22 replies to this topic

[truepurple]

If Slan was "already strong enough" then why not just have Slan save world. Slan is a monster after all, and will get stronger, not weaker, getting closer to the tower.

 

Or how about teaching Slan how to control and use her strength. Like how to not destroy stuff by putting too much force into it. How do do fancy moves like jumping from cliff edges, she shouldn't have needed MC to bring her  down (also she's tough enough that theoretically shouldn't she have been able to just survive a jump straight down? She is a slime, they do specialize in physical resistance, especially impact) How to channel her strength into a sword and sword moves. Making her a sword strong enough that it won't break when she uses it. Or making her a spiked mace or war hammer. Could put armor on her too, she's strong enough that such weight shouldn't slow her down much.

 

But no, she learns ****ing cooking and sewing! And no weapon for her at all. Can anyone give me any way to see this other then rather sexist? The girls don't save the world, and she's the future love interest of the protagonist, so especially doesn't save the world.  And as great as this comic is, I do notice while a few female fighters, alot more male ones. While a few female teachers, (that teach ****ing cooking and sewing! And magic, but not to Slan) more male ones.

 

Fine, if you want to teach her ****ing cooking and sewing, teacher her other stuff too, and equip her well at the same time!

 

Yes, I know the bad guys are trying to get Slan for her being a Blue metal slime. All the more reason to teach her to fight so she can defend herself! If she becomes a ****ing damsel in distress I might rage a bit, and they do seem to be building towards that.

 

If the protagonist gives up the item of power that can destroy/save the world to save Slan being used as a hostage,(with only the bad guys word they will release her/not harm her if he capitulates)  **** **** and **** **!

Edited by truepurple, 13 October 2016 - 05:15 PM.

[Bjornulf]

I don't know.  I get that you can take it to be sexist, but in this case I don't think so.  Sewing and cooking are both valuable skills and require lots of care/control.  Who knows, maybe she'll be able to apply that to other aspects of her life.

Beyond that, she is a 'teenage' girl who loves(romantically or not) a guy who is strong but lacks skills at taking care of himself(comfort).  Her motivation has always been love not fighting, so it would be weird for her to all of a sudden want to eclipse rather than help Baki. Honestly, I think it less sexism than it is Baki's story.  Baki's development.  Slan is just a device to show that.  You can't make her too awesome or then what's the point of Baki?

 

There is a case for Baki himself being sexist, but when it comes to Slan I think it's more a parent child issue.  Would you raise your beloved house pet to fight FOR you and intentionally send them into dangerous situations? Or would you want them to avoid those things?

 

Lastly, yeah you could give her armor and weapons, but she doesn't need them.  Also, do you really want to see a super buff Slan in a suit of full plate wielding a gigantic blunt sword(gender swapped Berserk(manga))? 

Edited by Bjornulf, 21 October 2016 - 04:57 PM.

[truepurple]

I thought of the wax on, wax off angle much earlier. But I don't think so. Even when she had many of the concepts of cooking down, she was still accidentally cutting up the chopping board too. Meaning strength control was the least of their concerns. And that only works as a step 1, learning to control your strength. step 2 would be teaching her to use her strength or it's all for not in actual combat. No step 2!

 

Sewing and cooking are both valuable skills

 

For living a regular life, not saving the god damn world! And if they are so valuable, why didn't they teach the protagonist? Or the magician? Oh right, because they were too busy learning actual combat useful skills!

 

If that was their concern, send a goddamn chief and tailor with! If it's for life skills afterwards, teach those after they win! If they don't win, there won't be a afterwards!

 

Her motivation has always been love

 

No, friendship. And what, her whole point of being, is "love"? or is she allowed to have more than one side to her? Presumably if love blossoms between them, MC would love her back yet he also has saving the world, goofing off, making fireplaces etc. Ok so there isn't alot to the character. At least more than one word. Or is she a care bear?!? I guess I missed the pages where a symbol showing her one theme/aspect of her appears on her belly and shoots out as a beam.

 

Plus, it was the mentors decision, not hers. (this is going to be a theme in this reply) Granted she could have protested and insisted but it starts with them.

