122 replies to this topic

[Breizh]

Woah he completely lost it :s

[MarcusMaranello]

I'm really hoping all the flashbacks equate to deathflags for Youngsoo, but at the same time the level of creepiness and tension he brings to scenes really moves the plot along.  He'll probably be the guy who survives and has to live with the past.

[svines85]

I'm really hoping all the flashbacks equate to deathflags for Youngsoo, but at the same time the level of creepiness and tension he brings to scenes really moves the plot along.  He'll probably be the guy who survives and has to live with the past.

Yeah, they certainly looked like that, I suppose we'll have to wait and see who (if anyone) got shot just then. Hard to say really, though if his character hasn't been taken out chances are he won't have much longer anyway.......he's clearly unstable and a danger to everyone it seems for sure now. 

 

I actually wondered if that  boy was going to allow him to threaten him again.......though not for long obviously, a good thing too. Squad leader's apparently gone completely nuts at this point. 

[carlosfeel]

i hope yougsoon dies, he is such a bad person i thought he was killed but no, come on is not fair, i hate that guy

[svines85]

i hope yougsoon dies, he is such a bad person i thought he was killed but no, come on is not fair, i hate that guy

Well yeah, can't hardly disagree with you there..........for now it looks like he's getting away with it, but we'll see what happens.

 

I'm not entirely sure one way or the other if the fallen's bodies were recovered yet or not, what we saw at the end of 39 was obviously a service for them but that doesn't necessarily mean the work needed to recover all those bodies has been done yet. Squad leader might just find himself having to answer some question if that time comes..................and he hasn't totally lost it and gone on a killing spree already by that point.  

[Cervance]

An interesting little article from 2011 I found when I was trying to look up military self-defense laws. I didn't find anything helpful, but this article is pretty amusing considering its similarities to the story. Middle school drop-outs being conscripted and a point-based exception system... wild.

 

Spoiler

 The Military Manpower Administration is planning to toughen regulations for conscription. So far men who had not at least completed middle school are exempt from the draft, but the new plan will include them in the pool of conscripts. 

Exceptional talents in sports and the arts who are exempt from military service when they win a single medal in a prestigious competition will now instead need to accumulate points on a prescribed scale. 

Kim Young-hoo, the head of the MMA, told reporters Wednesday the agency is pushing to amend the relevant law. "Within a range that does not adversely affect socially marginalized people and the disabled, we also are thinking about mobilizing those with just primary school education in the reserve force." 

Admitting that there has been criticism of the easy exemptions for talents in arts and sports, Kim said, "We plan to address this issue by granting the privilege to those who shows steady performance by introducing a point-based system."The Military Manpower Administration is planning to toughen regulations for conscription. So far men who had not at least completed middle school are exempt from the draft, but the new plan will include them in the pool of conscripts. 

Exceptional talents in sports and the arts who are exempt from military service when they win a single medal in a prestigious competition will now instead need to accumulate points on a prescribed scale. 

Kim Young-hoo, the head of the MMA, told reporters Wednesday the agency is pushing to amend the relevant law. "Within a range that does not adversely affect socially marginalized people and the disabled, we also are thinking about mobilizing those with just primary school education in the reserve force." 

Admitting that there has been criticism of the easy exemptions for talents in arts and sports, Kim said, "We plan to address this issue by granting the privilege to those who shows steady performance by introducing a point-based system."

 

In Youngsoo's (Squad Leader's) defense, it was Ha-il (bully) who got physical first. The very first thing Ha-il did when he saw Youngsoo was hit him with his rifle. Keep in mind that everyone was just attacked by cells, and Ha-il knows that Youngsoo is fairly unstable. And Ha-il attacked again, a second time with a rock before trying to kill him with his rifle. Youngsoo had to shoot in self-defense, while Ha-il could've resolved the situation peacefully a long time ago (by reporting Youngsoo the first time).

 

When you look at all of Youngsoo's actions objectively, there isn't much you can blame him for, and only one thing I wouldn't forgive him of. Pointing his rifle at Ha-il is no good, and he should've been heavily punished or discharged for it (Keep in mind Ha-il was the one who didn't report it). Besides that, though, Youngsoo is genuinely trying harder than any of the other student reservists. He's fulfilling his duties as a soldier and a leader to the best of his ability. Now, sexual harassment of an incapacitated female comrade is stupid, but hardly unforgivable. Ha-il is the offender here, turning so quickly to physical violence (a large step above verbal threats). 

