66 replies to this topic

[Kishuy]

Why not Maintains the current one, but please change the Jesus thing for your logo? As for change, just suggest that reading at batoto is better. You can add. A black page explain the summary on the subject át. The begining.

[©®åƒ†¥µåGGø†]

So for those just getting to this thread, I'm going to direct you here http://vatoto.com/forums/topic/3914-batotos-policy-on-watermarks/

here http://vatoto.com/forums/topic/2091-mangafox-how-noez-does-business/

here http://vatoto.com/forums/topic/1957-batoto-is/

and finally something from myself http://vatoto.com/forums/topic/2329-watermark-and-scanlation/page__st__76
Several members covered a number of different points in that last thread I linked to, so if you've got the time to read.

And now to consider any points that may have been missed... *sigh*

Time to read. Whole watermark topic kinda feels past the sell-by though, doesn't it?

[KiTA]

in the end it's just all complaints from selfish leechers who can't wait for the clean release to be out to read it. There's no countering this argument.

Yes, it is in fact somewhat difficult to counter a strawman attack COMBINED WITH an ad hominem fallacy at the same time. Funny how completely illogical arguments are somewhat hard to logically debate.

So just to be clear -- calling anyone who disagrees names and making sweeping generalizations about one side of the debate? Not really a way to win hearts and minds. But then again, if we're using strawman and ad hominems, then I really shouldn't bother listening to you, since your name is in pseudo-Japanese, which obviously means you're a rather thick Naruto and/or K-ON fanboy who is killing the manga industry.

(See how that works? Or rather, doesn't?)


But in all seriousness: bringing the conversation back to a realistic discussion -- I did the right thing, guys. I started going to Batoto instead of MangaFox. I commented and asked for help with the search feature, the only feature of MangaFox that Batoto didn't have, and within like 12 hours he had it fixed, so literally there's no reason to go back to MF other than to check for the rare few mangas that BTT doesn't host. I did the right thing, guys, right?

Well, no, cause now the right thing is "Go to batoto AND install a nonstandard plugin," which is not really a reasonable request in my mind -- but we all know why Japanzai is doing it, and the goal isn't entirely ignoble. And I can live with waiting 24 hours, even though it's a bit annoying. (Why can't the watermarked releases be flagged or something early on so I'd know to just wait a bit? AT least when they're re-uploaded they pop back up to the top of the search results-by-date.)

Of course, I'm waiting for the next-next logical step, which to me would be "Go to Batoto, install a plugin, AND donate a small amount for a premium account to get past the anti-Noez login prompt on the first 24 hours of releases on Batoto or to get past the PDF DRM," which will make perfect sense, as the previous steps did. Most steps down the slippery slope do.

(Protip: A script could embed small pixel damage (aka an invisible watermark, meta-data would also work) to an image that would hide username or IP information -- meaning that Batoto or Japanzai displayed images could, in fact, watermark the information of the people viewing them in the files themselves. This would allow you to know exactly which account and/or IP Noez's bot is coming from. Furthermore, if you do go to the "only registered accounts can access releases in the first 24/48 hours path, this would allow you to shut the bot down really quite quickly -- you'd simply look at MangaFox after they posted your stuff, notice what USername downloaded said images to share with them, and ban the user. Requiring a SomethingAwful "Cult of tenbux" style token donation to get an upgraded account of this kind would also prevent Noez from just signing up a billion times, too, and you could write it off as donations to try and pay for Batoto and or Japanzai hosting and helping fight Noez. Making the files available after 24/48 hours would silence the complaints of the leechers, especially if non-premium accounts were simply not told that they are missing out -- no premium account, you simply don't see the new chapters in the list. Of course, then you miss out on the free advertising having "Coming soon: Chapter 3. Read NOW with a premium account." links would give you...)

... God, I'm clearly on the wrong side of this argument. Maybe I should head over to Japanzai's forums and start offering suggestions.

But for now, I'll just continue to forward MangaFox links to the US Licensees (I've already gotten in touch with Viz's legal department, looking into getting in touch with Seven Seas next) to try and get MF closed down for violating the grey area rule of scanlation ("don't host/scanlate what is legally available in the west"). Man, I wish I was better suited to speak Japanese, cause man, forwarding MangaFox links and the pirated merch to the actual Japanese publishers would cause a shitstorm that I would pay good money to see.

All of which brings up a good question to sign off on -- besides being an Internet tough guy, calling people who disagree with the holy scanlators who can do no wrong "leechers," and generally being a rather shobon kid... what have YOU done lately to try and stop Noez?

Why not Maintains the current one, but please change the Jesus thing for your logo? As for change, just suggest that reading at batoto is better. You can add. A black page explain the summary on the subject át. The begining.

One of the other recent releases by Japanzai had an actually respectful, professional watermark that I could read without feeling like I was being insulted. It was that one ecchi manga about a girl being possessed by a pervert Angel who has forced her to wear an enchanted, perversion-absorbing chastity belt. Forget the name offhand. There was a typo in it, but hey, I read it closely enough to actually see said typo, that's something, right?

Edited by KiTA, 01 February 2012 - 07:19 AM.

[Kishuy]

Ok, that plot is kind of...

Anyway a 24h waiting period for a clean release seems to me more than resoanable, even if they werent protesting.