 

not fighting,

 

I see, fighting for love and to protect the one you love is so mutually exclusive to love. Why didn't I think of this earlier. I mean it's not like fighting to gain/protect/avenge love is a common trope in hero stories or anything.

 

so it would be weird for her to... eclipse rather than help Baki.

 

Ah, so what your saying is, the mentors really liked Baki as the MC excentric who starts low but gains strength, perfect for MC and be damned the fourth wall. Plus he's male, unlike that stupid love interest character Slan (even though she starts out genderless, but forget about that, she's a woman now)  so the mentors felt it would be outrageous for her to be strong enough to help and support Baki in combat, I mean there's the small chance she could grow stronger than him and not become a damsel in distress. The mentors decided not to chance it and give her any useful in equipment or combat skills at all. In all seriousness, that seems pretty sexist.

 

Besides, they didn't teach her support magic/combat either!

 

There is a case for Baki himself being sexist,

 

Baki didn't tell the mentors to only teach her bloody cooking and sewing! And leave her completely unequipped. So how is it his fault?

 

intentionally send them into dangerous situations? Or would you want them to avoid those things?

 

Again not Baki's choices about training her or not, equiping her or not. Also she has been going with him and whether they remain going with him or he can unsuccessfully dodge them, leaving them in town, in a attempt to go along. Training Slan or not, equipping her or not, doesn't matter. He is also planning to leave the magician behind, yet see how he was trained in magic.

 

Of course he won't be alone till the final boss, each enemy they encounter peeling off one them who irrationally chooses to stay behind and fight so the rest can go ahead. Not like they can combine their strengths and kill each foe fast even if every second counts (realistically it will be faster to fight the final boss with a group thus saving precious time and radically increasing win chance)

 

Lastly, yeah you could give her armor and weapons, but she doesn't need them. 

 

How do you figure? Yes, she does.  Or if she's so physically tough, why didn't she just jump down the cliff herself, instead of acting frightened as the MC carried her down?

 

And of course she needs a weapon. Even if the weapons her hands and legs, she still needs to be able to use them properly, AKA teach her martial arts.  Or a actual weapon gives her more range and attack ability. She would be stronger with a weapon. So she "needs" a weapon, or are you switching back to her already being strong enough to win this on her own?

 

Also, do you really want to see a super buff Slan

 

I didn't say physical strength increasing training, it's the one thing she doesn't need. Besides, clearly she doesn't increase muscle mass with strength since she is already strong yet has no visible muscle mass. Besides which, buff female character, sure, why not. Geez, it's for story, not to oogle a 2d female like you've never seen a real one. So if they are muscle bound, so what? And I personally think that's not the ugliest thing on a woman, there are men who like that. Again, all completely irrelevant like I said at the start of this paragraph.

 

in a suit of full plate wielding a gigantic blunt sword?

 

You mean like those used in Claymore? Sure, why not? Plenty of president for female characters wearing armor and especially for them carrying giant ass weapons bigger than them, not that it needs to be giant or that there even needs to be precedence.  It could be a small compact super durable spiked mace. Just some weapon strong enough to use her strength with that won't crumble.

 

Something else missed in training, the three of them are suppose to be fighting together, so why the hell not teach them team combat technics? Ways to not get into each others way, watch each others back, and combine their strengths, very important for a team!

Edited by truepurple, 21 October 2016 - 11:30 PM.

[NZPIEFACE]

Yes, it's sexist.

So? I just goes to show what that society expects a woman to do to please a man? Well, it even shows that woman need to please men to win their hearts.

It's rather nice insight, and honestly, it shows that Slan has much more to her than just fighting.

[truepurple]

 Yes, it's sexist.

 

Yes, it is, and in a bad way too. Story wise, it's saying they would rather have the world end as they know it, and countless humans slaughtered, rather than allow a single female to fill a stronger role, which makes for a super stupid plot point.

 

 just goes to show what that society expects a woman to do to please a man

 

If by society you mean in RL, no.  Modern society has evolved past that, even in Japan. And even if that wasn't the case, that doesn't need to be enforced in the comic.

