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#1
Master_Aricitic

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Well, after spending ten minutes typing up a response to posts that have since been deleted I'm going to summerize here....

 

 

Firstly, yes, we are leechers. There are somewhere between 7 and 8 BILLION people on Earth. How many produce conent? How many produce useful content? How many actually publish useful content or contribute?

Yes, we are leechers, but so what? This is the internet, if you aren't use to it by now you're either newborn (new to reading) or an idealist... and I prase you for being able to look on the bright side (that is with NO sarcasm).

 

 

Secondly. I no longer care enough to explain my reasonings. I spent 10 minutes thinking this out carefully. I'm state it simply: I'm no longer reading this here. I'll read it elsewhere.



#2
kyrex

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I understand their reasoning. I understand why the staff might remove dozens of series on a regular basis to legally cover their asses. I understand how certain translation groups don't want their work stolen... But I don't get why they would punish the users and readers by doing something stupid like this.

 

If the original translators want credit or the chance to slap their name and logo page on every chapter (y'know, that shit that everyone ignore and skips anyways) then they should have released anything in the past year instead of leaving this series abandoned.



#3
Aereus

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If the original translators want credit or the chance to slap their name and logo page on every chapter (y'know, that shit that everyone ignore and skips anyways) then they should have released anything in the past year instead of leaving this series abandoned.

 

It's not a matter of wanting my name on it or not. Do you honestly think I'm that petty? I dedicated 2 years of my free time weekly to doing these scripts and want to see it done right. I owe the author and you that much. And they were never intended for scanlation use either. It's a matter of they were rough scanlations he did privately for practice and were not meant for release. Someone else found a link and posted them without talking to them nor knowing who the translator was despite expressing interest in finding that info out. Had he waited for a response from BokuBoy, he would have also been able to get into contact with me. The translations are decent, but in some key dialogues I was unsure of what exactly was being said for certain important plot points. I would have wanted to check and correct those first before they were posted, and also check over the cleaning since he was a newbie and learning to do it.

 

Heck, look at the credits page to the other series I'm working on and tell me it's about me and not promoting the author/series? It's pretty much there only for info about the author. I don't otherwise touch the actual chapter with any credits, watermarks, funny comments, etc. It would be disrespectful to mark up the art with my own tacky logos or credits.

http://vatoto.com/reader#a54ff30faa3a2dfa

 

I don't find it unreasonable that he may have wanted to ask about posting them. I also don't find it unreasonable that I would want to run a check over things before they're finalized and posted. Does that not seem reasonable to you?

 

The authors for these weekly magazines put A LOT of time and effort into this stuff. We're talking 60-100hrs a week. I want to respect their hard work by making sure I am providing an accurate dialogue of what is said. Japanese is a tricky language and it can be easy to reverse the meaning of a sentence to the exact opposite. That would be bad for readers, right? Those are the kinds of tricky lines I need to check over, as for the LiveTL when I generated the script I only spent 5mins or so per page and "punted" on difficult portions with iffy guesses.

 

Because of all of this I had someone I've previously worked with come forward to offer cleaning help on finishing up the series from where my LiveTLs left off. I'm okay with BokuBoy's efforts being put back up in the near future, but can you give me the time to contact him and get him to make the revisions? I'll then also work with that person to finish up to the end (107).

 

For example, here is a portion of my manga collection in support of authors. All imports, often for titles that aren't in English or weren't at the time of starting to collect the series:

Spoiler


Edited by Aereus, 02 October 2016 - 05:16 AM.


#4
OchaMeido❣

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Plus, I dont understand why you guys are whining about it not being up and stuff.... Aereus doesnt need to translate this series for you. 

If you can go and find another translator, then good for you. 

 

Maybe reading a scanlation release is easy but Translating isnt easy...No one is obligated to do anything. But when it is being done, there have to some kind of 

respect. why respect ? if respect isnt important to you, then you/anyone else can always go to other sites. Yes, Batoto wants visitors and members

but we will not welcome any disrespect and bad judgement  of anyone member who is here to contribute according to our rules to the community.

 

It is kind of same reason why we require membership if  anyone wants to comments in here. We dont want Bots and spam/adbots in here.

Maybe you should think about if you were the translator, what you would feel... 

 

If you dont know the whole story to anything [which isnt necessary to leechers, cause nothing would stop your whinings] ,and you dont like something,

then move on. Batoto have its own way of working. Maybe you should go to MangaFox. It is a good place for you to read the fastest, good quality 

there is.

 

All  translators out in the world , have their own right to their transcripts. same as scanlations have their own right to delay releases.

If no one does releases, where you got the release from? maybe you should answer that question.  It is as simple as that.

 

we respect scanlators /translators. sometimes we have to go against them as Batoto have its own rules to follow, among other stuff...

but for most part we respect them.

 

You guys can whine all you like here... until one of us[mods] thinks otherwise. 


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#5
svines85

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Spoiler

 

 

Spoiler

 

Heh......Wow  >_<

 

Well, if nothing else, I've really got to congratulate the both of you, the two of you have quite succinctly demonstrated the most heinous characteristics of the so-called "Me Generation". You're utterly, unbelievable selfish, along with being completely insensitive to anything and anybody who won't give you what you want.

 

Yup, congratulations, you've both succeeded in painting yourselves as a pair of childish, totally immature brats :)


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#6
miqou

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What Aereus said. It's not about credit, it's about respect. The group puts a lot of effort in every chapter to achieve a result that's flawless. It's to show respect to the author and to provide the best experience for the readers. Also spending their free time working on the chapters or LiveTL, only that their translation then gets snatched away and gets a half-baked release by some stranger. Its not the first time non-group chapters got deleten, as they get copied to bigger manga sites and the readers will then never experience the flawless releases.

I know it's not easy to resist the sheer amount of chapters the came out. But at the end its Quality over Quantity for me. And if you're really that desperate for faster releases, maybe show the translators some gratitude and send them a donation, so maybe they'll be motivated enough to work even more overtime.

That being said, my only request to the mods is, to enable the comment section again, some time in the future. (Maybe when all this drama has cooled off.) Because it was the extra cherry on top of the cake to see all the reactions of everyone when a new chapter came out.

#7
Master_Aricitic

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kyrex I doubt you are saying this, but I feel the need to say: I understand their reasons as well. Translation is hard. Typesetting is (usually) hard. Redrawing is f*ing hard. It isn't that I don't do it, it is that I cannot do it.

