. If it was just observation, he wouldn't have been willing to take her with him in the first place.

Edited by truepurple, 14 September 2013 - 12:31 PM.

[Reddeath]

Her stepmother might have been okay with it but that doesn't make running away okay. If she had run away it would bring shame to the family. Since the mother married the old man, that would mean that not only does the mother have to bear the shame but also the father. Judging by that old guy's personality and actions so far, how do you think that would've gone? He would be absolutely infuriated. And then who knows what he would do then? Yell at the mother? Maybe even beat her? The society at that time was an absolute patriarchy. Beating would have probably even been justified in the father's eyes. Knowing that, I don't think the girl would've been able to leave her stepmother alone. And thus, we have the ending we got. 

[truepurple]

Father? You calling that step step guy a father?

 

If he was the type to yell and beat on her, he would do so anyway, those types don't need excuses, they just use them to pacify the female.

 

Anyway, you don't know if she would have gone with him or not, Smith doesn't know whether she would have gone with him or not, because he never even tried, because of his own failing.

Edited by truepurple, 15 September 2013 - 02:30 AM.

[RaShayRitto]

I think there's some significance to him throwing the watch away. Likely she'll later try to track him down and find that as an indication of his route 

 

but yeah dude is a straight up wuss

[Reddeath]

I don't think that me calling him a father was really a crucial point that I was trying to convey. I merely got tired after typing stepmother and mother so many times that I didn't want to type stepfather. If you review my earlier message, you can tell that after using stepmother a few times, I start using mother. But if you so insist on me using stepfather, I won't mind. I'm also going to be using mother-in-law instead of stepmother now, since in the manga, Tarasu calls her "mother-in-law". 



The mother-in-law knew that the wives would be treated horribly. If she knew it, Tarasu would've known it too. If the stepfather would also beat the mother-in-law, I don't think that Tarasu would want to leave her mother-in-law alone. After all, Tarasu chose to live with her mother-in-law instead of her own family. This already shows that Tarasu really loves and values her mother-in-law. 

Smith was also told this. He knows how much Tarasu cares for her mother-in-law. So I don't think that Smith wimped out. He just already knew the answer to a question he didn't need to ask. 



 

[truepurple]

I never said calling him father had bearing on your point.

 

As I said, if he was going to abuse her, he was going to do so regardless of whether Tarasu was there or not. Especially if he is marrying her off to his son (if she is technically his daughter, step incest?) then she wouldn't even be able to be around her mother in law that much, your own picture undoes you. (btw, what chapter is it from?)

 

The mother in law probably married that vile guy for her sake.

 

And it appears you are saying Tarasu would throw that sacrifice away so that she shares the same miserable fate, all the while not being able to help her or even be with her. And Smith is somehow suppose to instinctively know that Tarasu is crazy enough to disrespect her step-moms sacrifice and not even bother asking/trying.

 

http://vatoto.com/read/_/109725/otoyomegatari_v3_ch17_by_scantily-clad/6

Step mom "I wanted you to stay by tarasu's side"

 

http://vatoto.com/read/_/109725/otoyomegatari_v3_ch17_by_scantily-clad/10

http://vatoto.com/read/_/109725/otoyomegatari_v3_ch17_by_scantily-clad/12

Does this look like a women who is resigned to stay in this situation to you?!? He's literally dragging her away.

 

There is no reason to think that Tarasu wouldn't have gone with him, for us, or for Smith, and absolutely certainly not to a degree where it isn't worth trying/asking.

Besides, the conversation about what to do or not do went like this. Notice not one word was said about her not being willing to leave the situation because of her step mom. I don't see a single thing for you to base your premise on, Reddeath.

 

This comic started out with people trying to take a girl already married unwillingly away from her husband and his family. So I see absolutely no reason it couldn't have had something like a repeat performance with Smith try to take her away from the evil step step father when she's willing to go and there isn't a large family and a village between em, so therefore successful this time.

Edited by truepurple, 16 September 2013 - 10:08 AM.

