25 replies to this topic

[Egoist]

http://vatoto.com/read/_/76074/klan_v1_ch10_by_pinoymanga-scans/7

While I wasn't inclined to place much realism into this manga, the author's the one who brought it up. I was rather doubtful of the notion that a bear, grizzly or what not would be simply overpowered by the "king of beasts" i.e. lion. So I looked up some information on the interwebs and apparently 19th century Californians staged cage fights between lions and grizzlies and the bear usually came out on top. Now considering the variety of bear in the manga is the polar bear, being the largest land based carnivore, I find it rather dumb to say that the relationship between a lion and bear in nature is that of hunter and prey. By no means do I think that a lion is a pushover and I'm sure that there are occasions where the lion is the victor, usually when it's a smaller bear. But, in nature size matters.

All told, I really enjoy this manga and don't have any wish for it to try to apply the accurate balancing of nature as that would make for a really dull story I think.

[PROzess]

Its not said who the hunter and who the prey is-.-
Its just said that the relationship between Lions and bears is a hostile one.

And you're dumb for bringing reality into a manga.
I mean humans transforming into bears and lions... Who cares if the lion is stronger at this point....

[Egoist]

"Leaving the human-side aside for now, in nature the relationship between a lion and a bear is just that of hunter and its prey."-this is stated by the Count through Hamul.

And I'm dumb for questioning the logic of this statement? I'm inclined to believe this manga does not imply that all animals are hamranmul, ya know what the characters are. Yes this is a fictitious tale, but as with almost all fictitious stories it takes an understanding from that thing we call "reality." Aside from implying that the author must adhere to the logic of reality, which I don't do, it is the statement I have issue with. If you are implying that this is a reality that the author intends to have no reliable relationship with our own reality then I must sincerely apologize for my own interpretation of these words.

One last time, no fucking duh this is not reality.

[PROzess]

You don't need to quote, I know what I translated.
The point is, this manga doesn't belong in a category where you can come argueing with reality.
A high school setting with normal human, okay, when they suddenly run 2 sec in 100m in the track team, without any special mentioned power, then I sure would question reality too.
But the setting in Klan is too far away from reality. So it's pointless to argue against anything that occurs within the manga with reality-.-

[Pax Empyrean]

Thanks for translating this. It's a good series and I enjoy it. That said, the statement about lions hunting bears bothered me too.

Willing suspension of disbelief covers the obviously fictional stuff, like people turning into animals. It doesn't so easily cover stuff that is comparable to real life. For example, as a reader I have less problem if a character says, "This AK-47 shoots magical bursts of energy" than with a character saying, "The AK-47 shoots one thousand rounds per minute." The first statement is obviously just part of the story, while the second seems more like a factual mistake or a failure to do the research. It's similar with people turning into animals and lions hunting bears. Willing suspension of disbelief does not cover mundane statements as easily as it does fantastic ones.

Just for reference, wikipedia says that some male lions can exceed 550 lbs on the high end, with the heaviest male ever recorded in the wild weighing 690 lbs. Male polar bears weigh around 770-1,500 lbs, with the largest recorded in the wild weighing over 2,200 lbs.

[fal]

I'd say you're missing the point: in nature bears and lions have no relationship at all since they don't live in the same places (even more so for a polar bear).
Also "their relationship is that of a hunter and prey" means one of them repeatedly feeds off the other, not just may win a fight if put one again the other.

[Aedra]

What does the nature have to do with werebears and werelions?

[Egoist]

@PRzess Didn't realize you were the scanlator. As such, thank you very much for this service. I would not be able to continue through my tedious life without the exposure to such interesting fantasy as is provided by scanlators such as yourself.
@Fal You're right they aren't naturally in environments where they would be competing for resources. If either a polar bear or a lion were released into the others environment you could argue that the native would get a free meal upon finding the carcass. But, your point doesn't derail my primary argument.
@Aedra The issue has nothing to do with werebears and werelions.

[ernabc]

ok... you all forgot one thing : usually mangakas are very bad students in school. I love One Piece but Oda is also someone like this . His last "stupidity" is "the iron from chain cable is lighter than the sea water" just after he made us hardly "accept" that sometimes water has no density and there isn't so big to go with a balloon in the abyss of the ocean . ..One Piece is pure fantasy manga but even so it must have some rules .
Almost all their wrong doings are because they lack knowledge .

Edited by ernabc, 18 January 2012 - 08:40 AM.

[PROzess]

I can't understand you, who are trying to bring "reality" into a world full of made-up stuff......
So what if an AK suddenly shots 1000 shot per second? So what if a lion is stronger than a bear? The whole setting is far from reality anyway.
If you want to argue with reality go read shoujo where they live a regular high school life.....

[Pax Empyrean]

I'd say you're missing the point: in nature bears and lions have no relationship at all since they don't live in the same places

There is overlap in some parts of India where both bears and lions live.

If you want to argue with reality go read shoujo where they live a regular high school life.....

