39 replies to this topic

[Akasha]

Going back to the main topic, but leaving aside the human-versus-suras (not going back to the main topic ._.), I would gladly see a fight involving Astika and Nastika, and I'm not so sure about the outcome, since a battle is not always fought with mere strenght.

We saw an flashback (or was it only an possible matchup?) between Gandharva (in his Sura form) and Agni (in his withe flame form), both of them about to start battle ... both of them more or less without the handicap the human world imposes on them. Hm ..

Edited by Akasha, 22 November 2012 - 01:04 PM.

[Mizura]

If you're talking about chapter 99, when we see the Nastika Kings and Natural Gods, then Currygom said in the comment for that episode that it was an imaginary match-up, since:
- Some of the Kings already died, or are in a coma
- The Gods are no match for the Nastika Kings at all. xD

I recently had a look at the entry for Agni's White Form. It's actually a temporary buff that raises his strength, speed, physical defense and defense against transcendentals, so it's not actually his normal strength.

As for Sura not eating humans, I think that mostly applies to those very big Superior Sura. It seems they have different reasons for not eating humans:
- Shuri seems to imply that it's "not nice" to eat/hurt those weak little humans.
- The other Yaksha there just implied that there's nothing to eat because they're so small though.
- Taksaka and Sagara don't seem to eat humans either, but evidently it's not because they have something against killing them. I think they just think that it's a bother.
From their point of view, eating humans is probably like making a human eat ants. It's kind of more trouble than it's worth. D:

However, Maras for example are much smaller and much lower down the food chain. There was this one Garuda sura reporting to Maruna, who wasn't that much bigger than a human. I'm pretty sure They have nothing against gulping down a human or two, which is why Maras are a threat to humans traveling around. Plus, I get the impression that Maras are close to dumb beasts.

Edited by Mizura, 22 November 2012 - 01:23 PM.

[Akasha]

Agnis white fire form isn´t exactly "only a buff", turning white alone only for a short period of time was powerful enough to nearly kill the weakened human form Gandharva (it would´ve succesed if not for "summoner can die" bit that also doesn´t allows him to use more powerful Skills like Nuclear) who only "managed to block it" for a (apperantly very short) period of time while it was in use, so it definitly isn´t a joke.

But well ... either way ... the scene I was talking about and which I asked about was this one. Only remembered it vague ... took a while to find. Cannot tell if Agni is in his white flame form, tough. Flashback, I guess?

Edited by Akasha, 22 November 2012 - 02:33 PM.

[Goobera]

I think Gandharva was just recollecting some of his fights with Agni from millions of years ago, when he was still in his angry mode all the time ^^ I suppose that Currygom omits to show battles between real full Sura form Nastika against Gods, because the height and size difference is just too freaking huge... Just like she had to turn God Kubera into his child form for the 3rd Kubera book cover, because he was so freaking huge, that he did not fit in one picture frame with Leez:



I suppose it is not very interesting if the picture frame is filled out 99% with just one character, and the other character is as big as a sparrow or a mouse. I mean, just as a comparison, the fight between dragon form Kasak and Sura form Maruna was totally impressive and cool, because both had nearly the same size and speed, so there was a lot of action.. But a fight between a Sura form Nastika and a God would be like a bored human trying to swat a hornet or angry bee, or something like that maybe? If Agni in his full God form is about as big as half of the hand palm of Gandharva in full Sura form... Plus, because of exactly this huge difference the Gods are very keen on avoiding fights against full Sura form Nastika, even God Kubera, despite his gigantic strength, was only keen on using sneaky traps and poison to fight real Nastika. The Gods will probably try to avoid a fight against a full Sura Nastika at all costs?

Edited by Goobera, 22 November 2012 - 10:32 PM.

[Mizura]

Actually, with Adult God Kubera, the Cover would be God Kubera's torso, with his hand on an annoyed tuff of green something poking out from the very bottom of the cover. xD

[Goobera]

Here is a size comparison between Yuta in his 2nd stage Sura form versus Ran and Leez:



Here is more of Yuta in 2nd stage Sura form, carrying Ran and Leez in one of his huge paws:

Spoiler

This seems already difficult to draw, one barely can see Ran and Leez in the one image, and this is just a 2nd stage Rakshasa, and not a full blown Nastika in Sura form. Gods in God form are surely bigger than humans, but this gigantic size difference still would cause a lot of boredom for the readers I suppose... No one who is sane, not even a God (even Visnu is scared of Taksaka, knowing he could kill and destroy his form until the end of the current universe), will want to attack a Sura form Nastika directly I guess. They will all try to lure them into the human realm (where they cannot change) or use deceptive techniques. Except Leez in crazed battle mode of course, she does not seem sane anymore in that state ^^ Not that she was that incredibly smart and sane to begin with, but still...

Edited by Goobera, 24 November 2012 - 03:47 AM.

[Akasha]

Maruna is unusual big for his kind and stage (despite being as "huge as a mountain")... compared to Sura form Nastika, they are propably still on the lower end of Sura forms of Nastika (Asura Clan Nastika with swarm forms aside, I guess).