 

In the end, I still blame the whole situation on the faulty chain of command. The Student Squad leaders where not given an appropriate rank to lead a squad on a mission, however simple it may seem. The idea of sending a squad of poorly trained teenagers with little information and no leadership is absurd, and suicidal. Hopefully things will change quickly and the Student Reservists will look more like a military unit and less like a casual Afterschool Activity. But, given this Manhua's title...

[Passerby]

Uh, I agree with you that Youngsoo has reasons for his actions, that he's been the victim of constant bullying by Il-ha and he only killed Il-ha out of self defense.

 

But how is sexual harassment of an incapacitated female hardly unforgiveable? Are you saying if some guy sexually harasses a girl and if another guy comes along to beat crap out of the sexual offender to save the girl, the second guy is the prime offender? Il-ha wouldn't have beat Youngsoo like that if Youngsoo didn't molest the girl in the first place. 

[PervySageChuck]

As requested by Cervance, I am visiting this forum to repeat what I posted in the comments section in response to his thoughts, so here it is:

 

 

 

I must admit that this is a well thought out point of view and I myself had forgotten about the bullying history in earlier chapters. 

 

Now, if only Youngsoo had NOT been drawn by the author to be so ugly and horrid looking, I might be able to have a bit more sympathy for this character.

 

But unfortunately,  I am a product of my upbringing and a little weasely-looking guy who frowns all the time is not going to inspire much of a sense of compassion in me for him, no matter how horrible his life had been up to now.

 

I wonder if this is the author's way to fuck with either our natural or our learned prejudices in how we react to what otherwise should have been a character worthy of our pity.

 

Interesting to think about, isn't it?

 

 

Addendum:  His molestation of the unconscious girl, as Passerby mentioned, is also a reason to inspire disgust with Youngsoo as a character in this story and further hinders any possible desire of mine to feel sorry for his history of being bullied.

 

I, myself, was bullied as a child and a youth, due to my being small and scrawny until I hit a growth spurt between eighth and ninth grades and while I may have grown up to become an extreme pervert, (And proud of it!!!),  I have NEVER done anything to or with a girl without her express permission or at her earnest request.

 

Also, while I did have naturally occurring thoughts of revenge on my own bullying tormentors, I realized that the best revenge was to become successful as an adult and watch them slowly deteriorate as their lives eventually self-destructed.  I took great pleasure in reading about how they either ended up in jail for their later criminal acts or died as a result of over-confident drug and alcohol abuse.

 

So basically, I am saying that how Youngsoo reacts to his bullying history prejudices me against him.

Edited by PervySageChuck, 14 December 2013 - 03:28 AM.

[Cervance]

Uh, I agree with you that Youngsoo has reasons for his actions, that he's been the victim of constant bullying by Il-ha and he only killed Il-ha out of self defense.

 

But how is sexual harassment of an incapacitated female hardly unforgiveable? Are you saying if some guy sexually harasses a girl and if another guy comes along to beat crap out of the sexual offender to save the girl, the second guy is the prime offender? Il-ha wouldn't have beat Youngsoo like that if Youngsoo didn't molest the girl in the first place. 

 

I definitely think Youngsoo deserved to get punished for sexual harassment, but not physically, seconds after a fight with a cell, by the person he hates the most. Rather, he needs to be punished by the authorities, under the law, not by a vigilante bully.

 

In this case, Youngsoo realizes what he's doing is wrong, and even if Il-Ha (I can't believe I've been spelling it backwards) didn't show up, Youngsoo would've done nothing worse than cop a feel before rescuing her. It's different from offenders who are looking for a power high, or offenders who don't feel guilty. Maybe I'm being objective to a fault here, but a little "CPR" isn't going to hurt the girl, after all. What I mean to say is, I think if he comes clean, he can be forgiven easily.

 

Let's also not forget Youngsoo saved her life. In this case, I feel he's a bit more heroic than Il-Ha, who resorts to violence at the drop of a dime. Remember earlier in the the story, when Il-Ha got into a fistfight close to the medium cell? It resulted in one of the first deaths. He's a violent bully, not a hero. The law exists for a reason, and Il-Ha was just a vigilante bully trying to control Youngsoo with force, instead of reporting him the first time there was an issue.

 

Far be it my intention to justify Youngsoo's mental instability. For what he's done, he needs to be discharged and sent to a psychologist to figure out how to deal with his issues. But I also think he's trying harder than anyone else, and doesn't deserve to be made the villain. I think with a little guidance, he could make the best leader out of the group.

 

Edit: Thanks for coming Chuck. You have a good and simple point. I for one, can sympathize with Youngsoo because I was in a similar situation as him in Middle School. It doesn't seem like a big deal from an outside perspective, but the incessant harassment and teasing, compiled with stress from outside sources, like family, or the expectations of being excellent in school, all really adds up. I had nothing less than a carnal hatred for all of my bullies, where I would've liked nothing better for them to vanish off the face of the Earth. Funny, how when they grew up a bit and started respecting me, I was actually able to be friends with them...