The point of my original comment, which was auto deleted throws svines85 post right back in their face.
Yes, Aereus wants to be respectful of the original mangaka. I honor and respect that. What I do not, and cannot respect is people thinking they have any moral, legal or intellectual rights to things the original PUBLISHER has every right to claim is stolen.
The Fair Use act does not cover redistribution, if these translations were done for personal or academic use and never shared they would be covered, but uploaded to ANY website that hosts it for everyone to see? No.

Again, I am by no means calling 'scan'lation groups thieves, or suggesting they should stop or be punished. My point here falls along the lines of what happened to one group where a member removed their stored files from a download site: the site refused to restore it because they not only didn't have legal 'rights' to it, but were illegally storing stolen copyright materials (I will provide a link for when I have a computer).

If 'scan'lation groups wanted protection for their works they should write letters to the mangaka or publisher and ask permission. If they are told "no" then either give up or try again later. None of you are doing this with permission, none of you are doing this with the content creator (or content owner's) permission. Most of you are simply being ignored as we are in a different country and it woukd be far more effort than it is worth to step in.


Finally, since I have to get to work, I want to say one or two final things. I am a content creator. I wrote four fan fiction stories. Two were reuploaded without my permission. Did I get pissy? No, I was honored.
If my non-fanfiction ever gets to a stable and publishable state, and if I am blessed to have a following in the US or other languages I will have two rules: 1. So long as there is not a legal published translated version in your country/and you wre not making a profit from the translation it may be hosted anywhere, by anyone. And 2. You MUST accept that you, by. O means, own any rights, barring the most BASIC copyright 'rights' to translations based off of my works (i.e. you must be credited if your work is used, permission is ideal, but since you didn't get mine, not required). FINALLY: anyone may use ANY of the things I have created for ANY reason, barring two things (and those have minimum requirements) my main character(s) and the word Aricitic. My permission is not required, and I don't care what you use my concepts for.
Should I change my mind on the above for any reason I will patent, IP patent, or strictly copyright (and not publish on the internet) those specific works.

I deeply respect the work translators do (and certainly the rest of the group) but this throwing around ownership of stolen goods is insulting. Morally, socially, and intellectually insulting. I don't WANT people sued over this, but at least it would get them to understand what their actual ownership of it is...

Sit... Now I am late. More later...

#8
kyrex

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Spoiler

 

 

So what is it that you want?

 

Do you want your name attached to the translation? Do you want to be involved in some way with this other translation? Do you want a credits page that tells people to go support the author?  Is the problem that you weren't involved? Is the problem that someone used a poor quality translation? Is the problem that you feel the translation is inaccurate and doesn't do the series justice? Is it that you feel these scanlations somehow discourage people from supporting the official release?

 

A lot of these can simply be fixed by amending the credits page with some extra information. All of this drama is entirely unnecessary and only serves to cause more problems for you. If you feel a better version could be made, a simple reupload to replace the low quality version could be done as well. I understand your passion and I understand that you don't want your work being used without your permission. However, consider the feelings of the fans and the guy who put in all the hard work to clean and typeset 25 chapters on his own: The series was dead in the water, as far as we could tell. 2 to 3 months between releases with no word from the only scanlators who ever worked on it. The series is officially over, as far as we've heard, and along comes someone who nearly completes the series and posts it all.

 

If you feel like it wasn't meant to be scanlated at all, then this is the wrong site to quarrel over that. If you feel like fans should learn japanese and buy the tanks themselves, yet again, wrong place to say so. If you just wanted to be involved and felt that it was wrong for Boku Boy to do what he did without permission, then sort that between you two, because this makes you look like the bad guy... And for anyone screaming about leechers and entitled brats, you are really not in the right place to be doing that. Especially not you batoto staff, because there's an assload of ads on every page of every manga that everyone else worked hard on, and you aren't sharing a cent with the scanlation teams.


Edited by kyrex, 02 October 2016 - 02:42 PM.


#9
Master_Aricitic

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So what is it that you want?
 
Do you want your name attached to the translation? Do you want to be involved in some way with this other translation? Do you want a credits page that tells people to go support the author?  Is the problem that you weren't involved? Is the problem that someone used a poor quality translation? Is the problem that you feel the translation is inaccurate and doesn't do the series justice? Is it that you feel these scanlations somehow discourage people from supporting the official release?
 
A lot of these can simply be fixed by amending the credits page with some extra information. All of this drama is entirely unnecessary and only serves to cause more problems for you. If you feel a better version could be made, a simple reupload to replace the low quality version could be done as well. I understand your passion and I understand that you don't want your work being used without your permission. However, consider the feelings of the fans and the guy who put in all the hard work to clean and typeset 25 chapters on his own: The series was dead in the water, as far as we could tell. 2 to 3 months between releases with no word from the only scanlators who ever worked on it. The series is officially over, as far as we've heard, and along comes someone who nearly completes the series and posts it all.
 
If you feel like it wasn't meant to be scanlated at all, then this is the wrong site to quarrel over that. If you feel like fans should learn japanese and buy the tanks themselves, yet again, wrong place to say so. If you just wanted to be involved and felt that it was wrong for Boku Boy to do what he did without permission, then sort that between you two, because this makes you look like the bad guy... And for anyone screaming about leechers and entitled brats, you are really not in the right place to be doing that. Especially not you batoto, staff, because there's an assload of ads on every page of every many that everyone else worked hard on, and you aren't sharing a cent with the scanlation teams.


While I cannot say I read the entire thing, I am on 15 minute brake, I still agree.
The beauty of bato.to is that things can be replaced or posted twice. The beauty of bato.to is thst communication can happen.
The irony is that this seems to rarely happen.

For the love of all that is intellectual people these are NOT your original works. You are willingly and freely uploading things onto public domain websites thst provide no legal protection for the things you post, although if they were posted to sites with active copyright protection they would be rejected wnd the user likely warned or banned for posting illegal, stolen copyright materials.

And I AM NOT saying this lightly. I posted my stories to a Google site I created. The only protection I receive from that is non-hacking and backups. Google isn't going to do sit for me if my material is stolen, and I AM the original creator... The legal owner.
I chose to post it there knowing full well what could happen to the parts of stories. I created the site knowing full well that anyone who entered it would forever have a copy of what was posted.