[Pax Empyrean]

Father? You calling that step step guy a father?

 

If he was the type to yell and beat on her, he would do so anyway, those types don't need excuses, they just use them to pacify the female.

This is ridiculous. People don't stop following cultural norms just because some guy is an asshole. Furthermore, there is a world of difference between "I'll treat you like property" and "I'll throw acid on your face or kill you because you embarassed the family." You can't just dismiss this sort of thing by claiming that they would have done it anyway; that's not how it works. The whole point of using violence to enforce social norms is that it's conditional. If you follow the rules you get treated like property. If you try to run away with some guy, you're dead. Again, tough shit, but that's history. I have more respect for the mangaka because she doesn't try to sugar-coat the culture.

On top of that, do you need to be reminded that the guy was threatening Smith with a gun if he didn't leave? Who do you think would help him run away with a girl whose father didn't approve? Yeah, he's not her real father, but he's in the position and commands the same authority. Again, cultural thing. Just because he's a jerk doesn't mean they don't respect the position he's in.

[truepurple]

Sugar coat? Acid coating isn't any more realistic. By this, I am not saying it either way the story could have gone, is either sugar or acid. But you throw out the term "sugar coat" like its suppose to prove something.

 

 

Who do you think would help him run away with a girl whose father didn't approve?

 

The main character couple would have helped him, and his family has power and connections. The guide guy might have been persuaded, but we don't know because Smith didn't even try.

 

 

On top of that, do you need to be reminded that the guy was threatening Smith with a gun if he didn't leave?

 

Do you need to be reminded where I said he waits till he can get her alone and runs off with her? So obviously he leaves, then comes back latter when he is prepared, and the step step guy isn't. The guy isn't going to post round the clock guards with guns next to Tarasu.

 

Its even possible he could have taken the step step mom with him (or they could have offered to take her with them, but then she tells Tarasu to go alone, that she will be alright) Smith gave up before trying anything at all, which was a absolute failure on his part, he failed himself and Tarasu. You might get all pessimistic saying they didn't stand a chance due to the magical powers of arab step culture, but it really is the ultimate achilles heel of pessimism to not try in the first place.

Edited by truepurple, 17 September 2013 - 05:11 AM.

[Pax Empyrean]

Sugar coat? Acid coating isn't any more realistic. By this, I am not saying it either way the story could have gone, is either sugar or acid. But you throw out the term "sugar coat" like its suppose to prove something.

 

I referenced acid because that shit happens, today, when a girl defies social convention. They literally throw acid in her face. Google it if you don't believe me.
 

The main character couple would have helped him, and his family has power and connections. The guide guy might have been persuaded, but we don't know because Smith didn't even try.

 

The main character couple who said that it's his role to decide, and that's the end of it? The ones who said that she can't go against him? That main character couple?

OH BOY LOOK AT THESE PEOPLE READY TO HELP: http://vatoto.com/read/_/109725/otoyomegatari_v3_ch17_by_scantily-clad/19

Hrm... it actually sort of looks like they're saying that she can't go against him, right after they told him that it's her father's role to pick a husband, not hers. I guess that's just a secret code for "LET'S LAUNCH A DARING COMMANDO-STYLE RESCUE MISSION!"
 

Do you need to be reminded where I said he waits till he can get her alone and runs off with her? So obviously he leaves, then comes back latter when he is prepared, and the step step guy isn't. The guy isn't going to post round the clock guards with guns next to Tarasu.

Or he tries to sneak up, gets spotted, and gets shot, which is the more likely outcome of your stupid fantasy.
 

Its even possible he could have taken the step step mom with him (or they could have offered to take her with them, but then she tells Tarasu to go alone, that she will be alright) Smith gave up before trying anything at all, which was a absolute failure on his part, he failed himself and Tarasu. You might get all pessimistic saying they didn't stand a chance due to the magical powers of arab step culture, but it really is the ultimate achilles heel of pessimism to not try in the first place.

Of course you wouldn't care about the historical accuracy of the setting, since you evidently know nothing about it. This is set in the Ottoman Empire. They're in central anatolia. These people aren't Arabs, they're Turks.