Do you not know what willing suspension of disbelief is? If you were reading a story that mentioned offhand that there are exactly 30 centimeters in one foot, would that not bother you just a tiny little bit? Most people don't just completely shut off all critical thinking when they start reading something. Most readers can more easily accept the obviously fantastic elements of a story, but balk at factual errors about the real world.

This story takes place in Japan. The female lead is from France. It's like the real world with the exception of these secret clans fighting each other, so when they say something that doesn't jive with the real world as we know it, that damages the verisimilitude of the setting. It's jarring because it reminds you that the story is just something that somebody wrote. Good writers avoid doing that, and only the most passive of readers gloss over stuff like that without a second thought. I don't turn my brain off just because I started reading a story.

[PROzess]

As soon as I see 1 core-element in the manga that defies reality, like people transforming into animals, the manga immediately gets catogorized for me as unrealistic. No matter what happens then, I will just take it as granted. If I can accept that people transform into animals, then I can easily believe that an Ant would be stronger than a bear.
But sure, if I read a normal shoujo manga, that has no fantasy element whatsoever, and suddenly a guy jumps down a house and survives, I go "WTF?"

Just because the setting is Japan or our world, doesn't mean it is EXACTLY like our world.

[soranokira]

Anything is possible with the power of imagination. SCIENCE HAS NO BUSINESS HERE!

[Pax Empyrean]

As soon as I see 1 core-element in the manga that defies reality, like people transforming into animals, the manga immediately gets catogorized for me as unrealistic. No matter what happens then, I will just take it as granted. If I can accept that people transform into animals, then I can easily believe that an Ant would be stronger than a bear.

You're definitely in the minority then. Maybe next time you won't say that someone is dumb for reacting to factual errors in fiction with the real world as the setting, even if there are some fantastic elements. He's not dumb for being annoyed by this; shutting off any critical analysis of a story as soon as the first fantastic element shows up seems a lot dumber to me, but you can be a passive and uncritical reader if you want.

[PROzess]

You know what I can be? A douchebag.
I call whoever I want dumb

Actually, I don't give a fuck what you or for that matter anyone else on this planet thinks about this fucking manga or anything else.
It was a good topic to flame, so I posted.
Yes, I'm that lonely that I have to flame random topics.

[Pillamelai]

You know what I can be? A douchebag.
I call whoever I want dumb

Actually, I don't give a fuck what you or for that matter anyone else on this planet thinks about this fucking manga or anything else.
It was a good topic to flame, so I posted.
Yes, I'm that lonely that I have to flame random topics.

Some people don't know when to apologize and admit their mistakes.

They are totally right. This is fantasy all right, but it's set in the real world, not in an imaginary world. If the author were told (by his editor, for instance) that he is wrong about the relationship between lions and bears, he would say either "I didn't know, I'll think about changing it or not" or "I knew, I sacrificed realism in order to emphasize the lion's symbolic status as king of the animals".

My point is: when you place fantasy in the real world, you need to describe the fantasy fantastically, and the real world, realistically.

[PROzess]

Some people don't know when to apologize and admit their mistakes.

You mean me?
I don't make mistakes, so I don't need to apologizes.

[shogiban]

Okay I wasn't going to post but I have just a few things to say:

@ PROzess... thank you for doing an amazing job translating this and other manga that we all enjoy.

Now, ever since I've been a young lad I've always heard lions as being referred to as the "King of Beasts". Now you could argue that elephants are stronger, or honey badgers are fiercer (yes! Honey Badgers, don't believe me... youtube or google it!) but the lion has always had this title. Could it be because of its mane, maybe because of its commanding roar? I don't know. What I do know is that lions usually spend their days in a pride. In this pride its the female lions that do the lion share (pun intended) of the hunting and killing. They work as a group. Thats just one thing that I figure i'd bring up which I thought was sorely missing from the discussion since we are so bent on bringing reality to the table... just a thought here but if the usually solitary bear happened upon a group (pride) of lions, well let's just say my money would be on the lions.

Okay well, you all can disect, critique, and flame now. Oh and by the way this was my first post! Again PROzess, thanks. Without your translations I guess we wouldn't have the opportunity to discuss the application of realistic elements in a work of fiction. Imagine that!

[PROzess]

Again PROzess, thanks. Without your translations I guess we wouldn't have the opportunity to discuss the application of realistic elements in a work of fiction. Imagine that!

Yeah and I would have no chance to flame
Guess it's a win-win situation

[Buroguy32]

You know what I can be? A douchebag.
I call whoever I want dumb

Actually, I don't give a fuck what you or for that matter anyone else on this planet thinks about this fucking manga or anything else.
It was a good topic to flame, so I posted.
Yes, I'm that lonely that I have to flame random topics.

Some people don't know when to apologize and admit their mistakes.

They are totally right. This is fantasy all right, but it's set in the real world, not in an imaginary world. If the author were told (by his editor, for instance) that he is wrong about the relationship between lions and bears, he would say either "I didn't know, I'll think about changing it or not" or "I knew, I sacrificed realism in order to emphasize the lion's symbolic status as king of the animals".

My point is: when you place fantasy in the real world, you need to describe the fantasy fantastically, and the real world, realistically.

if u want to complain go to the author and editor., not to the scanlator sheesh