67 replies to this topic

[©®åƒ†¥µåGGø†]

Spoiler

well to clarify, the word seems leech is rude because the association with a blood sucking parasite, that has never positively contributed to its host. while the word noob come form newbie, and that come form new person. that's not that bad. in my home country (where my parents are form) that is a big insult to be called a leech or sanguijuela. ​And i thought one of the major complaints along with respect was that they were making a profit. but now i see more and more groups using the same means as mangafox (Adds), and maybe from batoto. what i trying to ask is where do we draw the line here between just making it and making out like bandits.

first of all, they call the people leacher, because they don´t help and just want to read the next chapter (I am not saying it is ok to call someone leecher, I am just saying why they do it).
second, there is no line. I think its wrong for scanlation groups to make money out of translating manga, its ok if they just use the money for the server and the raws, but if they make profit out of it its wrong.
but mangafox isn´t doing anything, they are just hosting the manga that the people have worked on and make money out of it.

Third, leeches can contribute positively to their host. http://www.nytimes.com/1981/02/17/science/the-doctor-s-world-leeches-still-have-their-medical-uses.html?pagewanted=all

And you really shouldn't read that much into it. The term leecher doesn't even owe its existence to the scanlation community to begin with, and is also used somewhat loosely. For example, in the torrent community, some people call anybody downloading a torrent a "leecher". Whether it is said with a neutral or negative connotation depends largely on the context. If they dine and dash, then "leecher" has a negative connotation. If not, then the term is pretty much a neutral way of distinguishing peers that are and aren't seeds.

I don't think scanlators really have a right to complain since their beaking the law by being the initial illegal distributer. I understand that they put effort in to it but still the scanlators have helped turn the manga industry into the music industry "Everybody can get it for free so why bother paying?".If the scanlators would stop scanlating we'd probably have slower releases but atleast the deserving parties profit. And yes this comes from someone who buys everything he reads when it is released (If it is released)

The music "industry" has experienced difficulties because of their own failure to adapt to changing times and changing clientele. We live in an age where almost everything is just one mouse click away. Going out and buying a cd that can get scratched or lost just isn't practical and doesn't hold the same appeal anymore. iTunes was probably the best thing to happen for the music industry in a while. In any case, they've slowly come to terms with the idea of transactions over the internet, and some bands have even adopted policies like "pay what you think it's worth". Some have embraced the change, and some haven't. Those who haven't tend to get hit harder. Manga publishers could access a broader demographic at lower cost by working out successful online business models and working with scanlators. By making your product more accessible, you can reduce or eliminate piracy almost altogether. I appreciate how difficult it can be, but these industries just have to figure out new ways to sell their products. Otherwise, they have no "right to complain". When it comes down to it, complaining isn't about who has the "right" to do so. Complaining is about trying to be heard. Telling somebody that they have "no right to complain" is basically just a way of severing communication and telling them to shut up. This is a problematic viewpoint to hold, since a lack of communication tends to result in much grief and few solutions.

We can tell people they don't have the right to complain, but let's face it, nobody holds that right. So in the end all that happens is that we start telling everybody to shut up, and that's just not constructive.

Also people talk about how the money the groups make is spent on server cost and manga but does it really matter what you do with the money. If Noez spent all the money they made on server costs but still didn't respect the groups request would everyone still have a problem with them?

I own a highly successful fast food chain. Does it really matter whether I donate my profit to a gang of neo-nazi bikers or to the save-the-mule foundation? You decide! Your argument is predicated upon the assumption that what kind of business you run and what you do with the money you receive from that business are connected one moment and not connected the next. Try and simplify. I'd suggest dropping the tie-in with Noez altogether, and instead arguing that putting that money into server costs and buying raws is merely perpetuating the wrong originally committed. This has the added benefit of tying in nicely with your earlier argument. You should be consistent, if not agreeable. Otherwise, you become me. Anyhow, it is pretty transparent where you're trying to go with that question. I will point out though that included in your question is an implicit admission that Noez is in fact worse.

For fun though, I'll give you the answer you wanted to hear. If Noez still did not respect the wishes of scanlation groups, then scanlation groups would still have a problem with it. Batoto only has the support it does because it respects scanlators. "so surely, if scanlators were better then they would respect the wishes of publishers and mangaka". This in turn relies upon the assumption that there is no such thing as different degrees of respect. I reject such a notion. Even if you were to try to tie it in with the law in order to paint it as a black and white issue, this really can't be done. Self defense isn't murder. Noez kills kittens. Thank you, that will be all.

not all scanlation groups do series that are serialized, many of them do manga that will never be serialized in another country or at least in english.