Visnu should still be more powerful than Taksaka, but even he cannot be completly sure to win this fight which means he has a reasonable chance to actually suffer destruction. The only ones who might actully fight Sura Form Nastika would be the gods (as we know they do, even if they favor other means ... a simple example would be the backstory with God Kubera with all of the gods forces on his side on their tour of conquest ... another example would be the clear implication during the finite that the summoned Varuna, with the large amount of water around Mistyshore at his disposale, would be comparable to Gandharva and could actually oppose Takasha) and the likes of Kali, Brahma, Visnu or Shiva.

Edited by Akasha, 24 November 2012 - 12:49 PM.

[Boredoom]

I thought it said "Stronger then a gandaharva, was it my mistake or?...

[Mizura]

Pretty sure it was -a- Gandharva. I really doubt any God can take on a unweakened Gandharva in Sura form... The Gods are specifically described as "those who are weaker" than Nastika. Even Sagara is stronger than Agni in Sura form. :S

[krackenker]

Gods are made to lose against Nastikas and if Varuna had access to water... what's that go Gandharva? He himself is the strongest water being of the universe. I really doubt that the advantage of water for Varuna would put him at a disadvantage, why cant he use it himself?

[Boredoom]

^That was kind of my point.

[Akasha]

I don´t really get what´s the point of the current discussion. Could someone please clear things up for me? Thanks.

Either way ...

Seeing Ian watch him silently, Visnu started laughing. He told her to prevent any damage to the city, adding that he had to go to another job. Then he told Tak not to do anything wrong. The area was surrounded by the sea, and on the sea she (Varuna) had more power than a Gandharva. In addition, she also controlled the city turrets. In other words, she could kill Ian at any moment.

From the "finite".

Don´t know if the implication is "she is powerful more than (the/that) Gandharva" or "a (average) Gandharva (Nastika)". There was no need mention to take lower ranked Sura than Nastika because the gods of nature are powerful enough to surpass them either way.

It´s also not exactly clear if the implication if is about raw powerlevels (unlikely, because it´s before Gandharva got as weak as he currently is, isn´t it?) or about the amount of control above the element water. Or some other issue (like being powerful enough that Tak cannot defend Ian against her, if she aims for Ian).

Someone with a good understanding of the korean language might be able to clear up what this statement is refering to. If someone like that has time to do that, thanks in advance.

Both Gandharva and Varuna are the most powerful beings in terms of control of elemental water. Gandharva because he is Gandharva and Varuna because she fundamentally is water. It´s her domain. And both of them are apperantly the only ones powerful enough to create an ocean in the sura realm.

There are only the gods of nature and Yama that could and would fight against the Nastika directly anyway. Maybe several hundred or more beings of supreme power versus maybe eight than can hope to - somewhat - oppose them isn´t going to make for a fair match. No wonder why the Sura of each clan look out for Nastika of other clans instead of gods ... the chance to encounter troublesome gods is much, much smaller than encountering a nasty Nastika of another clan. All the other - lower zen - gods are trash compared to a Nastikas full power and we already know that there are enough lower Zen Gods that there were enough for every significant city to have two or three of them, so at their peak, they were many weak gods as well as a few strong gods versus many strong Nastika as well as their rather powerful offsprings isn´t going to make for an balanced matchup, too.

Dragon Nastika (and other high end Nastika) can easily overpower lower Zen gods even in human form, while 5. Zen gods are powerful enough to stop and kill even powerful human form Nastika but are at a overall clear disadvantage while fighting Sura form Nastika (at least the decent ones), but that doesn´t means they cannot fight them at all (or that they have no chance to kill them).

Something that still confuses me are the "Agni taking revenge on Gandharvas kind"/"the gods attacking the Sura realm out of revenge (something that Sagara seems to consider as real possibility but doesn´t care if her clan is going to suffer because they don´t support her anyway ... and because Vasuki is, as long as she stays together with Tak, safe from the gods wrath)" bits.

Edited by Akasha, 24 November 2012 - 09:42 PM.

[Mizura]

It's a Google translate, done when I had the entire rest of the chapter to do, so don't look too much into it. -.-
But it's 100% certain that Gandharva (and likely, most other Gandharva Nastika) is stronger than Varuna in or out of water. Gandharva was only weakened in N0, to clear up the toxic mist for his clan to live in the Sura realm.

Nastika in general are stronger than ALL Gods. Even Sagara (who her clan considers weak) is stronger than Agni. The goal of the Gods is the extinction of the Nastika race, so if there were a single God that was stronger than Nastika, then that God would have already annihilated all those Nastika over the billions of years. Varuna in particular is the God who has killed the most Sura, so she wouldn't have missed an opportunity, but Gandharva is still alive, and so are Makara and Urvasi, even his wife was alive until recently.