But whatever, let's try it! Even though everyone she knows would look down on her if she did it, and nobody would help them. What's the worst that could happen? Other than him getting shot and her being disgraced, I mean.

This story makes a point; that if her father says no, then that's it. End of romance. It's not Smith wimping out; when he talked to the people who you said would help him "rescue" her, they told him in no uncertain terms that it's his decision, not hers. That's a part of the culture. Somehow you missed this, and you'd rather see people doing things that make sense to your modern sensibilities rather than acting the way that people would in the time and place the story is set in.

Edited by Pax Empyrean, 17 September 2013 - 06:26 AM.

[truepurple]

It's clear he is sympathetic to Smith, and yes he says "yes, she can't go against her father" but that doesn't mean that it's physically impossible. Nor does it mean that he wouldn't help Smith if Smith really insisted on taking her with.

 

"commando style" is BS that you made up to ridicule me. It doesn't take commando skills to watch when someone is alone then run off with them.

 

Or he tries to sneak up, gets spotted, and gets shot, which is the more likely outcome of your stupid fantasy.

 

Not even. They have a relatively large plot of land with few people to work it. And I am sure step step guy  has plenty of stuff to manage himself. It would not be hard to find her alone aside from maybe step mother. Bullets don't go flying from nowhere. They could be well on the way before it's even discovered she's missing.

 

This story makes a point; that if her father says no, then that's the end of it.

 

You have a point there. The story is defying logic to make that point. But in reality that would not need to be the end of it, even if that somehow offends your historical sensibilities.

Edited by truepurple, 17 September 2013 - 02:23 PM.

[Pax Empyrean]

It's clear he is sympathetic to Smith, and yes he says "yes, she can't go against her father" but that doesn't mean that it's physically impossible. Nor does it mean that he wouldn't help Smith if Smith really insisted on taking her with.

He says that it's her father's role to make that decision, not hers. What part of "she really can't decide on a partner herself" is so hard for you to understand?

http://vatoto.com/read/_/109725/otoyomegatari_v3_ch17_by_scantily-clad/18

Smith complained about the way things turned out, and while they sympathized with him, they also told him in no uncertain terms that without the father's approval, nothing could be done. That's the end of it. Smith isn't stupid; he's going to trust the word of his friends on matters like this.

 

"commando style" is BS that you made up to ridicule me. It doesn't take commando skills to watch when someone is alone then run off with them.

He'd need to find her without getting spotted by a guy who would shoot him if he found out. Keep in mind that these people do have livestock, which makes sneaking around a lot harder to manage. So yeah, it would essentially require a commando raid.

Not only that, but what happens if they manage to pull it off? No family ties, no respect for the rules of the culture. An Englishman would be at a disadvantage to start with; would he live the rest of his life in a culture that he's just learning about, with none of the skills required to provide a living there? Would he take her back to England? The locals would probably look at the whole thing as a kidnapping because her father didn't approve, whether she wanted to go or not.

Not even. They have a relatively large plot of land with few people to work it. And I am sure step step guy  has plenty of stuff to manage himself. It would not be hard to find her alone aside from maybe step mother. Bullets don't go flying from nowhere. They could be well on the way before it's even discovered she's missing.

Or he could go wandering around looking for her and run into her father instead, then get shot. Maybe you're stupid enough to try something like that. If she were willing to throw away everything and run off with Smith, she could more easily sneak out on her own. But she doesn't, because running off with a guy against the wishes of her father is unthinkable given the culture in which the story takes place.

You have a point there. The story is defying logic to make that point. But in reality that would not need to be the end of it, even if that somehow offends your historical sensibilities.

It's not defying logic, and in reality events would have gone very much the way they did in the story. You're just bitching about it because you want a fairytale instead of a realistic story set in a different culture. You'd rather throw away the accurate presentation of the culture for the sake of two characters getting together, in a story where a huge focus is presenting the culture with a strong emphasis on historical verisimilitude. That's retarded. It's like taking a WW2 documentary and adding lasers; not that WW2 with lasers is inherently bad, but it's not something you just throw in there when you've been banking heavily on historical accuracy up until that point.