 

Ok, let's replace your words a bit

 

"just goes to show what that society expects a nigger to do to please a cracker"

 

Just as acceptable as what you said, very same concept. If you don't see how how this sentiment is so wrong on any number of levels, you might be hopeless. You definitely need some strong education in egalitarianism.

 

Well, it even shows that woman need to please men to win their hearts.

 

You already said nearly the same thing in the line before.

 

If a woman wants to capture the romantic interest of many men, they simply need look good, spend time with them, and show romantic interest, especially if it's a recent bonfire NEET.

 

  If you are talking "heart" as in real love, it should have nothing to do with things like how well you cook, sew, or look.  Theoretically real love is about the real person inside, not what they can do for you.
 

It's rather nice insight,

 

No "insight" at all there.
 

and honestly, it shows that Slan has much more to her than just fighting.

 

Wow, I didn't know it was possible to cram that much BS into one sentence.

 

She doesn't have fighting. She has yet to be shown as relevant in battle. Her strength so far exists solely for the purpose of comic relief and allowing her to travel with the MC without being defeated by random battle debris or something. And now that the MC has gotten all this battle training, and she hasn't not even proper equipment, it guarantees her irrelevance to battle even more now.

 

You say that like cooking and sewing means she is more of a person than she would be otherwise. Like maybe now that she has cooking and sewing, she'd be worthy enough of a person to rescue if the bad guys grab her.

And not only that, you say "much more", like 'Oh she was such a sucky soul, but now that she has cooking and sewing, she's great!'

Yet at the same time you are saying if she could save whole towns or the world or whatever, than that wouldn't do anything for who she is as a person at all. In other words, you are saying women are only real people when they are fulfilling old time stereotypical sexist roles.

Edited by truepurple, 01 November 2016 - 11:02 PM.

[NZPIEFACE]

 

If by society you mean in RL, no.  Modern society has evolved past that, even in Japan. And even if that wasn't the case, that doesn't need to be enforced in the comic.

 

Ok, let's replace your words a bit

 

"just goes to show what that society expects a nigger to do to please a cracker"

 

Just as acceptable as what you said, very same concept. If you don't see how how this sentiment is so wrong on any number of levels, you might be hopeless. You definitely need some strong education in egalitarianism.

I know it's wrong. That world is sexist. What about it?
The author made that world to be sexist, and that's that.

 

It's kind of how an America before the civil war would be racist.

I really wouldn't expect slaves to be treated the same way as their masters.

[truepurple]

Yeah, the author made the world sexist. But a even worser offense is making the world sexist at a severe cost of the story.

 

Also, if this was written 50 years ago, that's one thing, but to be something newly created from someone from a fully developed country,  that's a shame.

 

Also, based on your words NZPIEFACE, you are also sexist, you should look to correct that.

[Yamashita Taiki]

You do know that the Dragon Quest games are usually set in a medieval fantasy type of world, right?

You know, medieval as in kings, queens, knights and women only ever making it to something in life if they marry a rich/aristocratic guy.

You'll say, but hey, it's a fantasy game, it doesn't have to be realistic, but I still don't think it's fair to expect modern values from a medieval world, be it fantasy or not.

And as you can see, this manga is basically a doujin set in the DQ world and I must say the author captured the DQ feel pretty well.

 

So, the question should be, are the Dragon Quest games sexist?

 

Many seem to think they are. In Dragon Quest 5, for example, the player must choose his wife to proceed the story and the alternatives are two rather stereotypical girls, if you ignore Deborah who was added later to the DS version. And then there are all the bunny girls and fan service characters (Jessica, anyone?) etc. in DQ games. I'd say, it's the games that are sexist, if at all, so you're barking up the wrong tree.

[truepurple]

I would think even in real life sexist medieval times, if a women came along strong enough to potentially save the whole world, smart people would support her, since they wouldn't want their personal lives destroyed even if they cared nothing for anyone else in the world.

 

Also, medieval times, women could not get away with wearing such skimpy outfits, (and no magic or monsters or super unrealistic strength etc.) Nor could women accompany men they aren't even married to, to battle. If the story can't even obey RL physics in any way, let's avoid comparisons to real life history, shall we?