HOWEVER, the Gods attack in campaigns (see Agni congratulating God Kubera when God Kubera took their whole armies to fight against the Ananta. In fact, the campaign was annihilated, but God Kub
era somehow tricked Ananta and got Ananta to die). Either that or they resort to trickery (Shakuntala's kidnapping. Both Gandharva and the Ananta seem to think of the Gods as playing dirty). Also, the Gods are relentless: they just regenerate and attack again. Eventually they should be able to get lucky and wear down a Nastika from time to time. It's just like how even humans can bring down Rakshasa when they're working together.

To add to that, the Ananta clan seems to be in a difficult situation right now. They're already afraid to all get eaten by the Garuda clan at this point, so perhaps even an attack by Gods could make things harder.

Eventually, a 5-zen God can be stronger than a weaker Nastika in human form, as is the case with Sagara and the weakened Gandharva right now (then again, they're weaker than Rakshasa right now). However, when Gandharva was not weakened, he could take on Agni in even human form.

As for creating an Ocean, I suspect that it's got nothing to do with sheer power, but with the differences between Gods and Nastika. Varuna has jurisdiction over water, so perhaps she is able to extend her jurisdiction over to the Sura realm. Or perhaps it's a unique transcendental, or perhaps her "pure" water attributes makes the task easier for her (like how human magicians with triple-attributes get huge bonuses to spells of their attribute).

Edit: I went and found back the comment to chapter 99. Although it's also a Google Translate, I think it makes more sense:

"The ones pictured here are the first Nastika Kings (except Taraka) and the 5-zen Natural Gods.
The picture is drawn as though it were a 7vs7 match. In fact, due to the difference in skills, it couldn't even be a 1vs7, so such a match-up would be impossible...
Despite that, for the group on the left, there are 2 confirmed deaths (Ananta, Yaksha), one in a coma (Garuda) and one person weakened (Gandharva), while everyone in the group on the right is alive. The point is, being able to resurrect seems better than being strong."

I'm not sure about the second sentence, but I Think it means that a Nastika King can take on all seven 5-Zen Natural Gods at once. This makes sense, as no doubt, the 5-Zen Gods would have likely tried to kill the Kings off by attacking all at once, but no Nastika King has been confirmed killed by them (Ananta was killed by trickery, not battle. We don't know how Yaksha died though). What is pretty clear is that Gods don't match up to the higher-level Nastikas at all, but they have time and resurrection on their side...

Edited by Mizura, 25 November 2012 - 05:39 AM.

[themantarays]

Wait wait wait.... Any good human magician can defeat even a Nastika if they can use Bhavati Marut, right? Just chop them in half enough times.

Lol I posted this while reading page 1.

Edited by themantarays, 25 November 2012 - 04:09 AM.

[Mizura]

I think those human magicians would have a hard time conjuring a Bhavati Marut bigger than a mountain all the time. xD
Maybe if they're lucky, they'll be able to cut some of the Nastika's hair strands faster than they regenerate...

[Boredoom]

The thing is, a Human borrows the power of a God. That is magic. And a god doesn't overpower a nastika, thus a magician can not kill a Nastika alone.

[Akasha]

The thing is, a Human borrows the power of a God. That is magic. And a god doesn't overpower a nastika, thus a magician can not kill a Nastika alone.

The issue is actually more akin to "even if Bhavati marut manages to damages them, they will simply regenerate". A single strong attack might work against average human form Nastika, but most Sura form Nastika are very, very unlikely to take any kind of fatal blow by it. Then there is the problem with actually being capable to attack them before they kill you.

And yes ... magic works just fine against Nastika (like Bhavati Asvins, orginating from a lower Zen god no less, and similar stuff, too). But trying to kill them with that isn´t exactly something that is promising.

Edited by Akasha, 25 November 2012 - 02:22 PM.

[Boredoom]

Meant offensive magic and against sura form nastikas.

[krackenker]

Brilith used something agaisnt Sagara, where half her body went in flames, so it takes some serious stuffs to kill even a Human form Nastika (not to mention they can go into partial sura form and that Sagara is a weak Nastika)

[Akasha]

The move Brilith used was Bhavati Agni, a magic she usually cannot use quickly and accuratly ... when Agni helped her by apperantly correcting her calculation when she was using it on a whim, it nearly instantly vaporized an rather big Sura that was attacking Asha. Without Agnis help (which results in significantly slower and more inaccurate calculations) and with Sagara blocking it with one of her (most likely decent) transcendentals, it didn´t do significant damage. The general issue with magic like Hoti Indra/Hoti Agni and suchlike is that it is either not powerful enough to be fatal to very powerful opponents or (in case it is still very dangerous) it can be either dodged or blocked with another magic/transcedental and the issue with powerful as well as hard to dodge/block stuff like Bhavati Marut (and likely Bhavati Agni, too) is that it is rather hard to calculate properly (at least as long as you are not a genius magician or got the god himself fixing it for you) ... which means it usually is - at least when used by someone with around average calculation skill - either too slow or too inaccurate (or, in the worst case ... both) ... which will result in similar problems ... it can be either dodged or blocked.

Edited by Akasha, 25 November 2012 - 10:41 PM.