To be fair, there are plenty of natives of the manga producing countries that can read english too... So you could still potentially argue that scanlation can hurt sales even in such a case. Of course, there can be some question as to whether those who would go out of their way to read something in another language would ever have bought it in their own language to begin with. But that kind of speculation goes into points I feel no burning desire to discuss, and is never particularly fruitful.

Enclosed in spoiler for excessive boredom. Sorry if I've misunderstood any points. I'm kind of exhausted. Actually have two twenty hour days a week, and three days of alternating night and morning schedule, and have been downing massive amounts of coffee... I am an amoeba.

Edited by 01001111, 25 February 2012 - 06:51 AM.

[Katzilla]

here you go http://www.mangaupda...ews.html?id=731

Ow...oww...my head hurts from reading this. There's so much ignorance that it's physically hurting me.

[vimes123]

You can't really compare cars to manga. If someone bought a copy of a manga for each person who wanted one nothing illegal is happening because someone is buying each copy. You can't just put a car through the photocopier and make a free car for everyone who wants one like you can a manga. Copyright infringement is a form of theft not of physical property but of intellectual property. Intellectual property is far easier to replicate.

But here is an issue I, and some scanlators have. If I obtain a copy of a work legally it should be my choice and mine alone about who I give any illegal copies to-- my answer to some of the "why should scanlators care who posts their stuff". If all I ask in return for a copy is a simple thank you and a promise not to show or give that copy to anyone with red hair and purple eyes, would I be wrong to withhold a copy for anyone who refuses my request? No, it's illegal to give them one in the first place. If they make that promise, am I wrong to hold them accountable for breaking it? I would sure hope not.

Some people like to lump all scanlators on the same level of Noez because obviously every scanlator who releases on Batoto or has their own webpage is making a profit off of ad traffic. But what about those of us who don't? Are we wrong to say, "Hey, Manga Fox, we don't profit off of our work and you shouldn't either." Are we wrong to say, "Wow, Batoto actually shows us some respect. They're supported by ads too, but since they show us some respect we'll reciprocate?"

Another thought to ponder, let's say I buy copy of a book and I am planning to write a paper on it for school or perhaps some literature study. Because I don't want to marr my original copy of the work, I photocopy the entire thing so I can make highlights and notes on it. I am looking through it in some coffee shop when I decide to get up to go to the bathroom or get some more coffee. While I am gone, someone takes my copy from the table, makes more copies of it and sells it for $5.00 per copy. Am I in the wrong in this situation for making a copy of the work with the intentions of using it only for my own personal use? No, not really. Is he stealing from me, the author, or both of us? Would you agree that his profiting from his acquisition of the copy and the distribution is wrong?

I think you are fighting against windmills. I haven't seen anyone here lumping all scanlators together. Even the title of this controversial threat says "some" scanlators.
Also, your photocopy theft example fails, because scanlator sites (or most of them) are just as public, as any aggregator site, so anyone can obtain it without problems.
"Copyright infringement is a form of theft not of physical property but of intellectual property."
That's not entirely true either. It's not theft of intellectual property. Theft of intellectual property would be for example, stealing a physical manuscript of a book someone wrote and claiming it as ones own. I know that you can't compare stealing cars with pirating manga, that's why I said "as a present". Of course it is a theoretical example, since no one could do that easily, but if someone could (maybe they have a star trek replicator), it would be a nice analogy to copyright infringement.

Edited by vimes123, 25 February 2012 - 01:05 PM.

[©®åƒ†¥µåGGø†]

here you go http://www.mangaupda...ews.html?id=731

Ow...oww...my head hurts from reading this. There's so much ignorance that it's physically hurting me.

I found the one saying that RHS was sticking it to the man particularly amusing. It's like Rosa Parks hiring someone else to sit in the back of the bus. If you don't have the balls to face someone in person then you sure as hell aren't "sticking it to the man".

I had a bit of fun on that thread, but I'd be surprised if I get a reply considering how late I jumped in.