 

Here's something to discuss: Which is worse? Il-ha's violent tendencies, which led to the death of a student reservist earlier in the story, and eventually his own death, or Youngsoo's sick molestation of an unconscious female comrade who was nearly killed only seconds before? What about Youngsoo's bad habit of pointing his gun at people and demanding silence? 

Edited by Cervance, 14 December 2013 - 03:42 AM.

[PervySageChuck]

Well, I firmly believe that you should never point a gun at someone unless you are definitely going to kill them.  I also believe that you should not kill someone unless they threaten your life or the life of someone that you care about.  Leaving them alive will only give them the chance to kill or hurt you at a later time.

 

As to your question about which is worse,  I would have to say that both are equally abhorrent in my eyes and both fully deserving of the death penalty in my opinion, no matter whether they are minors or not.  I don't have any sympathy for criminals and I believe that death should be the penalty for ANY violent crime.  Of course, I would first like to see this penalty applied to the leaders of countries who send their youth off to be killed in conflicts in countries other than their own.  I would preclude from this wars that are fought defending their own country from invaders, but ANY leader who sends his military into another country should be shot as a mass murderer.

 

And I'd like to nominate my own country's president as the first one to be tried in court as a mass murderer.

[Passerby]

1. We all know that he wasn't doing a little "CPR" there, and there's no knowing how far he'd have gone in his irrational state made worse by his fuck-up moments prior and guilt, had Il-ha not shown up. And I don't know about you, but if I happen to come across say my sister or gf or other close female acquaintances lying unconscious on the ground and is being molested by a creep, then I'm pretty sure I'd resort to violence in one way or the other, rather than pulling him aside nicely and telling him to stop. And I wouldn't be the only one to think that way. You're understating Youngsoo's crime here to exaggerate Il-ha's burst of violence. And you also have to consider that fact that Il-ha was probably extremely angry at Youngsoo because he fucked up and got their friends killed.

 

2. Youngsoo did save her life, but he hardly did it thinking. The cell was coming right at him and he had no other choice but to shoot it, even when the girl was directly in the line of sight. He was just lucky that he didn't shoot the girl in the head.

 

3. I don't agree that he's trying harder than anyone else - what he's trying hardest is to do get those extra credits for himself, and not necessarily at being a soldier and a squad leader for his 'men'. It's clear as day that he has neither the ability nor leadership to lead his squad (at this point in time) - his deficiencies are all the more glaring because Jangsu, the leader of the other squad, is shown to listen to his comrades before making a decision and has the balls to take charge of his squad when fighting against the cells. Which is in stark contrast to Youngsoo, who simply abused his authority to have his way despite protests from most of his squad, and when the shit hit the fan, he just ran for his life and completely abandoned his squad. He's a classic example of the incompetent officer who gets his men killed unnecessarily. In short, he's just a selfish liar without moral who'd do anything to succeed, though he's incapable and doesn't deserve what he's trying to get.

 

 

[In this case, Youngsoo realizes what he's doing is wrong, and even if Il-Ha (I can't believe I've been spelling it backwards) didn't show up, Youngsoo would've done nothing worse than cop a feel before rescuing her. It's different from offenders who are looking for a power high, or offenders who don't feel guilty. Maybe I'm being objective to a fault here, but a little "CPR" isn't going to hurt the girl, after all. What I mean to say is, I think if he comes clean, he can be forgiven easily.

 

Let's also not forget Youngsoo saved her life. In this case, I feel he's a bit more heroic than Il-Ha, who resorts to violence at the drop of a dime. Remember earlier in the the story, when Il-Ha got into a fistfight close to the medium cell? It resulted in one of the first deaths. He's a violent bully, not a hero. The law exists for a reason, and Il-Ha was just a vigilante bully trying to control Youngsoo with force, instead of reporting him the first time there was an issue.

 

Far be it my intention to justify Youngsoo's mental instability. For what he's done, he needs to be discharged and sent to a psychologist to figure out how to deal with his issues. But I also think he's trying harder than anyone else, and doesn't deserve to be made the villain. I think with a little guidance, he could make the best leader out of the group.]

[svines85]

I personally never saw or considered Youngsoo to have been "bullied" in the first place........what I saw was a person who was poorly adjusted and unable to interact well with his classmates. Of course I'm familiar with this author's previous work 3 Level Combination too............now there's some bullying the Korean public school way. 