 

As far as comparisons to the game much less unrelated games.  When a story transitions from another medium, it almost always undergoes change, I'm sure this one is no exception.  So why not just go a step further and have people who aren't so illogically sexist that they would risk the whole damn world for their sexism.

Edited by truepurple, 02 November 2016 - 07:40 AM.

[Yamashita Taiki]

So your only gripe is that they didn't train Slan to destroy the tower and save the world instead of Baki?

 

In that case, it's easy. They weren't sure if she was strong enough and if she could deal with the miasma. Slan is strong but not nearly as strong as Baki with battle aura.

Baki was chosen specifically because he could learn battle aura fast enough and because he took Maso to become immune against the miasma.

 

But if you want to know why the author chose Baki for this role instead of Slan, it's easy too. Baki is the main protagonist.

It's cliché, but who else could save the world but him? He might have started off as a NEET loser, but his growth is exactly what this manga is about.

Slan is not the main character. If the manga was more realistic, then there's a whole bunch of other characters who could have saved the world instead of Baki.

Why choose a weak no-name guy from nowhere? Well, that's because he gets the main character treatment.

This manga isn't sexist, it's clichéd, but that's no surprise since it's an homage to a DQ game.

[truepurple]

So your only gripe is that they didn't train Slan to destroy the tower and save the world instead of Baki?

 

"Instead of Baki"

 

"Baki for this role instead of Slan"

 

Total fail. This is not a either or proposition. Nothing about what I said or how the manga reads makes a matter of choosing one or the other.  Surely a master trainer can teach two people at once (and there is plenty of trainers to go around for 1 on 1 training too, including Slan like the trainer who trained her for cooking and sewing could have trained her for battle instead or as well) and I even specifically mentioned training teamwork in one of the posts in this thread. (#3)
 

They weren't sure if she was strong enough and if she could deal with the miasma.

 

1. Of course she's strong enough, she's got fricken max strength stat!

2. Of course she can deal with maisma, she's a monster! They clearly explained that monsters get stronger in miasma. Slan is still a monster, even with a human like body.

3. Even if we ignore both 1 and 2 (despite 1 and 2 being HUGE) there is still no excuse to not train and equip her. If these were issues, then there would be no reason for Baki to have companions at all, especially as his other companion is not strong or a monster.

 

They trained that boy with magic, even though he has a decided lack of talent and potential and despite him not being the MC. Why not train and equip Slan? Only answer that comes back is the author is sexist. NZPIEFACE, who is sexist himself even sees it.

Edited by truepurple, 02 November 2016 - 11:45 AM.

[Yamashita Taiki]

>1. Of course she's strong enough, she's got fricken max strength stat!

 

If that was enough, all the other strong people we've seen so far would have already gone in there and destroyed the damn tower. Slan can't be the only person with a high strength stat. If being strong enough was enough, Sypher wouldn't have bothered teaching Baki Battle Aura. Battle Aura seems to be a hax skill that allows you to go far beyond the normal stat limits. Slan would have to learn Battle Aura first, but it was mentioned many times that it's almost impossible to master and Nilam was surprised himself that Baki actually managed to learn it. As for Slan learning new spells, yeah, I guess they could have tried that with her, but it's not like Slan wanted to learn all that stuff you want her to learn but they said no to her. It seems to me like she specifically asked for a sewing & cooking course because she has this naive idea that she needs to be more like a real human girl to impress Baki and win his heart. I feel like you're not seeing the kind of character she is, that is, a naive little monster girl who doesn't know what's good for her, instead you just keep demanding what you'd like to see because you want to see her kick ass.

 

>2. Of course she can deal with maisma, she's a monster! They clearly explained that monsters get stronger in miasma. Slan is still a monster, even with a human like body.

 

It seems fairly obvious, yes, but even Baki wasn't sure what would really happen. He was wondering how Slan would react to the miasma. Plus, he isn't planning on taking her to the tower anyway because he's afraid that the demons are after her and he is, in fact, right about that. So since Baki isn't going to take her with him anyway, there's no real reason to train her for Baki's mission. She's strong enough to deal with normal monsters and probably with even stronger monsters, so they didn't see any need to train her. Duxy, on the other hand, is way too weak and needed training so that he's not completely useless.