I think you are fighting against windmills. I haven't seen anyone here lumping all scanlators together. Even the title of this controversial threat says "some" scanlators... Theft of intellectual property would be for example, stealing a physical manuscript of a book someone wrote and claiming it as ones own...

He's right though. Some people do treat all scanlators as if they're a single entity. Not necessarily on this thread in particular, but they're out there. As for your example, that would actually be both. Physical because you are stealing the book, and intellectual because you are stealing the words.

Edited by 01001111, 25 February 2012 - 08:43 PM.

[vimes123]

I think you are fighting against windmills. I haven't seen anyone here lumping all scanlators together. Even the title of this controversial threat says "some" scanlators... Theft of intellectual property would be for example, stealing a physical manuscript of a book someone wrote and claiming it as ones own...

He's right though. Some people do treat all scanlators as if they're a single entity. Not necessarily on this thread in particular, but they're out there. As for your example, that would actually be both. Physical because you are stealing the book, and intellectual because you are stealing the words.

The value of a manuscript is the intellectual one (paper is cheap). I really don't get your point though, the issue was copyright infringement vs theft, not physical theft vs theft of intellectual property.
Examples of theft of intellectual property are for example plagiarism, trade secrets, etc.
If you took a manuscript of a manga or the manga itself and sold it as your work, that would be theft of intellectual property.
If you just sell a copy, that's an infringement of copyright and yes, that difference is significant.

[©®åƒ†¥µåGGø†]

If you took a manuscript of a manga or the manga itself and sold it as your work, that would be theft of intellectual property.
If you just sell a copy, that's an infringement of copyright and yes, that difference is significant.

You're right that there is a difference between copyright infringement and actual theft of intellectual property. There wasn't really some huge point I was making. Stealing paper also constitutes theft, regardless of the fact that paper is cheap. As you say, that is not the point, merely an aside. Theft and infringement are two separate entities, albeit often used interchangeably in common discussion. Copyright infringement does not constitute taking control over the asset entirely, nor does it deprive the actual owner of use. Scanlation is infringement, and not theft. This doesn't change the fact that scanlators mostly do not have any sort of license or permission to do what they're doing. It may be a different kind of illegal, but it's still illegal.

We can go into the technicalities of infringement vs theft all day long and get nowhere. A more important question is whether or not infringement is wrong and harmful, and comparing it to theft will not answer that. We're not all lawyers well versed in the subtleties of what is what, so a discussion of the sort is just asking for a bunch of people like myself pretending to know the law just saying whatever we feel like. I feel that infringement can be bad or good. On the one hand, it increases exposure to works that otherwise might be somewhat obscure. On the other hand, it allows free access to those same works in places where they are already readily available for purchase. Depending on who you talk to, one might weigh more heavily than the other.

In the end, there are a bunch of uneasy skirmishes/truces going on between publishers and the scanlation community, and mangaka and leechers have been caught in the middle (and in some cases get involved). The problems faced by manga publishers are much the same as the problems faced by any media outlet. The question is whether or not they will be able to adapt to a drastically changing environment.

Edited by 01001111, 25 February 2012 - 11:25 PM.

[NooB.Ish]

Spoiler

well to clarify, the word seems leech is rude because the association with a blood sucking parasite, that has never positively contributed to its host. while the word noob come form newbie, and that come form new person. that's not that bad. in my home country (where my parents are form) that is a big insult to be called a leech or sanguijuela. ​And i thought one of the major complaints along with respect was that they were making a profit. but now i see more and more groups using the same means as mangafox (Adds), and maybe from batoto. what i trying to ask is where do we draw the line here between just making it and making out like bandits.

first of all, they call the people leacher, because they don´t help and just want to read the next chapter (I am not saying it is ok to call someone leecher, I am just saying why they do it).
second, there is no line. I think its wrong for scanlation groups to make money out of translating manga, its ok if they just use the money for the server and the raws, but if they make profit out of it its wrong.
but mangafox isn´t doing anything, they are just hosting the manga that the people have worked on and make money out of it.

Third, leeches can contribute positively to their host. http://www.nytimes.c...?pagewanted=all

And you really shouldn't read that much into it. The term leecher doesn't even owe its existence to the scanlation community to begin with, and is also used somewhat loosely. For example, in the torrent community, some people call anybody downloading a torrent a "leecher". Whether it is said with a neutral or negative connotation depends largely on the context. If they dine and dash, then "leecher" has a negative connotation. If not, then the term is pretty much a neutral way of distinguishing peers that are and aren't seeds.

