Dendrobates

@AdeptSlayer

 

The basic difference between our two beliefs seems to be that you wish to coddle criminals, thus rewarding them for their bad behavior and I believe that criminals should be punished for their bad behavior, or am I mistaken?

No, and there's no cause for setting up a straw man argument. The basic difference is that I want the best outcome for society as a whole, with justice as a secondary goal. I don't go nearly as far as you, wanting everything to be punishable by death, but there are crimes that I wouldn't mind seeing the offenders slowly tortured to death for. Rape for instance.

Despite this, the evidence seems to indicate that this is a terrible option. To use formal logic:

1. Taxes pay the cost of incarcerating prisoners, and their upkeep in prison.

2. The legal fees of capital punishment are larger than the cost of putting a man away for life in prison.

3. Due Process is important.

4. The recidivism rate (number of criminals who reoffend and end up back in prison) in Norway is 20%. .05% of the population is in prison.

5. The recidivism rate in the US is 60%. .5% of the population is in prison.

6. Norway treats its criminals far better than the US, with a focus on rehabilitation.

7. Because of (1) and (2) the death penalty costs society more than any other approach, and because of (3) we can't reduce that cost.

8) Norway is getting MUCH better results (5) than the US (4) with the criminals it releases.

9) This is probably due to their different approach in their prison system.

THEREFORE : It seems likely that if we modeled our penal system after theirs we would end up with fewer criminals being released from prison and committing crimes again. This would make society safer, and lower the prison population in the long run, which would in turn cost less money.

Is there really a point about arguing about crime and laws?  I mean we are all illegally reading manga translations before these are purposely translated into  our language.  We are supporting piracy.

Though I don't find this bad.  I mean a lot of manga I read here may not actually be popular enough to ever get translated into the western market.  And I don't see anything wrong with people wanting to get a product of entertainment that they can't get where they are (which could be seen as a lot of things.  So let's keep it at movies and comics). 

We are all criminals in some way.  No one is innocent, and even the word innocent can be morphed.  Never breaking any laws or never breaking laws of violence or murder?  Does innocence mean never breaking laws?  Then what if you do something you know is morally wrong but has no laws against it (this I'm stretching because moral innocence is different from the innocence of law and order)

This is written by a guy with a point of few.  And let's face it:

A lot of us are here to see scum get their just desserts.  Which they seldom get in real life in the ways we want thanks to the law systems of the world being flawed. 

I'm not saying that I support vigilantism, nor that we should take a totalitarian view of the law system (because every system has flaws and we can't assume what one person does is what everyone could do because everyone is different)

So yeah.  I'll enjoy seeing thousand guns shoot assholes in the face thank you.

well, that was cool.

@Rava

I thoroughly enjoyed Akumetsu and I am also enjoying this manga.  I was enjoying a good debate about the death penalty until my opponent in the discussion stooped to the use of hypocricy and flawed logic.  Until that point, it was a very entertaining discussion to me.

Why the heck are you guys arguing about morals and consequences in a manga like this?  Seriously if you think this is offensive, please go read Akumetsu.  (and even if you aren't you should still go read Akumetsu.)

@kosmaj

Ah...  But by your logic, reading a book in a library would also be a crime.  Sorry, but your logic has just collapsed completely!!!

And you have shown yourself to be just another hypocrite by calling for my death instead of a comfortable imprisonment as you advocated in your earlier statements.

This will be my last response to you since you have shown yourself with this hypocricy to be no longer worthy of my attention.

When my father was in the Navy, he used to have a few guys like that in his squad when he was stationed in Japan. Being an Asian himself, my dad didn't like it and made sure to punish them whenever they tried to do something as stupid as being rude in another country.

'Murica!  

I hate kids who use their parents status to get away with shit.  Fuckers got what they deserved.   

@Mr.Late

Thanks for the compliment, but I'm not all that smart. I've just had nearly sixty years to accumulate all kinds of FNWKs.

Spoiler

FNWK: a Fact Not Worth Knowing, also known as trivia.

Spoiler

And I come from a long, proud line of perverts and sexual deviants!!!

I see, pervy! It's all clear now!!!!! 

PervySageChuck

Yes, You are mistaken. Because even now You are breaking the law by reading this comic. You did not buy it, then you do not have rights to read it. According to your logic, every crime is the same. Murder committed in the heat of passion is equivalent to a scheduled genocide. And stealing bread from hunger is equivalent to stealing millions by politicians of the European Union.

Then I expect you to give an example and report yourself to the police station where they will carry out the execution immediately.

"Personally, I feel that if something is worth being defined as a crime, the penalty should be death."

These are your own words, not mine. Carry a consequence of your utterances.

I can definitely say that these punks pissed me off.  I was really annoyed by how fucked up these people are. 

I mean just how....HOW CAN SOMEONE THINK LIKE THIS?  I mean if this was a first world soldier in a third world country I would get it (I wouldn't like it). 