The vast majority of the internet is open domain. The only legal protection you get is basic copyright, and whatever the lawyer you hire gets for you in a court. It is like putting your furniture beside the road (on the shoulder or past the sidewalk, depending on where you live) and expecting people to be respectful of it. You (effectively) threw it away at that point.

But, no, this is worse. THIS is like you took your neighbors furniture, made some modifications, and THEN put it on the side of the road (barring the difference between digital and physical of course). You didn't own the furniture in the first place, you modified it, wnd now you expect protection for it?

Bah, bad examples.


I want to repeat. I fully respect the work, time wnd effort people put into this. It is something that I am incapable of doing (drawing or translating), what irks me is people's insistence on rights they have no... right... to.
The ONLY reason 'scan'lation groups have any rights or respect here is because thr mods and owner GIVE it to them. Legally, morally and intellectually neither of you have a foot to stand on... OR provide the documentation from the mangaka and publisher thwt shows I am wrong. Please. I (seriously) WANT to be wrong.

Finally, as I am late again, follow the rule of the internet. If you don't want it used without your permission don't post it... Or get a lawyer. That is what I have or will have to do if anyone uses my content without my explicit blessing...

#10
Master_Aricitic

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Since I am on lunch I thought I would add clarification.

The reason I am pushing the legality of 'scan'lations and what actual rights or ownership people have to/over this is because it is the specific counter argument to the statement "I didn't give you permission to * with my (translation/work)".
You are right. You are ALL right. People SHOULD ask before using something that is not theirs. But you are responsible for the same thing. The hypocrisy with your argument is so foul it is insulting.
THAT and THAT alone is my main issue.
Why should anyone listen to someone whining about permissiins and rights who, by nature of creating the very thing for their argument violated someone elses.


I do not hate 'scan'lators. I respect and honor (most of) them. That is part of the reason for hy it irritates me so much when they act this way.


Finally, you want the mangaka to be honored and respected? You wwnt thekr works done justice? Don't tranlate them and distribute the translstions. Bring attentio. To the works within your country, yes, but to legal entities that can legally and accurately translate and publish the works.
By all means, tranlate for your own benefit. You, legally, have that right. But if you are going to claim someone else's work based off your work isn't "good enough" then why should anyone assume yours is?

Please, don't stop 'scan'lating, translating, or redrawing, but if you expect or demand respect for your works, do the rational thing, don't present it to anonymous people who, by nature of the internet and anonymity will do the opposite.

#11
OchaMeido❣

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I understand your passion and I understand that you don't want your work being used without your permission. However, consider the feelings of the fans and the guy who put in all the hard work to clean and typeset 25 chapters on his own: The series was dead in the water, as far as we could tell. 2 to 3 months between releases with no word from the only scanlators who ever worked on it. The series is officially over, as far as we've heard, and along comes someone who nearly completes the series and posts it all.

 

If you feel like it wasn't meant to be scanlated at all, then this is the wrong site to quarrel over that. If you feel like fans should learn japanese and buy the tanks themselves, yet again, wrong place to say so. If you just wanted to be involved and felt that it was wrong for Boku Boy to do what he did without permission, then sort that between you two, because this makes you look like the bad guy... And for anyone screaming about leechers and entitled brats, you are really not in the right place to be doing that. Especially not you batoto staff, because there's an assload of ads on every page of every manga that everyone else worked hard on, and you aren't sharing a cent with the scanlation teams.

 

First of all, You have no proof of who that someone is .... or if that someone is the uploader{ which in this case isnt....}..  

That "someone" who nearly completed the series isnt the one who posted it all....the lastest release is a week ago...so I am not sure what you are tryin to say.

 

Second,  she never say/feel anywhere that "it wasnt meant to be scanlated at all", she just have her own procedure of doing it. so that "If" of yours

have no place.

This isnt the "wrong site" as everyone can quarrel over what /cant be scanlated in the forum, but there is just a limit to where that topic goes.

 

Third, excuse me? ..... you are blamin me an staff? huh... it seems like you dont know anything about staffs in reader site... go and say that to our admin. See

what he got to say to you. YOU arent a scanlator/translator, you have no say in anything related to any scanlation nor the earning they should receiving.

And if you are one, then go right ahead. The admin is standin by to deal with your fair-share of earning.....rite.

The Fair Use act does not cover redistribution, if these translations were done for personal or academic use and never shared they would be covered, but uploaded to ANY website that hosts it for everyone to see? No.

Again, I am by no means calling 'scan'lation groups thieves, or suggesting they should stop or be punished. My point here falls along the lines of what happened to one group where a member removed their stored files from a download site: the site refused to restore it because they not only didn't have legal 'rights' to it, but were illegally storing stolen copyright materials (I will provide a link for when I have a computer).

Finally, since I have to get to work, I want to say one or two final things. I am a content creator. I wrote four fan fiction stories. Two were reuploaded without my permission. Did I get pissy? No, I was honored.
If my non-fanfiction ever gets to a stable and publishable state, and if I am blessed to have a following in the US or other languages I will have two rules: 1. So long as there is not a legal published translated version in your country/and you wre not making a profit from the translation it may be hosted anywhere, by anyone. And 2

My permission is not required, and I don't care what you use my concepts for.Should I change my mind on the above for any reason I will patent, IP patent, or strictly copyright (and not publish on the internet) those specific works.

I deeply respect the work translators do (and certainly the rest of the group) but this throwing around ownership of stolen goods is insulting. Morally, socially, and intellectually insulting. I don't WANT people sued over this, but at least it would get them to understand what their actual ownership of it is...

Sit... Now I am late. More later...

 

The first bolded :... that case have nothing to do with our case ... or maybe yes...

cause I did removed those contents since the translator(or in your case one group where a member) ask me to.

But then I cant restore those I removed cause I[we] have no right in restoring it. hmm.. yes, that sounds right.

 

 

 So long as there is not a legal published translated version in your country

 you do know how you sound silly here right?

 

You MUST accept that you, by. O means, own any rights, barring the most BASIC copyright 'rights' to translations based off of my works (i.e. you must be credited if your work is used, permission is ideal, but since you didn't get mine, not required). FINALLY: anyone may use ANY of the things I have created for ANY reason, barring two things (and those have minimum requirements) my main character(s) and the word Aricitic. 