Does it still apear on batoto? They they should add something like: "clean version within 24h in batoto.net"

[Koro]

KiTA, consider giving this a read if you're sending info to publishers: http://japanzai.com/index.php?topic=814.0
If you ever needed an argument as to how NOEZ are worse than scanlators, it's in there. They host scanned volumes of licensed work (eg. official Tokyopop publications as opposed to series that have been licensed for eventual English release), something I haven't yet seen a scanlator do.

[Kishuy]

I was wondering, in europe this counts? I mean jumps owns the rights in japan, viz, etc in América but most mangas dont have a publisher in europe.

The comíc store here orders everything from the us.

[KiTA]

I was wondering, in europe this counts? I mean jumps owns the rights in japan, viz, etc in América but most mangas dont have a publisher in europe.

The comíc store here orders everything from the us.

I'm quite certain that that will be Noez's defense. He doesn't exist in the US, he's in CHina or Hong Kong, so he doesn't have to listen to US law.

However, generally speaking since he is making it available to US readers, and using the US copies that the US companies are making, and with the Berne Convention, they will generally be able to shut him down.

[Kishuy]

I guess most fansub are american or do it for american public.

Anyway, other than japanzai titles, im still to see watermarks here só i guess this hasnt escalate.

[G@mes mani@c]

Umm....Can u guys give me a link to the chapter with watermarks?? I have yet to see a chapter with watermarks.

[ClockCat]

Does anyone know how to read chapter 10 of DxD?

The entire thing is covered in text, saying it is watermarked unless you read it on batoto. But I'm here. And I can't read it. :I

I'm using Chrome, and installed the addon to support the file type they said. It still is unreadable though.

Edited by ClockCat, 03 February 2012 - 10:18 PM.

[Koro]

Ch10 has APNG watermarks. Either use a compatible browser (eg. Firefox), read at Japanzai with javascript enabled or wait <24 hours for the clean version.
*The Chrome addon works for some and not for others. I'm assuming it's due to another extension/plugin conflicting with it (hence why it works perfectly for some), but I'm not sure.

Edited by Koro, 03 February 2012 - 10:33 PM.

[G@mes mani@c]

Just saw the watermarks. This situation with mangafox has really escalated.Clock Cat, I'm able to read the chapter in Firefox ( u have to wait for the whole page to load). Will the watermark-free chapters be released later??

[Koro]

Yes, the watermark-free version will be made available after <24 hours, as usual.

[CurdsInWay]

Ch10 has APNG watermarks. Either use a compatible browser (eg. Firefox), read at Japanzai with javascript enabled or wait <24 hours for the clean version.
*The Chrome addon works for some and not for others. I'm assuming it's due to another extension/plugin conflicting with it (hence why it works perfectly for some), but I'm not sure.

Are the APNG watermarks a new thing? Whatever type of watermark you were using before worked fine on Chrome. I believe APNG is compatible with only Firefox or Opera (Chrome with addon). Just so you know, that leaves a ton of people out in the rain.

[Koro]

We've used them on and off. Unfortunately not all browsers support APNG. Between Firefox, Opera and Chrome with the addon, however, ~90-95% of visitors (according to our logs) should be supported. I've asked Grumpy about adding APNG support for Batoto (like we recently added at Japanzai, so it'll work on any browser with javascript enabled), but I'm aware that adding to their reader is a pain they won't necessarily want to go through.

[benfiend]

I don't see a difference on any of the sites. I find chapter 10 in English translation to be as impossible to read on this site as it is on any other. What is the point of scanlating manga if people can't read it?

[rudyart]

i don't use the chrome extension... i see the watermark but it disappears quickly so it's no hassle actually... <-- gotta love the cute pandas!

[sterob]

Whatever japanzai and many other scanlation group are doing is just simply what the hollywood capitalist/ Lamar Smith say "piracy". Long gone the old time when we just simply sharing cool stuffs and spread the love about japanese culture. Now scanlation has become all about cold hard calculated profiteering. It has changed from "sharing a VHS tape to anyone i know" to "only share a VHS tape to my rich friend circle so i can get something back in the future".

Remember the old golden days people!

[ClockCat]

Update to my post the other day. I found a non-obscured readable version on another site about 30 minutes after my post.

I don't believe that was your intent (to drive people away from here to a certain foxy manga place) so I thought I would let you know.

The watermark doesn't disappear for me on batoto, it just stays and obscures the entire comic, making it unreadable. I'm not sure why.

[Aeleth]

...

I'm quite certain that that will be Noez's defense. He doesn't exist in the US, he's in CHina or Hong Kong, so he doesn't have to listen to US law.

However, generally speaking since he is making it available to US readers, and using the US copies that the US companies are making, and with the Berne Convention, they will generally be able to shut him down.

I am not a lawyer, but borders haven't been able to stop law for quite some time. If anything you can request court to make judgement without defendant presence and request his country to uphold the verdict. The conventions only make it easier.

My point is Copyright isn't country based and even even scanlators are in the law grey area (or worse) since simple change in language does not override ownership, not to mention they still distribute images with their translation (which, i believe, is protected under DCMA as nonprofit).


As for this APNG/GIF travesty, this is everything what is wrong with current scanlation scene. I am avid opponent of online reading, but never told anybody how he should read his manga. This makes me unable to read manga in a way I want - offline in my favourite reader. As far as I am concerned, Japanzai does anything it can to make money of us regardless if they say otherwise. Number of hits compared to other popular series with much more chapters speaks for itself. I just hope the support from the Batoto's side is not intentional (even unofficially), because that would be very disappointing.

And btw, did you people know that APNG was developed by mozilla in their freetime between doing nothing and was actually rejected by PNG group as terrible?