 

>3. Even if we ignore both 1 and 2 (despite 1 and 2 being HUGE) there is still no excuse to not train and equip her.

 

Yes, they could have given her a weapon, but she seems like a character that is in the martial arts job to me, and martial artists in Dragon Quest generally fight bare-handed. Only claw weapons can make them stronger, but they're pretty rare. Armor would be great, but they only offered to train them. They won't just give away weapons and armor for free.

 

>If these were issues, then there would be no reason for Baki to have companions at all, especially as his other companion is not strong or a monster.

 

Baki's companions are mainly there to help him get to Granvania and maybe help him get to the tower. The actual destruction of the tower is his mission because he can use Battle Aura. So, in the end, it all comes down to Battle Aura.

Edited by Yamashita Taiki, 02 November 2016 - 01:26 PM.

[truepurple]

If she is better in battle, she can protect herself from the people they know are aiming for her.

 

If she is better in battle, she can contribute to helping save the world more.

 

If they are trained as a team, they will be more effective in dealing with threats.

 

It should be obvious to all that the chances world being saved is better if she is better in battle.

 

Baki isn't planning on taking either of them to the tower, but you can be sure that that will fail. And what's that to do with the trainers decisions?

 

So what are you saying, they are there for when the battles are easy enough for him to win on his own, but when it's time to fight the boss type characters, his teammates should abandon him to fight on his own and go home? That his companions are there only for company, including the new girl sent by the trainer?

 

How does that make sense? How does that make for good storyline?

 

Furthermore, if Slan is there only to keep Baki company, then she should go home or hide right now, not get closer to the enemy. Baki does not need the additional duties of saving her from death and being used as a object of power.

Edited by truepurple, 02 November 2016 - 05:09 PM.

[Yamashita Taiki]

Do you really think she is still better in battle? Just because she was stronger than Baki before Baki learned Battle Aura? Didn't you see how OP Baki's gotten after mastering Battle Aura?

Do you really think Slan has a chance against Gema & co. just because her strength stat is maxed out? Duxy is a noob magician and Slan is a small girl with a high strength stat. Even if they had trained her for the two weeks (was it?), she wouldn't have made as much progress as Baki did. She'd still be a small girl with a high strength stat.

 

Baki not wanting to get his party members to get involved in the boss fights makes very much sense if you consider his personality. He cares too much for them and he's been feeling bad for having involved them in this in the first place. Plus, Slan is pretty much family to him. There's no way he's gonna put his family in a situation that's too dangerous.

 

Yes, it's probably better to have them help out, but what is he gonna do if he meets one of the demons and they kill Duxy or Slan or keep them hostage?

The demons are on a whole different level than the normal monsters you encounter in Granvania.

Also, Baki has had the traumatic experience of having everyone he knew getting wiped out by Gema right before his eyes. Do you think he'll risk something like that again?

 

Before you start criticizing the plot or the author just because it doesn't move in the direction you wanted, please try to put yourselves in the shoes of the characters first.

[truepurple]

Yeah, putting myself in the trainers shoes they would want the best chance to save the world, thus would train Slan. Besides, if that boy can learn magic in a few weeks, Slan can learn some battle moves etc.

 

And putting myself in the trainers shoes, it would best they fight as a team.

 

And putting myself in the trainers shoes, even though they said Slan was too strong, if they believed the rest were too weak, then they wouldn't assign Baki a additional travel companion. They would tell the others to go home and Baki to go on alone. Using your logic, Baki should already be traveling alone. Absolutely no reason for anyone else to accompany him, especially Slan shouldn't be accompanying him because they know she is being targeted.

 

The direction I want for the story is directions that make sense. You are the one failing to "put yourself in the shoes of the characters"

[Yamashita Taiki]

The trainers? It's Sypher and Nilam. You keep talking about them as if they were some heartless people who are only focused on saving the world.

They both understand that they're basically sending Baki to his almost certain death. They feel bad enough for asking Baki to do it, so they wouldn't want Duxy and Slan to risk their lives too. That's why they asked Baki, and only Baki. That's why this mission is Baki's mission.