 

  wait, you say I have to have basic right to translate your work ... but then you go on sayin any may use any thing you created barring two things...

ehh, sir... you are talkin about your work... but this series isnt your work.  why you bringin your ownership copyrights in here?

 

 I think many scanlators and translator... or should I say people , know more about copyrights than you. 

 

The ONLY reason 'scan'lation groups have any rights or respect here is because thr mods and owner GIVE it to them

 

not give...... >.>' rights and respect arent Given. They earn our respect. whether it is allowed or not is within the bounds of the admin's rules.

And it is a case to case base. It is within Bato,to's goal to respect the scanlators/translator..... only if it is acceptable/ reasonable.

 

Many other factors may come to play with what actual rights they do have here at Bato.to

Batoto lets groups/members contribute to the site as along as it is within our rules. 

 

I am not sure why you are tryin to talk about ownership/copyright when it have nothing to do with you, the reader. O.o

but it is to say it is your given right to comment on this topic to the limit as long as you follow the rules.

There is no need to inform other about what copyright fair act means. 

 

Talkin about accepting that it is how internet works, well...this is how Batoto operates.

 

If there comes time for lawsuits and copyrights issued by the respective agency then I bet Batoto and/or the scanlator will do what's rite.

Until then, yes, everything can be distribute anywhere by mistake or on purpose.

But it goes against Batoto's rules when members  post releases without prior permission or inaccurate credits. 

 

I don't WANT people sued over this, but at least it would get them to understand what their actual ownership of it is...

 I dont Want people to leave Batoto over this, but at least it would let them understand that it is their right/decision to move to another site

if Batoto isnt "fair" to them.


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#12
Master_Aricitic

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This entire argument was created because one person accused another person of stealing their work... Of using it without permission... The individual making that accusation didn't get permission either, yet you immediately removed the other person's uploads without question or a chance for the two to discuss. You silenced the community removing their right to communicate what happened or their views of it, because one individual cried foul of another individual doing the exact same thing to them as they had done to another.

THAT is why I am being an activist here. THAT is the unfair fallacy that I am pointing out.

 

Bato.to's right to do so? Not so much. Scanlators, translators, etc, etc's amazing levels of effort in what they do (eh, for the most part anyway), not so much. That those of us who don't help or translate (etc) shouldn't criticize the efforts of those who do? Not so much. (I could go on...)

 

What I am criticizing is one single person whining about being treated the same way they treated another, and people gracing that individual while condemning the other. "level/quantity/quality" of efforts be damned, you are both thieves who took what you wanted without permission of those who owned it and posted it somewhere you had no 'right to do so' (by the same definition).

That, and that alone is what I am talking about (well, and taking a swing at Bato.to's process at the end).

 

 

I precede this with response to your first two comments.

"So long as there is not a legal published translated versions in your country." i.e. Corporation A has not bought the rights from me to publish, for profit, my works. Meaning, if my works are not being published by someone I authorize to make money for their effort, anyone can do it so long as (as was an earlier clause) it is not for money.

If someone is translating for money, that I have authorized, then cease and desist.

 

As I say later, no this series is not my works. I'm emphasising the lunacy of someone taking another's works, modifying it for their own use, and getting irked that someone else does the same to their own. I use works I do as an example, but I could just as easily use Minecraft and the many mods and their 'butt-clenched-creators' that freak out any time someone tries to modify what they made... You broke into the code of Mojang, what makes you think we can't do the same to yours? The fact that they don't have hundreds or thousands of man-hours to sue each of you?... (end rant)

 

The first bolded :... that case have nothing to do with our case ... or maybe yes...

cause I did removed those contents since the translator(or in your case one group where a member) ask me to.

But then I cant restore those I removed cause I[we] have no right in restoring it. hmm.. yes, that sounds right.

 

 

 So long as there is not a legal published translated version in your country

 you do know how you sound silly here right?

 

You MUST accept that you, by. O means, own any rights, barring the most BASIC copyright 'rights' to translations based off of my works (i.e. you must be credited if your work is used, permission is ideal, but since you didn't get mine, not required). FINALLY: anyone may use ANY of the things I have created for ANY reason, barring two things (and those have minimum requirements) my main character(s) and the word Aricitic. 

 

  wait, you say I have to have basic right to translate your work ... but then you go on sayin any may use any thing you created barring two things...

ehh, sir... you are talkin about your work... but this series isnt your work.  why you bringin your ownership copyrights in here?

 

 I think many scanlators and translator... or should I say people , know more about copyrights than you. 

 

The ONLY reason 'scan'lation groups have any rights or respect here is because thr mods and owner GIVE it to them

 

not give... allow... >.>' rights and respect arent Given. whether it is allowed or not is within the bounds of the admin's rules.

And it is a case to case base. It is within Bato,to's goal to respect the scanlators/translator..... only if it is acceptable/ reasonable.

 

Many other factors may come to play with what actual rights they do have here at Bato.to

Batoto lets groups/members contribute to the site as along as it is within our rules. 

 

I am not sure why you are tryin to talk about ownership/copyright when it have nothing to do with you, the reader. O.o

but it is to say it is your given right to comment on this topic to the limit as long as you follow the rules.

There is no need to inform other about what copyright fair act means. 

 

Talkin about accepting that it is how internet works, well...this is how Batoto operates.

 

If there comes time for lawsuits and copyrights issued by the respective agency then I bet Batoto and/or the scanlator will do what's rite.

Until then, yes, everything can be distribute anywhere by mistake or on purpose.

But it goes against Batoto's rules when members  post releases without prior permission or inaccurate credits. 

 

I don't WANT people sued over this, but at least it would get them to understand what their actual ownership of it is...

 I dont Want people to leave Batoto over this, but at least it would let them understand that it is their right/decision to move to another site if you 

dont like Batoto is.

 

You asked why I am bringing in my own ownership into this.

 

It is easy to push bull around, it is easy to make things (statistics and words, etc) up and throw out fancy words... It is not so easy when you yourself are to be judged by the same values.

The reason I bring my own ownership into this is because I hold myself, as often as I mentally can, to the same high standards. I would never publish something I was afraid would be used without my permission. If I had that fear I would work with an editor and publisher to create published works with a company backing. As it stands I have published a few things within realms that have either no, or practically no protection. Some of which have been moved to locations without my personal permission, and that were individual's websites - bringing attention to that individual for work that I did and they have no right to take 'even the hosting credit' for.