[truepurple]

I doubt you would be going on like this if it weren't for this based roughly on a historical background.  As though you fancied yourself guardian of all historical fact, news flash, it's a comic! And there is no historical fact in saying people never go against cultural norms. I've already mentioned how people have gone against cultural norms a number of times already in this comic.

 

 

Or he could go wandering around looking for her and run into her father instead, then get shot.

 

What, he's going to shoot him for being within his vicinity? "Oh, you from earlier, I don't like your face, your dead"  He'd only have reason to attack if he found them together or near the house (and I doubt she's only going to be inside the house) And if near the house, he is not likely to immediately attack.

 

Keep in mind that these people do have livestock, which makes sneaking around a lot harder to manage

 

That makes it easier. Someone has to tend these livestock, which means its easier to find step step guy and Tarasu apart.

 

Not only that, but what happens if they manage to pull it off? No family ties, 

 

How is that any different then when she was going to go with him before? She had and has only stepmom as a family tie and was willing to travel a great distance when travel was limited, she would have had to cut all ties even without step step guy being against it.  It's not like she could have flown home to visit step mom ever so often, or called her on the telephone. Once they traveled sufficient distance it becomes completely irrelevant who approves or doesn't approve at home.  

 

no respect for the rules of the culture.

 

How is running off with one girl mean that Smith can never respect any culture ever again? Your logic here is so wacky and nonsensical it blows my mind.

 

 

An Englishman would be at a disadvantage to start with; would he live the rest of his life in a culture that he's just learning about, with none of the skills required to provide a living there?

 

What are you talking about? 

 

Would he take her back to England?

 

Where he would take her, would be all the same places he would have taken her anyway, sans returning to visit that couple might require some stealth.

[Reddeath]

In the historical setting that this manga takes place in, tradition and cultural views are absolute. And when I mean absolute, I mean, if you break any of them it's shame in your family, your name and your reputation and everything else absolute. And when I mean that kind of absolute, I mean it's not just the "women stay in the kitchen" absolute. I mean, "women stay in the kitchen. do as you're told. man is the head and try to go against your father and you're screwed." absolute.

About the picture that I used, the stepfather did want Tarasu to marry his second son, but that was when he wan't married to the mother-in-law yet. I repeat, he wasn't married to the mother-in-law yet. The purpose of the picture that I used was to illustrate my point that the stepfather is a horrible person who treats the women of his family terribly. 

That being said, yes, even if Tarasu couldn't help her mother-in-law if she stayed with them, Tarasu would still stay, even if Smith asked if she wanted to leave with him. It is the fact that she can't do anything else but to be with her mother-in-law, which would make her stay with her mother-in-law. 

About the plan with Smith running away with both the mother-in-law and Tarasu, that's impossible. First of all, the mother-in-law is old. Travelling is going to be a nightmare for her, especially by horse. Second of all, the couple would not help them. That's because the couple is has the cultural ideals ingrained in them too. The cultural ideals as in women are to listen to the men of the family and are not to disobey. If the couple helped them, they and their family would've been shamed when it was found out that they were hiding a runaway wife and woman. 

Smith does not have status in the country he's in. He's a guest- a visitor. They're respected (sometimes) and welcomed (again, sometimes) but they do not have authority. This especially pertains to Smith who's merely a wanderer and doesn't even work for the government or anyone of power. 

Tarasu and Smith were doomed the moment the stepfather married the mother-in-law. 

Nobody would've been so naive to run away in that time period and situation. 

The mangaka knew that too. She decided to stick with a more realistic ending instead of an idealistic one. 