 

However, "bullied" or not isn't really something that has bearing on Youngsoo's actions..........the ones we care about anyway. His first sin was pointing his weapon at his fellow soldier.........I've said it before and I'll say it again, it's a HUGE red flag in the military. It's indicative of a serious character flaw........you have to remember in the military people are literally broken down and then rebuilt as a team. For one to even be capable of, let alone as a first resort,  drawing down on one of his own? A major, major sign of troubles with that soldier. 

 

His other sin is of course what amounts to a sexual assault on an incapacitated teammate. Heinous, an absolutely abhorrent act on his part which is further testament to his unfitness for duty. 

 

Il-Ha's mistake was not taking Youngsoo's threat seriously enough......no surprise, as I said I at least never considered the young man to be a bully in the first place. If he had been he would have been much better off most probably, he'd have probably turned Youngsoo's lights out with the butt of his rifle right off. He'd be alive if he'd have handled things better. 

 

What, there's some question of Youngsoo being seen as a villain? I can't imagine why, he clearly deserves to be seen as such. He might be messed up in the head but I'm afraid to say that's really no excuse in the big scheme of things. 

[MarcusMaranello]

*ethical debate out of nowhere*

 

To be honest it's probably better for the plot that Youngsoo survived, but that doesn't stop me hating him.  Which is a sign of good writing I guess

[svines85]

*ethical debate out of nowhere*

 

To be honest it's probably better for the plot that Youngsoo survived, but that doesn't stop me hating him.  Which is a sign of good writing I guess

In my personal opinion HA Il-kwon is the best webtoon author and it's  by far.....................I actually waffle a bit between him and the author of Trace/Can't See Can't Hear But Love who goes by Nasty Cat. Both of these authors are on a completely different level than almost any other webtoon authors (scanlated of course). 

 

HA Il-kwon is actually the only webtoon author who has broken into the traditional (print) published manhwa market with an original work (that I personally know of), that being his Carnivorous Princess Yegrinna title. Anybody who hasn't read his works prior to this one I really can't recommend them highly enough. I consider Annarasumanara to be hands-down the best webtoon there is, and 3 Level Combination to be well into the upper echelon as well (though exceedingly violent and upsetting). 

 

There are actually more...........but I'm too lazy to mention them all.  

[svines85]

Youngsoo sure looked rough........I suppose living with a guilty conscience must take a toll.

[Cervance]

Youngsoo sure looked rough........I suppose living with a guilty conscience must take a toll.

 

Ha-il Kwon has good attention to detail, for sure. 

 

I'm wondering, now that everyone has become accustomed to fighting the cells, if it's time for the Evil Alien Conquerors to play their next card... The lieutenant mentioned the U.N. tried 13 different weapons on a large cell. Just imagine the cell transmitting that data to a mothership. The Aliens would know not only the best weapons mankind has to throw at them, but also the general fighting strength of different countries around the globe, thanks to the Medium and Small cells. 

[svines85]

Ha-il Kwon has good attention to detail, for sure. 

 

I'm wondering, now that everyone has become accustomed to fighting the cells, if it's time for the Evil Alien Conquerors to play their next card... The lieutenant mentioned the U.N. tried 13 different weapons on a large cell. Just imagine the cell transmitting that data to a mothership. The Aliens would know not only the best weapons mankind has to throw at them, but also the general fighting strength of different countries around the globe, thanks to the Medium and Small cells. 

I suppose it wouldn't be a big surprise if something happened. We just got the big low-down on the large cells (oh, we think  they might be dormant, let's just ignore them) and now our characters have this huge, "just waiting on my parole date to roll around" lure being dangled in front of them...........complete with seeing people right next door being mustered out ahead of them. Yeah, perfect timing for all hell to break loose. 

[Qwick]

Here's something to discuss: Which is worse? Il-ha's violent tendencies, which led to the death of a student reservist earlier in the story, and eventually his own death, or Youngsoo's sick molestation of an unconscious female comrade who was nearly killed only seconds before? What about Youngsoo's bad habit of pointing his gun at people and demanding silence? 

You're missing a few key points there, Youngsoo's blackmail and death threats cheif among them.  Also the idea that Youngsoo would have stopped his molestation eventually were he not interupted doesn't sit well with me either, he had his moment of doubt after kissing her, but then moves on to groping her breasts ("squeeze") before he is discovered. Honestly if I were blackmailed on threat of death by someone once and they tried to use that same tactic again after screwing up again I would completely understand resorting to violence to try to stop them, and I would definately resort to violence myself to stop a situation that appeared to be moving towards rape.