I was not insulted, but honored by this. Something that I created was good enough for someone else to host.

 

My point is: this is the internet. We can argue about laws and ethics all we want, but this will get us nowhere. The pure and simple fact is that every content creator on this site, every content creator anywhere with respect to translation and distribution of manga outside of publishers are acting illegally. Period. (I have an example of a college student or professor at Austin College in Sherman Texas who was granted permission to translate a foreign play, and that play was performed on campus. Without that permission, the college could have been sued. I know this ONLY because my step-father works there. Once I have a link to the example I will provide it). Without the explicit permission of the mangaka and (more importantly) the publisher all of them are committing the same falicy that you removed those chapters for.

The Fair Use clause in the United States laws (http://www.copyright.gov/fair-use/more-info.html and https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Fair_use) does not allow for the redistribution of self-translated works. This effectively includes this entire website, barring only those works translated with permission and only for those individuals or groups who had received the permission (if any).

Silence from a publisher or creator does not mean permission, nor does it mean they do not care. The cost of enforcing these within a different country - especially if those corporations who get the translation rights will enforce it themselves - is substantial. This means that those stories removed because the lawful owner requested/demanded it are not the only ones that the lawful owner wanted removed, the others simply may not have the means of communication (or time).

 

So, what does this mean? Why am I bringing it up?

 

The entire start of this argument was one individual who spent 'hours' translating something (for free) and (freely) posted it has complained that their effort was unfairly used or stolen. However, in most people's view, this would be the kettle calling the pot black. The translation, since it was redistributed, or uploaded somewhere it could be redistributed was, itself, stolen (violation of 'Fair use' and 'copyright). The individual who saw fit to use this translation and copy/paste it into the graphically modified images of the manga itself was doing something identical.

Think of a forger making a forgery of the Mona Lisa, and a forger making a forgery of the forgery. The original forger gets angry that their property was being reproduced and sold and tries to take action against the second forger... See the irony?

 

Now, it has been argued that the translator did not want this because of level of effort. I read (momentarily) an argument about how much time a mangaka spends thinking up a manga before they draw it and how many hours they put into translating the manga. About how they wanted someone 'professional' (or at least with a better pedigree or skill, or some quantifier or qualifier determining how much work they put into it) to be the one who uploaded their translation of the work. That, because the person who 'copied and pasted' their translation (which, if I remember reading correctly, was cited, by them, as having not been proofread) was in insult to the work they and the mangaka did. Etc. Etc.

 

But, isn't this all a moot point? The translator translated the work without the approval, permission or blessing of the mangaka (or, more importantly, the publisher). They violated the work by stealing it in the first place. They denied the right of the mangaka to select what langauge it is in and whom can read it by bringing it into English - and hosting it for free. They, with their 100s/1,000s of hours,  subseded the mangaka's 10,000s/100,000s of hours of work of producing the manga. They hosted/provided a version of the mangka's work in an unauthorized location and way they had not been given permission to do.

 

How are the one who copy/pasted the translator's work and the one who stole the mangka's work different? Education? Some minor viewpoint of 'level of effort'? Certainly not in being granted permission, or legal right.

 

Certainly, if Bato.to receives notice from the publisher - or, miraculously, the mangaka - bato.to will remove the hosted versions of the manga. I recognize that. THAT is not my point. My point is the 'finger pointing' and 'blame calling'.

 

There seems to be a viewpoint of righteousness for scanlation groups, here, and complete disdain for anyone else. 'Content providing' makes 'right', 'leeching' makes evil. But are the 'content providers' not 'leeches' themselves? How many actually went to Japan or imported from Japan rather than getting a scan from someone living in Japan (for free, or with minor donations)? They take the works of the mangakas and, yes, give credit, but so did the one who 'copy/pasted' the translated works. Why are they 'in violation' and viewed as 'skum'? Because both individuals speak English? Because bato.to likes one over the other? Your definitions and reasons don't add up. You say one persion is wrong for not getting permission and the other is right, regardless of the fact they didn't either?

 

And this brings me on to your final part in response to my comments while at work: 

I said: "The ONLY reason 'scan'lation groups have any rights or respect here is because thr mods and owner GIVE it to them."

And you responded:

"not give... allow... >.>' rights and respect arent Given. whether it is allowed or not is within the bounds of the admin's rules.

And it is a case to case base. It is within Bato,to's goal to respect the scanlators/translator..... only if it is acceptable/ reasonable."

Yes, I agree. You are not 'giving' in one context, but 'allowing' in the same context. But you are wrong in the contect of 'rights aren't given'... They are.

Person, group, financial institution, government creates a 'location' people within that location are 'given' the rights that 'group' sees fit to provide them. We aren't talking about 'life, liberty, and right to happyness' here, we are talking about who gets thrown out into the cold vs who gets patted on the back and told: "Good job" or "we'll make it right." and that is something bato.to gives.

 

And you, and your friends (as, again, I sincerely doubt that people are hired here) are the ones who defines what is acceptable/reasonable. -- Or, do you have some legal backing to your decision making? Laws, rules, regulations? Where are these listed, what institution regulates and updates them? Sure, the company that does the ads on this website has input... but only if something is brought to their attention. (same reason that Kodomo no Jikan was never brought to America. Uneducated idiots blackmailed the company).

 

I remember that Rapeman's translation of one manga was frozen for a few days and then deemed acceptable. Considering that I have not seen any updates from it (as I am following) I have to assume it was seen as 'unacceptable' later and therefore frozen again. Swearing? There is a lot of that in SO MANY mangas here. Nudity? Same.

 

"Many other factors may come to play with what actual rights they do have here at Bato.to

Batoto lets groups/members contribute to the site as along as it is within our rules. "

Which, most people would say, are completely arbitrary. I argued many moons ago that your definition of 'child ...' was so arbitrary that it would allow literally anything to be allowed or banned at the same time and for the same reason. (i.e To-Love-Ru vs some things that have been removed for the exact same reason... and, let's be honest here, even people in Japan are recognizing just how much that artist is abusing the rules... as can be seen on a per-chapter basis on sankakucomplex.com [warning, adult themed website, with adult themed ads])

If you want to claim a legitimate, well constructed set of rules, things need to be better defined and strictly worded... which, so far, I have been utterly unable to find (as of a few months ago. I don't care enough to look now). Currently, it is more like a group of friends 'palling' around and deciding things based upon who they like (in any given moment), or, with a significantly more legitimate air, someone coming in and actually complaining about a violation (i.e the Ads site).