[ To put everything into simpler terms, I shall make a very crude flow chart:  Women have no authority-> Women MUST  obey male of family-> When told to marry and whom to marry, they must marry.-> Mother-in-law gets married to horrible guy.-> Tarasu MUST obey horrible guy.-> Smith is a foreigner and has no power.-> Horrible guy doesn't like Smith.-> Tarasu and Smith don't get married.-> Cultural ideals are absolute.-> Tarasu and Smith cannot make this into a sudden English drama by eloping and running away into the fields of grass and sheep.-> TADA!! That brings it into the ending we have now. ]

[truepurple]

That being said, yes, even if Tarasu couldn't help her mother-in-law if she stayed with them, Tarasu would still stay, even if Smith asked if she wanted to leave with him. It is the fact that she can't do anything else but to be with her mother-in-law, which would make her stay with her mother-in-law.

 

I guess I can't win against the magic of the world.... wait there is no magic in the world enforcing cultures, nor hypnotism. So Tarasu wouldn't stay just because you say so, what a lazy argument.  "To stay with her mother in law", yeah... no, she was willing to leave her step mom before this, remember? Plus it was her mother in laws choice to marry, and it's her mother in law who wants her to be with Smith. The only person left in her life that she respects, besides Smith, is that step mom, and this is what she wants anyway, so she could definitely be convinced to go with Smith.

 

Cultural ideals are absolute

 

Earlier I disproved this empty statement by point out how people in this comic have already broken cultural ideals and how there is no cultural ideal enforcement magic. Though even if I hadn't, you are saying something with no bases, making claims without substance behind them. But I did disprove this claim before you even made it, which makes said claim even more worthless and lazy.

Edited by truepurple, 19 September 2013 - 02:28 AM.

[Pax Empyrean]

What an idiot.

She could sneak off. She doesn't. The reason she doesn't is because defying her father is unthinkable to her, and everyone that Smith talks to confirms this. They want what's best for him, and they all tell him that it can't happen.

If you want the ship to happen so much, reason be damned, go write some shitty fanfiction. I'm sure you'd do a great job of depicting the lives of 19th century Turks, who you thought were Arabs.

[truepurple]

So you decided to argue against me, by arguing against yourself. She's used to listening to males, doesn't your concept of her sneaking off on her own defy the setting you have been going on about? And what if she sneaks off, only to find Smith gone? (and since he did wimp out and leave after that) Without Smith, she has nowhere to go. 

[Pax Empyrean]

So you decided to argue against me, by arguing against yourself. She's used to listening to males, doesn't your concept of her sneaking off on her own defy the setting you have been going on about? And what if she sneaks off, only to find Smith gone? (and since he did wimp out and leave after that) Without Smith, she has nowhere to go. 

I'm showing that if she were willing to defy her father and leave, she wouldn't need Smith's help to leave in the first place. And yes, that would go against the cultural values she has lived under her entire life; I'm showing that if she were willing to defy those, Smith's assistance would be irrelevant. He's traveling and trying to learn things, but in practical matters he's a liability.

And for the last time you idiot, Smith didn't "wimp out" by leaving. Everyone told him that there was nothing to be done. Keep in mind that he had just got out of a stay in prison, where he was arrested for basically no reason and would have been executed as a spy if a known family didn't speak up for him on his behalf. If he runs off with a girl, what do you think happens to him? You think he's going to keep being treated as a guest? You think he can evade or outrun these people? There's no way. She probably wouldn't have left with him in the first place, and it would have been a suicidal move to try it, even if he could get past the guy who would shoot him on sight for trying to steal his daughter.

He doesn't even have a dowry. Of course you didn't think of that, because you've got your head up your ass. If he did what you're suggesting, he would be committing a serious crime. As a foreigner, he'd certainly be executed. He was lucky they didn't kill him when they had him imprisoned before. Maybe he doesn't have your stupid childish delusions of invincibility?

"I'm going to run off with a girl against the wishes of her father even though this will almost certainly result in my death and severe negative consequences for her in the near future. I know all of you have told me that this is a bad idea, but MY PENIS HAS MADE A DECISION and you guys had better learn that that's the ultimate authority around here. If I didn't do this I would be 'wimping out,' you see."

Edited by Pax Empyrean, 19 September 2013 - 12:50 PM.