I don't think scanlators really have a right to complain since their beaking the law by being the initial illegal distributer. I understand that they put effort in to it but still the scanlators have helped turn the manga industry into the music industry "Everybody can get it for free so why bother paying?".If the scanlators would stop scanlating we'd probably have slower releases but atleast the deserving parties profit. And yes this comes from someone who buys everything he reads when it is released (If it is released)

The music "industry" has experienced difficulties because of their own failure to adapt to changing times and changing clientele. We live in an age where almost everything is just one mouse click away. Going out and buying a cd that can get scratched or lost just isn't practical and doesn't hold the same appeal anymore. iTunes was probably the best thing to happen for the music industry in a while. In any case, they've slowly come to terms with the idea of transactions over the internet, and some bands have even adopted policies like "pay what you think it's worth". Some have embraced the change, and some haven't. Those who haven't tend to get hit harder. Manga publishers could access a broader demographic at lower cost by working out successful online business models and working with scanlators. By making your product more accessible, you can reduce or eliminate piracy almost altogether. I appreciate how difficult it can be, but these industries just have to figure out new ways to sell their products. Otherwise, they have no "right to complain". When it comes down to it, complaining isn't about who has the "right" to do so. Complaining is about trying to be heard. Telling somebody that they have "no right to complain" is basically just a way of severing communication and telling them to shut up. This is a problematic viewpoint to hold, since a lack of communication tends to result in much grief and few solutions.

We can tell people they don't have the right to complain, but let's face it, nobody holds that right. So in the end all that happens is that we start telling everybody to shut up, and that's just not constructive.

Also people talk about how the money the groups make is spent on server cost and manga but does it really matter what you do with the money. If Noez spent all the money they made on server costs but still didn't respect the groups request would everyone still have a problem with them?

I own a highly successful fast food chain. Does it really matter whether I donate my profit to a gang of neo-nazi bikers or to the save-the-mule foundation? You decide! Your argument is predicated upon the assumption that what kind of business you run and what you do with the money you receive from that business are connected one moment and not connected the next. Try and simplify. I'd suggest dropping the tie-in with Noez altogether, and instead arguing that putting that money into server costs and buying raws is merely perpetuating the wrong originally committed. This has the added benefit of tying in nicely with your earlier argument. You should be consistent, if not agreeable. Otherwise, you become me. Anyhow, it is pretty transparent where you're trying to go with that question. I will point out though that included in your question is an implicit admission that Noez is in fact worse.

For fun though, I'll give you the answer you wanted to hear. If Noez still did not respect the wishes of scanlation groups, then scanlation groups would still have a problem with it. Batoto only has the support it does because it respects scanlators. "so surely, if scanlators were better then they would respect the wishes of publishers and mangaka". This in turn relies upon the assumption that there is no such thing as different degrees of respect. I reject such a notion. Even if you were to try to tie it in with the law in order to paint it as a black and white issue, this really can't be done. Self defense isn't murder. Noez kills kittens. Thank you, that will be all.

not all scanlation groups do series that are serialized, many of them do manga that will never be serialized in another country or at least in english.

To be fair, there are plenty of natives of the manga producing countries that can read english too... So you could still potentially argue that scanlation can hurt sales even in such a case. Of course, there can be some question as to whether those who would go out of their way to read something in another language would ever have bought it in their own language to begin with. But that kind of speculation goes into points I feel no burning desire to discuss, and is never particularly fruitful.

Enclosed in spoiler for excessive boredom. Sorry if I've misunderstood any points. I'm kind of exhausted. Actually have two twenty hour days a week, and three days of alternating night and morning schedule, and have been downing massive amounts of coffee... I am an amoeba.