 

Also, here you violate your own argument above with regards to 'giving' vs 'allowing.' By creating and enforcing rules, and especially given the arbitrariness of these rules (again, I was desperately looking for a specific set when making an argument for reallowing a manga that had been dismissed), you are giving rights to some and removing them from another. As you state later: "posting releases without permission or 'proper' credits"... the very fact that this argument has come to pass shows just how much bato.to's admins (and friends) are 'giving' 'rights' to some and removing them from others. Aereus, if I am even remotely correct in the actual translator's name, sure as anything didn't get permission to translate the works. Who gives them the right to state what can be done with something they themselves stole? Oh... Right... y.o.u.

Who defines what is proper or improper, accurate or inaccurate 'credits'? Oh... Right... y.o.u.

P.S. Clearly, by 'you' I mean those admins that decide what is removed or what is not - decide who had proper ownership of content, and who does not - decide who has made proper credits and who has not.

 

"I am not sure why you are tryin to talk about ownership/copyright when it have nothing to do with you, the reader. O.o

but it is to say it is your given right to comment on this topic to the limit as long as you follow the rules.

There is no need to inform other about what copyright fair act means. "

When this site defines who has the right to remove or add content based off of ownership (certainly not copyright or the Fair Use Act)... or, more accurately, who has the right to upload based off of hearsay, yes, as a reader, I do. And, not only do I, I have a responsibility to point out the utter lack of ownership 'rights' one person has over content compared to another. No one at Bato.to has rights to any of the content on this website with the sole exception of its domain name and those who made their own avatar images. Everything else was stolen and used without permission.

 

Besides, I wasn't putting that as a reader, I was putting that as an author (as stated above). I was pointing out that I will not publish things on the internet that I don't want used without permission precisely because these rights are not guaranteed when published on non-commercial websites. Post things on Facebook? Better hope it is within their terms of service and privacy policy that they don't use it without your permission - otherwise, they can, and you cannot do anything about it... or that they will assist you in proving your ownership - why should they, you aren't paying them for their hosting services...

Put something on Ancestry.com (or other)? Yes, they do say in their terms of service that they will retain usage rights once you have uploaded to their website, even if you no longer use their service...

 

This is the internet, not a publsihing firm. Things you put here will be used by others, and will exist beyond your means to control them. Period. That is how the 'cloud' works. Any expectation otherwise is insanity (doing the same thing over and over again, and expecting a different result), and has no legal basis... unless the individual has boku amounts of money.

 

Mushoku Tensei has major differences between the web version and the published version(s) for reasons among these. The webcomic was uploaded public domain - with minor copyright protection. The published books are not.

 

"Talkin about accepting that it is how internet works, well...this is how Batoto operates."

You say that as though it changes anything. All Bato.to can do is retrospectively remove things. As was said by someone else (probably the translator themselves): "Once the damage is done, it is done. Once the 'leecher' sites take hold of the content it is out there and there is nothing Bato.to can do about it."

But your authority is only retrospective... unless Bato.to starts vetting all content before it gets hosted... and you do not have the human resources to do that... If pornography is uploaded it is only removed once it is noticed... and even then only if: A, it is reported, and B: (and I go with some of the things that remain hosted on this site) deemed inappropriate.

 

 

"If there comes time for lawsuits and copyrights issued by the respective agency then I bet Batoto and/or the scanlator will do what's rite.

Until then, yes, everything can be distribute anywhere by mistake or on purpose.

But it goes against Batoto's rules when members  post releases without prior permission or inaccurate credits. "

So... you are saying that every scanlation group needs to have their content removed? Or, are you saying accurate credits state who originally did the work? If I recall correctly the translator was mentioned in the first page on those chapters... if briefly...

But, then, a mangaka (or, more importantly, a publisher) would likely think the equivalent of their property being preceded by a single page, and not a sum of money (and their explicit written endorsement).

 

Your assertion of 'prior permission' makes all content on this website violate your own rules. Inaccurate credits... what was inaccurate about the credits page preceding the chapters posted? I saw proper creditation to the translator "and everything else Boku Boy." If the translator was irked that their translation was being used "without permission" then, so what? You used Boku Girl without permission. If it is about creditation... that's already been confirmed as NOT the case.

Your own argument violates itself.

 

/sigh

I said: "I don't WANT people sued over this, but at least it would get them to understand what their actual ownership of it is..."

You replied "I dont Want people to leave Batoto over this, but at least it would let them understand that it is their right/decision to move to another site if you 

dont like Batoto is."

This is no longer about simple preference. For me, this hasn't been about preference for a long time, but instead a sense of elitism brought on and propagated by the mods, their friends, and sub-mods of Bato.to given solely to those they deem worthy of falling within a ruleset. One that is so arbitrary that the same thing can be both within and in violation of the rules at the same time and for the same reason... "One person (mod) found it acceptable, another person (mod) found it unacceptable."

 

You defend yourself and Bato.to by stating that the person who uploaded the images with another's translations was in violation of your rules because they didn't have permission to do so... OR didn't put proper credits within the documents. Yet you completely ignore the fact that the first individual didn't get permission to translate the original document in the first place. Who is punished? The individual who uploaded the documents and the person who translated is blessed. They are both in violation of the same rule, but since one of them has some ties to Bato.to their transgression is ignored while the other person is shunned and anyone who tries to defend them is pushed (by Bato.to) as monsters.

 

I don't feel like going any further.



#13
OchaMeido❣

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Lol activist.. ... how I love that word...

 

Plus, by registerin to our site, you agree to the terms/rules that the site set out. If you dont like Batoto, you may change /read somewhere as you so 

lovingly express in the opening.

 

Your words are your own. You cant be an activist here on batoto. Sorry but there is no political or social change that you can actively participate in

as our site isnt active enough to meet your damands/ necessary changes.  Please do continue to suggest what you may in our suggestion section of the forum.

We wil see what changes we can do.

 

 Since the beginning, there are really nothing to discuss .. but to whine about. Batoto is Bato.to. We only follow what rules our admins set out.