Then again most of these assholes have had some problems in telling the difference between reality (example, bitch kid who killed a cop for his gun).  As soon as you have some kind of leverage they start to abuse it.  Showcase the horror that they really are, and the lack of regret is what really lights it up.  I get how they think they can get away and that only makes it all the more satisfying to see them get their faces blown off by this guy.

Also, I wish he made the main guy live long enough to beg...

@AdeptSlayer

The basic difference between our two beliefs seems to be that you wish to coddle criminals, thus rewarding them for their bad behavior and I believe that criminals should be punished for their bad behavior, or am I mistaken?

Another super American stereotype. I know Americans are extremely arrogant, especially to other countries. But beating down some random homeless dude to death simply cause he was there has nothing to do with being American; that's a crime of just being 100% fcked up in the head.

@AdeptSlayer

The cost of executing criminals would be a lot cheaper if once they were convicted and sentenced, they were immediately taken out and shot in the head.

 

Also, people in different countries have different cultural attitudes, so what may work in a country like Norway might not necessarily work in the USA and simply wishing that it would, will not make it so.

Actually, the majority of the cost in capital punishment comes from legal fees, not the time after conviction and before execution. Because a man's life is at stake the proceeding are slower; you want to be careful when society is deciding to collectively murder someone.  and the prisoners are much more likely to appeal the decision, even further increasing the costs. 

Course you could circumvent that by eliminating appeals and due process - just take the accused out back and shoot him - but I shouldn't have to explain why that is a terrible idea.

And I've heard the argument that "It wont work over here," but frankly it's never been tried. All the data we have points at one system that is operates with an extremely low success rate, and another that is producing far better results. It should be given a fair try before we write it off.

Furthermore, one thing I never got about that argument : why are so many so convinced rehabilitation can work in European countries but not in the US? Are we just that much worse than people of other countries? Are we less moral by nature, and unable to mend our ways? That seems to be the implication when you assume rehabilitation will not work in the US, and I've never been convinced.

Well regarding question what do i want from justice system is obviously lowering crime rates. But those expensive prisons in norway wouldn't work in most countries because most of them are already in big debt and you want to treat prisoners even better than a normal citizens below average salary.

A bullet is quite a bit cheaper.

@AdeptSlayer

The cost of executing criminals would be a lot cheaper if once they were convicted and sentenced, they were immediately taken out and shot in the head.

Also, people in different countries have different cultural attitudes, so what may work in a country like Norway might not necessarily work in the USA and simply wishing that it would, will not make it so.

@kosmaj

Yes, but the recidivism rate for executed criminals is so low that I think that it should be the primary method of punishment for ALL crimes of violence. Not just the truly horrific ones, but also common mugging, burglary and any other crime. Personally, I feel that if something is worth being defined as a crime, the penalty should be death. This would eliminate the need for costly prisons. And if you don't think that a crime deserves the death penalty, such as prostitution or drugs, then legalize it.

However, due to the huge legal costs in trying someone in a capital punishment case, it actually ends up being more costly to give someone the death penalty than it would be to incarcerate them for life without parole. 

http://www.deathpenaltyinfo.org/costs-death-penalty

And if you are worried about recidivism rates, and not just going for the feel good feeling you get when the bad guy "gets what he deserved" you could consider the models used in Norway. They have facilities that America would consider outrageous, see the link for details.  But it seems that when you treat prisoners like decent people they act like it, and as a result have the lowest reoffending rates in the world (16%).

http://www.dailymail.co.uk/home/moslive/article-1384308/Norways-controversial-cushy-prison-experiment--catch-UK.html

So what exactly do you want out of our justice system?

label are meaningless let him\her call him what he\she pleases.Douche .

Fuck you that is all

HEY HAVEN't YOU READ ENOUGH MANGA LIKE THIS? A MURDERER IS JUST A FUCKING MURDERER, PERIOD. GOD DAMN VIGILANTE AINT SHIT, A MURDERER IS A FUCKING MURDERER. YOU GOT THAT? That's all ^.^

Who the heck put antihero tag for this manga. Clearly he is a vigilante. All the people he killed so far are all criminals.

HEY HAVEN't YOU READ ENOUGH MANGA LIKE THIS? A MURDERER IS JUST A FUCKING MURDERER, PERIOD. GOD DAMN VIGILANTE AINT SHIT, A MURDERER IS A FUCKING MURDERER. YOU GOT THAT? That's all ^.^

Note for ch24: ...Marugai is not the victim's name, Marugai is police slang for "victim"...

Ethymologically speaking, I suspect "gai" is from higaisha ("victim"), and the "maru" ("circle") refers to a circled kanji, in this case the "gai" kanji. Other examples of the same use of "maru" is maruhi ("Top Secret") and maruK ("Circle K", a store chain)

Dayum! of course he's going to snipe standing up, I was expecting him to do a 420 no scope from the hip though.