 

The rest of the trainers were just disciples themselves. They were just "training" Duxy and Slan because they were waiting for Baki anyway. Sypher and Nilam would never train Duxy and Slan. They didn't even tell them about the mission. Neither has Baki. And again, it seems like Duxy asked them to train his magic and Slan asked them to teach her cooking and sewing because she has this desire to become as much like a normal girl as possible so she can get Baki to fall in love with her. It was their choices. It had nothing to do with the trainers dismissing Slan for some reason.

 

Now, about why Baki isn't travelling alone:

 

Until Baki heard about his mission, it was just a "Let's go on a fun trip to Granvania" type of quest, which is why Baki took Slan and Duxy with him.

There wasn't anything particularly dangerous about it, except maybe that monsters in Granvania are a bit tougher.

And Baki didn't know there was a war going on in Granvania either.

 

But as soon as he heard about his mission, he decided not to drag Slan and Duxy into it because he realized it's too dangerous.

As soon as he heard about the demons and the tower, he decided to do it alone. The only reason they're still with him is because he's not near the tower yet and he doesn't know how to explain to them that he's going to do it alone. Remember, Duxy and Slan don't know anything about the mission yet.

 

Now, for Slan being targeted, Baki only knows that she's being targeted by something, but he doesn't know what exactly it is and where they are. He didn't get to hear the whole story, but he has this hunch that it's demons that are after Slan. Would sending her back really be the right thing to do? Wouldn't she be safer at Baki's side for now? Especially since Baki doesn't know what it is that is targeting Slan, he wants to keep her by his side until he knows more.

[truepurple]

Wanting to save the world isn't heartless. Besides, they couldn't possibly believe they are sending Baki to his death since Baki dying would make destroying the tower pointless since it could just be rebuilt.

 

I remember more of the original hero group (yes a group fought the original demon, not a single person) being around for training. And other particular details I think you got wrong. But I got to reread the comics and be sure before I speak too boldly. Regardless, a trainer is able to train more than one person at a time.

 

And a additional follower assigned to the group you would explain how? Or are you of the opinion she is lying and the words one of the trainer brothers forgot to tell Baki were of something else?

Edited by truepurple, 02 November 2016 - 11:52 PM.

[Yamashita Taiki]

>Wanting to save the world isn't heartless.

If you would sacrifice innocent people's lives for it, yes, it is. You can't weigh lives against one another.

 

>Besides, they couldn't possibly believe they are sending Baki to his death

Almost certain death. There's a difference, you know? It's so dangerous that Baki should be prepared to die.

 

>I remember more of the original hero group being around for training.

The original group was the fairy king, the dragon god, Sypher, Nilam, Beatrix and their master. I guess Beatrix could have trained Slan, but she seemed opposed to the idea of sending Baki anyway.

 

>Regardless, a trainer is able to train more than one person at a time.

As I said, Nilam and Sypher chose to not tell Duxy and Slan about the mission. And they were busy training Baki. They had to teach Baki Battle Aura as quickly as possible.

 

>(yes a group fought the original demon, not a single person)

And yet they lost. It doesn't matter how many fight the demon. If we were to believe Sypher, it's all about Battle Aura.

 

>And a additional follower assigned to the group you would explain how?

That additional follower is Yoshio, Nilam's daughter. And nowhere does it say that she is supposed to risk her life. She could be there to help Baki on his way to the tower.

 

>But I got to reread the comics

Yes, you should.

[NZPIEFACE]

Latest chapter, she was restrained by a single demon on not very high ranking.

 

Pretty damn good reason why she isn't going to fight hundreds of them by herself.

[truepurple]

See, my point has been proven. It was super lame of them to not train and equip her. We can't discuss what Slan might have choosen to do when they never gave her the choice in the first place. Now she's a fricken damsel in distress as predicted , I guess this is what everyone in the story wanted, better the bad guys capture her and experiment on her to use her powers than she get trained slightly in combat and equipped.   Even if she was never going a step closer, they should have trained and equipped her.  No ones refuted that other than, it's "suppose to be sexist"

 

I'm tempted to quit reading this comic.

Edited by truepurple, 14 November 2016 - 10:54 AM.