 

AND all our comment sections on Batoto are not use for negatively nor discuss scanlation group/ any non related to the comic series itself.

 

Unless people can avoid those kind of comments... we will see about the comment section. It is cause there is people who

likes to whine on comment section that it isnt safe for anyone to read them without there being some kind of hatred/discomfort in the air....

If people cant have civil discuss about the series in comment section, then the word "mature" [as in mature behavior/attitude]  is in question. 

 

May it all conclude in everyone just being compromise midway. Yes, batoto is unfair in many ways. you disagree with it ,you may communicate in ways

that doesnt distrub the surroundings. Work with the system or work around it but not against the system. 

There are alway alternatives to something. 


ןן Tea Party~ ןן "THE BAR" ןן

ןןGuide to Uploading/deltin/sortin ןן

ןן[Must read] COMMENT SECTIONS RULES ן

Follow the comment sections' rules or else, you will be hanging at the edge of an cliff ^^
It maybe one step closer to death's door or an extension of your life's time.

#14
Master_Aricitic

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Amendment. Because I WAS WRONG.
You are correct. The person who uploaded "didn't know" the translator's name.
You were correct about the bad credits page.

P.S. I will read the above later. It is late and I have to get up early tomorrow for work.

#15
svines85

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Spoiler

 

>_<

 

I'm just telling you, you're seriously embarrassing yourself here. Take a deep breath, and just quit talking.

 

You've got no rights here that aren't given to you by the powers that be, none at all. This is a private enterprise, and those same powers that be took some content down. The End.

 

You never had a right to any of it in the first place. Everything else you're saying is just a bunch of whiny blather. Wishing for releases to come out faster is one thing, but what you're doing here is just asinine and ridiculous.

 

Oh, and if you really want to do something other than just plaintively make demands, you just let me know and I'll give you some links to translators for hire, I'll be glad to send you their way. They're fucking pricey though, I sure as hell can't afford 'em.......of course, that's why I'm always trying to cozy up to anyone who can translate and, you know, be nice to 'em in the hope of them actually translating stuff. You know, like just the fucking opposite of what you've been doing here in this thread? Just how blind are you to the situation?

 

Just a word to the wise :)


Edited by svines85, 03 October 2016 - 08:50 AM.

Tn7HA0h.png


#16
Master_Aricitic

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Good, f'ing, God people. I'm not making demands.

I don't care if any of you change.

 

I have merely been pointing out the hypocrisy of one person or group whining that some other individual steals their content when they are, quite literally, stealing the mangaka's content.

 

Oh, and the hypocrisy of those of you who give your blessings and demonize those who do the same...

 

 

Embarrassing myself? Hardly.

If I cared what others thought of my opinion I would post it here. I'm posting it freely to voice my concern.

 

And, to be honest, the most satisfying thing I can imagine right now is the publisher's proving my point for me. Will it happen? Probably not, but I can voice that opinion with the same expectation of consequence as any other here.

 

 

It's just ironic how some people think they are safe, when they take content from people with financial backing, and then get so irritated when someone with less backing takes from them.

End of story. I know I'm right, I don't care what anyone else thinks.



#17
Christine Guinn

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WOW!  Seriously?

This is like watching two toddlers fight over a toy, or perhaps a bank robber complaining to the police that he was mugged.

Where's my popcorn?

tumblr_ljh0puClWT1qfkt17.gif


Edited by Christine Guinn, 05 October 2016 - 12:47 PM.


#18
Master_Aricitic

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WOW!  Seriously?

This is like watching two toddlers fight over a toy, or perhaps a bank robber complaining to the police that he was mugged.

Where's my popcorn?

 

Just an FYI. I wasn't the one who uploaded it... And I'm effectively trying to point out the same thing you effectively said.

 

ALL I am saying is the 'proper translator/group' addition is ironic. Why should they expect, or get, the request if they never made the request themselves?

 

Certainly, I have no problem with fan translators or scanlators using the materials. It's merely ironic that they expect something they never got in the first place.

 

Translator (does not ask for permission) some random person uses the translation (does not ask for permission).

Tell me, what is the difference?

 

Tell me, is there even a rational argument that someone can present as to why what 'that person' (not Boku Boy, as I've now read all of Aereus' post) did by uploading the chapters is something worse  than the "unknown translator" they didn't get permission from.

"Unknown translator" didn't ask Sugito Akira, or Shueisha (the publisher) for permission to translate, upload, or host the translations. How is it so much worse for 'that person' to not ask for permission of someone who, quite literally, stole and violated copyright from the mangaka?

 

 

Literally, the ONLY think I am doing here is pointing this out. (ok, and bashing some of Bato.to's 'black box' methodology, but that's beside the point). - I do this, not for myself, I'm completely unaffected by this. Google (incidentally) pulls up seven different locations anyone can still read it. For all I even know the original uploader removed them themselves - but hasn't stated as such (the credits page literally said to "write them" and they will take them down) I'm doing this solely because I think the double standards is insulting.

 

As Christine Guinn said, It's like "a bank robber complaining to the police [they] were mugged"... I'm the bystander pointing out the irony.

 

I want to preface the following by stating: I have total respect for what Aereus does. I cannot do what they do. I don't mean this in: I don't have time, money, energy, etc... I mean I am literally incapable of translation. I tried to learn Japanese in high school and in college and, for two semesters, succeeded. In my third semester, I utterly failed. Given how absolutely I failed to learn Japanese (or French as per middle school and 9th grade) I sometimes find myself boggled at how well I have learned English given the Word <-> phrase/idea and the reverse work equally regardless of language of one side or the other.

I have profound respect for what Aersus and redrawers are able to do. Drawing is something I have wanted to do since I was seven, or younger... Yeah... that never happened.

 

The skills you have and the things you do with them are things I respect. Things, given most circumstances, I would honor... but because of the argument you and Bato.to are presenting I cannot do so now... not here and not given these circumstances.

 

By doing the following, regardless of whether people believe me or not, I mean no disrespect to Aereus.

 

 

It's not a matter of wanting my name on it or not. Do you honestly think I'm that petty? I dedicated 2 years of my free time weekly to doing these scripts and want to see it done right. I owe the author and you that much. [...]