 

As to the previous tussle that lead to the first student death, of course violence is not to be condoned but I view that as more of a school boy/ immaturity lower level character flaw than sexual assult and serious threats of murder.

 

Don't get me wrong there are sympathetic aspects to Youngsoo's story and character, but I feel you are going too far to defend him.

 

I think in Youngsoo's case what is most tragic of all is that the way he percieves other peoples actions is flawed and this leads to him thinking he is more downtrodden than he actually is.  He thinks of himself as separate from the others and bullied so he acts as such which separates him more.  Every slight is exaggerated in his mind:  for example Soyeon covering up her legs after she caught him looking up her skirt makes her a stuck up woman who thought she was too good for him.  (Which make's his sexually assulting her as "punishment" for this "crime" very much a rape like power play, ("you're so full of yourself huh?")).  The interactions between Ha il and Youngsoo can be viewed as at least partly friendly on Ha il's part most of the time (though he has used Youngsoo as a bit of a gopher before: as a lookout while he and his clique smoke).  In the flashback Ha il throws food at him that in reality neither of them wanted. Ha il believes this to be firendly but of course Youngsoo can only interpret the negitive conotations of this action.  Ha il acts this way to other members of the cast as well, teasing characters like tenman but they remain friends because tenman can see the friendly nature of Ha il's actions, Youngsoo can't.

 

Ultimately in Ha il and Yungsoo I see a story of two boys who could have been friends but were unable to communicate with eachother, Ha il's personality was too rough/immature for Yungoo to view anything he did as friendly and Youngsoo never really confronted him about it, we see his dislike of their interactions but Ha il is mostly oblivious.

 

Youngsoo is tragic in that he is the student the korean school system made him: completely focused on grades, extra credits and studies to the point that his social skills greatly suffer.

Also I really am enjoying this story.  The use of the video capture has been done so well it makes even "break" chapters like the last one very effective.

Edited by Qwick, 18 December 2013 - 09:52 AM.

[svines85]

You know I totally missed that we'd gotten an answer in ch 40 to a question I'd brought up earlier, that being if the bodies of the lost soldiers from the first day of the medium cell operation had been recovered or not.

 

We now know they have not, and even though in ch 41 we find out our squad is being shipped off to another locale, it's still very possible to come back up in the story. Il Ha's body will be recovered and identified at some point.....that's just going to be a matter of protocol........ and it very likely will raise questions about the cause of death. I personally don't think Youngsoo is necessarily off the hook just yet.

[Cervance]

Don't get me wrong there are sympathetic aspects to Youngsoo's story and character, but I feel you are going too far to defend him.

 
Part of persuasive writing - the most important part - is ignoring the negative parts of an argument. I wanted more people to actually think about Youngsoo and his possible motivations, rather than call him insane. By providing only one half of the entire argument, someone else has to think and provide the other half. Then, other interested people read both halves, and make their own decision. Providing only the positive parts of Youngsoo's character requires that I fluff things up a little, considering all the bad he's done.
 
As for a friendship between Youngsoo and Il-Ha (I made a mistake earlier mixing up the author and the character), it would only be possible if Il-Ha showed a sign of respect first. There's a funny point in relationships where we allow our friends to disrespect and outright abuse us. Perhaps you're right that Il-Ha was trying to be friendly in his own way, but all of it was disrespectful. 
 
I've remarked a bit before about my own experience with similar bullying - it was only childish teasing, really, but over the course of three years, it added up significantly and I would've been thrilled to see all of them disappear. Entering the second year of high school though, things changed. The former bullies started ignoring me, preferring instead to tease each other or people safely out of earshot. When it came time to interact, we all showed each other the minimum amount of respect required between peers to get work done.
 
Il-Ha and Youngsoo both were missing a crucial part of healthy social interaction, and they felt threatened by each other. Fear is one of the only things which motivates people (love being the other, sadly less common motivator) and here it motivated Youngsoo to threaten Il-Ha, who reacted to those threats violently. Perhaps, if Youngsoo and Il-Ha learned to respect each other, they could have gotten along fine.
 
As for Il-Ha's body, its unlikely the recovery team will pay any attention to his gunshot wound since Youngsoo smashed his head in with a rock, and there's no suspicion of murder to warrant closer inspection. Even if the gunshot wound is discovered, Youngsoo's story that the cell attacked Il-Ha's head would save him, since he can just say the wound is from him shooting the cell.

Has anybody else noticed Ha-il is using more color in recent chapters? There's been a warm tint of orange instead of the usual grey skies, and there's been a lot of focus on the girls' hair. There's only one more thing in this webtoon that's colored, and no, I'm not talking about the fabulously green army pants...