I understand what you mean. The only reason publishers like viz are making strides into online publishing is because of the trashing they've taken from the scanlators. But scanlators have absolutely NO right to the mangas they translate(unless there are authors who allow this ). I've seen others in this thread say that scanlators deserve the right to decide where their work is hosted but if you go back another level shouldn't the mangakas have that right before all else? In fact they do. Just like they choose thier publisher and magazine. How can a scanlator say they are being wronged when they are doing the same to others in the first place? Truthfully what i say will probably have no effect on the actions of these groups but i can't sympathize with a thief if the things he has stolen were stolen from him. So yes they can complain but i'm not gonna listen. >.>

[©®åƒ†¥µåGGø†]

I appreciate your point, however two wrongs are still just two wrongs. We can't say that one wrong excuses all other wrongs, or else we're left with a world full of "wrong". We can talk about who deserves sympathy and who doesn't, but during that discussion the occurrence of wrong goes wrongfully unnoticed. And I think that's wrong.

With regards to strides into online publishing, scanlation communities may have precipitated it, but it was a long time coming and necessary for survival even without taking scanlations into consideration. In a digital age, it is naive to think that anything but the best will be bought off the shelf. I'm not really excusing or condoning anything. This is just the world we live in. With changing technology comes changing business models... and change can be relentless. Was there much demand for painstakingly hand-copied books after the invention of the printing press? For hand sewn items after the sewing machine? For swords after the advent of tanks and guns? All these things may be treasured, sure. But they are all obsolete. With this new age, paper itself is becoming largely obsolete. Products like kindle are replacing physical books and manga are slowly finding their way onto the internet. Even outside of this realm... Movies and shows, there's netflix and hulu (and many channels now post the most recent episodes of shoes on their own website). Music, there's iTunes, pandora, youtube, blah blah blah. Things are becoming a lot more impersonal and anonymous. You can't go out to a pig farm and say "I want that one"... well you can, and some of them are quite delicious. But you get the point! Whether you feel that's wrong or right... it may suck, but it's still it regardless of whether or not you try to change it into something else. And that's the way it is.

With regards to mangaka having a say, it is perhaps more accurate to suggest that the publisher and magazine choose them. However, a mangaka isn't being held at gunpoint and told "get published", and in that sense it is their choice. However, once they turn over their work to the publisher, it's a whole different power dynamic. Most mangaka, except for the really big ones, actually don't hold much sway at all.

A scanlator can say they're being wronged when they're being wronged. I don't think anybody is really asking for sympathy here... just pointing out an incredible degree of disrespect, plain and simple. And you don't really have to decide what they're doing is right. I think the issue here is largely about attitude. Most scanlators (not all) will, for example, at the very least comply with a C&D. Certain online aggregates will not. You may wish to treat all illegal activity as illegal activity, but I have difficulty doing this. There are different degrees of criminality here. We have scanlators that are willing to comply with certain requests from mangaka and publishers, and aggregates that have demonstrated an unwillingness to do so. If I give a copy I made of my favorite book to a friend with the tacit agreement that he will return it to me right after he's finished and won't do anything unbecoming such as distribute copies of it to people walking by him on the sidewalk, or doodling all over it, or what have you... if he doesn't do what I expected of him am I really just as much to blame as him? It's the Boston Tea Party. We're all throwing the tea overboard, but one guy decides he's gonna steal it. Are we really equally to blame for his actions. Legally, perhaps, but barring that? I don't really think it is a lot to ask that a scanlator does have some control over what is done with his scanlation, and blah blah blah blah blah. You extend the right to decide where a work is hosted back to publishers and mangaka. They have every right to retaliate or request that material is taken down, and they sometimes do and it often is. It is the work of the mangaka, and that counts for something. But so does the work of the scanlators. Why should it not? Because it's like they're stealing? We see the same stories, gags, etc. rehashed from one manga to the next. You don't see people complaining about that. Someone surely must have come up with the classic depiction of blushing in just the cheeks... or plate sized eyes... or the accidental "boy's head meet girls panties". We don't observe accusations being flung across the room about stealing. Mangaka heavily borrow from those who came before them. Scanlations may be much more heavy on the borrowing, but all the editing, translation, proofreading, etc. they do on their own. If somebody improves the telephone, random people can't just start using those improvements and claiming them as their own. If you get too caught up in the legality of the issue and who wronged who, then you'll wind up getting an incomplete picture of just how much wrong is actually going on.

Even ignoring how the attitude of scanlators and some aggregates differ towards mangaka and publisher, it's just common decency to treat people with respect. Some aggregates have not shown respect towards scanlators, of a type that I would show towards any human being. Scanlators are similar (so far as importance to aggregates) to employees, yet they're not being treated that way.

Edited by 01001111, 26 February 2012 - 02:51 AM.