I admire your respect for the mangaka. I do. There are a lot of bad translators out there who butcher the work and put text all over it. One such translation (group) merged their credits page at the beginning and end of the first and last page. I found the offensive and thought about requesting Bato.to remove them. I didn't, because I felt it was their right to have it uploaded... AND, someone with more sense and respect could come along and upload a different version - that they did...

Spoiler

The above is only modified to show responses directly to the quoted text (unfortunately there is a " number of quoted blocks of text" so only the first quote is in the beautifully done quote block.)

 

I do want to reiterate, this is not meant to be a personal attack. You are clearly a rational and intelligent person and put thought into not only your response to me/others but also what you do, how you do it and for what purpose. No, this is not an attack against you yourself, but against something you have said/done.

I have NOTHING against you just against your assertions over ownership. If this were not the case I would be defending you instead of some person whose avatar name I don't even know.

 

 

And... as a final aside, when are we going to start attacking people for using avatars that they didn't get permission for? I'm fairly sure that these upload websites have a terms of use...

Post.Script. Well, there goes another two hours of my day. Editing is a (insert word here).



#19
Aereus

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Update: Got in contact with BokuBoy and he's on board with updating the script with my corrections. He also said he had been applying what he learned in cleaning up the chapters to go back and improve the earlier ones.

I'll pass on corrections to BokuBoy and he'll then post 79+ up to where my LiveTL left off. I'll also be working with a few others on concurrently scanlating from there to the end (107).

I hadn't kept tabs on BnM recently, but at their pace this year, they would be unlikely to finish for several more years if ever. This will at least leave the series in good shape in either case.

PS: Native's Mizuki scale figure is still open for pre-orders until October 24th if anyone hadn't heard about it yet:
http://native-global.ecq.sc/top/nachwd00006.html
 

This entire argument was created because one person accused another person of stealing their work... Of using it without permission... The individual making that accusation didn't get permission either, yet you immediately removed the other person's uploads without question or a chance for the two to discuss. You silenced the community removing their right to communicate what happened or their views of it, because one individual cried foul of another individual doing the exact same thing to them as they had done to another.


PPS: I still can't believe people don't understand the situation that went on last week. I explained it very clearly multiple times. Here I shall explain it for like a 4th time:
TLDR: The translations are mine, the raws up to the Thai ones were provided to BokuBoy by me, and I had been in semi-regular correspondence with him giving cleaning tips even. Izaya is just some kid that saw a link in some comments online somewhere.
It was a clear-cut situation the entire time, unless by permission you mean from the manga-ka, in which case you're just being argumentative. BokuBoy only put them in an isolated Google drive for a reason.

Your argument seems to boil down to this: Since scanlators don't ask permission of the manga-ka, they should throw out all codes of ethics and established informal codes of behavior that the scanlation scene has used for close to 2 decades. Simply because one doesn't ask the author doesn't mean we can't still be responsible caretakers.

I go out of my way to promote the series I work on, farther than any other scanlation group I've seen. Rather than just some lip-service boilerplate about support, I'm always letting readers know when new volumes are about to release. I provide links on how they can buy it both via importing the print, or even just buying the digital edition to support the author. Even providing info on guides on how to navigate various sites. I bought a number of extra copies for a giveaway last year to readers. I also provide links to things like the author's Twitter or Pixiv to see what else they're working on and to leave words of encouragement or if there is somewhere people can Favorite/Like the series to give a bump for the author as well.

Unfortunately a far too large proportion of the readership seems to have no respect for the manga author, scanlation teams that give up their free time in this hobby, nor themselves as long as they can get their manga fix.

Edited by Aereus, 05 October 2016 - 09:30 AM.


#20
Master_Aricitic

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PPS: I still can't believe people don't understand the situation that went on last week. I explained it very clearly multiple times. Here I shall explain it for like a 4th time:
TLDR: The translations are mine, the raws up to the Thai ones were provided to BokuBoy by me, and I had been in semi-regular correspondence with him giving cleaning tips even. Izaya is just some kid that saw a link in some comments online somewhere.
It was a clear-cut situation the entire time, unless by permission you mean from the manga-ka, in which case you're just being argumentative. BokuBoy only put them in an isolated Google drive for a reason.

Ok, so, basically, you and Boku Boy were collaborating, privately, for personal research and experience... IF I read that correctly. And Izaya happened to find an errant link to your private works? Then, if I read that correctly, you are correct you no only did not need permissions to do this private translation, regardless of sharing with a typesetter (as that was never meant to go further), but Izaya was the only one who was in the wrong...

I did not know the situation - your comment on this was either deleted or lost in an avalanche of others... and deleted... OR, you posted it somewhere that none of us could be expected to find.

 

That is (mostly) my fault, and I apologize...

Spoiler

 

 

So. Ultimately, you are correct in your assessment. I do not understand. I cannot understand. As a content creator, both using other people's content and strictly my own, I am simply incapable of understanding how you can possibly think that you are excused from the crime you committed. Or how you have the right to demonize someone else for committing that very same crime against you (and another, Boku Boy). God, if all you were doing was pointing out what they did... I wouldn't even be here. Yes, you are right. They should have asked for permission. That they did not, makes their action a bad one. Your excuse seems to be some kind of intangible 'moral' or 'ethical' belief that you are above laws written to protect people and their intellectual property.

 

Ah, I still need to get what that play was called, who wrote it, and who got permission to translate - and ultimately be part of directing it. A prime example of why your 'morals' and 'ethics' have no place in an argument where you were wronged, but did not wrong. (and, for the love of God and all that is good, my argument is not against YOU or -most- scanlators, it is merely against your argument and how exasperated you are getting by people not caring that you have higher standards than others doing identical things. Your uploading of copyright materials is no more legal than their uploading of your material.)

I cannot emphasise this enough. The only reason I make this argument against you - and not all scanlators in general - is purely because of your behavior (which, I could very easily still be misunderstanding/misinterpreting), not because you translated, or uploaded someone else's works. I use the laws to push how you have no legitimate argument, no real moral ground to stand on, no concrete ethical system backing you. (or, if you would like to cite legal code allowing what you did, I'll delete my posts and replace them with written apologies to you, Bato.to and that moderator. - or write them by hand and mail them to any address asked to.)

 

Final statement, if I don't stop now, I'll go for another two hours. Hour of writing, half hour of research and half hour of editing...


Edited by Master_Aricitic, 06 October 2016 - 03:54 AM.