12 replies to this topic

[omnipotentcheese]

Often I see people try to give critical feedback in the comments section of a manga, or in other public forums. I would say most of what I see of that here on batoto is really well intentioned, and generally polite. High five for the awesome general population!

 

That having been said, I think that relatively few people in the world have been exposed to consistent high quality critique. It makes me sad to see the best of intentions turn into something hurtful or unproductive because of a few misplaced words. So here are some basic guidelines for good critical feedback I threw together.

 

 

Any time you criticise a persons work in a public setting, you make it very difficult for a human to respond to your critique in a non-emotional way. One of peoples higher level needs are the regard of their peers. (Check out maslow's hierarchy of needs, it's pretty cool.) Basically a person would feel the immediate need to 'defend' their work. Their intellect engages primarily in an effort to show that your critique is unfounded. If it is in a face to face setting, as opposed to a forum, it might actually engender fear and/or anger from the person on the receiving end.

 

Both of these emotions are seated in the hind-brain. The back part of your brain deals with fight or flight responses to stimuli. When fear and anger are stimulated, PET scans have shown that brain activity in the frontal lobe, the part of the brain which deals with higher cognitive function, significantly decreases. A person experiencing fear or anger, literally cannot think clearly. Thus the most even the most rational argument falls upon deaf ears.

 

So when making effective critique, a good first step is to think how you can make it as easy as possible for someone to actually hear what you are saying to them. There are a couple of easy techniques for this.

 

Obviously, not in public.

 

Lead with questions.

There is something less threatening about critical feedback posed in the form of a question.

 

Get permission.

Almost no one will appreciate or listen to unsolicited critique.

 

No pronouns.

The word's "you did this" will engender that feeling of being personally critiqued, instead of the work being critiqued. So talk about the work in specific ways, as if it was a separate entity. "I noticed on page three there was..."

 

Point out plenty of good stuff.

Excessively harping upon the flaws will cause people to do that defensive thing internally, even if they are outwardly trying very hard to listen.

 

If you offer a critique, offer a couple of suggestions.

"I noticed this, what do you think about this thing? Have you though about this?"

 

Do not negatively compare.

"You did this thing in this way, but you can clearly see Joe is better than you."

I think it is pretty self evident why this is absolutely detrimental.

 

 

These are some basic guidelines I follow for good critique.

[Yan Q]

Nice one, Stilton.

It's a hard one to implement, as most don't care enough to think their comments through that far. But constructive criticism or feedback is definitely something people should give, instead of just flat out criticism.

[svines85]

Yes, all good advice. A shame that it will mostly fall on deaf ears.

 

Much of what you're recommending falls under the most basic concepts of civility and good manners...........and yeah, those things have become less and less common as people (seemingly everywhere, though it's by far most evident in online settings) have become progressively more self-centered and egocentric.

 

Considering other people's feelings and being able to initiate a conversation with them, without causing offence, kind of turns into a shot in the dark when you (subconsciously or otherwise) think the world revolves around you and that there's absolutely nothing wrong with acting that way.  >_<

[Socrates]

You should also probably do the sandwich method. Open with positive remarks, followed by issues or critiques, and close with positive remarks

[omnipotentcheese]

You should also probably do the sandwich method. Open with positive remarks, followed by issues or critiques, and close with positive remarks.

 

Personally speaking, I have always found the complement sandwich mildly insulting and annoying. 

In my head I am thinking: "I know what you are doing right now. Please just get to the point so I can get back to work."

 

I have always encountered it in the context of some supervisor trying to provide constructive feedback, but this being the ONLY tool in their toolbox.

 

You should also know your audience. I really appreciate constructive feedback, and have gotten a lot of practice getting it in various shapes and forms. I like it when people just tell me:
What: "This is the thing."
How: "This is the right way"

(and most especially)
Why: "The reason is this."

The reason I learned all this stuff, is because when I gave people the kind of critique I liked to get, it was counter productive and hurt feelings. So I started to think about how I could actually achieve my goal of helping to make things better.

On the internet, you most likely do not know your audience. So following some basic guidelines is super helpful.

Yes, all good advice. A shame that it will mostly fall on deaf ears.

 

Much of what you're recommending falls under the most basic concepts of civility and good manners...........and yeah, those things have become less and less common as people (seemingly everywhere, though it's by far most evident in online settings) have become progressively more self-centered and egocentric.

 

Considering other people's feelings and being able to initiate a conversation with them, without causing offence, kind of turns into a shot in the dark when you (subconsciously or otherwise) think the world revolves around you and that there's absolutely nothing wrong with acting that way.  >_<

 

 

Maybe mostly.

I actually have a lot of faith in the good intentions of humans. I think a lot of us are just awkward about how we express those good intentions.

If one person reads this, and pauses to consider it only for a moment, something of it might stick. A post wont change the world, but it might be one of many encounters that eventually causes someone to seriously reconsider a preconception. Little steps add up. I don't mind only being a pebble in the stream bed.

Nice one, Stilton.

It's a hard one to implement, as most don't care enough to think their comments through that far. But constructive criticism or feedback is definitely something people should give, instead of just flat out criticism.

 

Totally true. Realising there is a different way is the first and most important step.

After that, it's just a matter of paying attention to your own behaviour and changing your habits. I say "just", but that can be a tough nut to crack!

[svines85]

 

I actually have a lot of faith in the good intentions of humans. 

 

Ah, the eternal optimist  

[cmertb]

On the flip side, I feel many people have become overly sensitive. I'm not talking about any kind of criticism, even simply disagreeing with their opinion causes offense at a personal level.

 

To be honest, if people feel offended by something that wouldn't offend me (and the convo always starts civil before going downhill), I feel so annoyed that I don't even try to hide my disdain. Which naturally offends them even more.

 

On the one hand, it causes me to end up in too many usless flame wars. On the other, would I want to have a constructive dialogue with someone who'd require me to tip toe around their fragile ego to begin with?

 

EDIT: I'm talking about the internetz, of course. In RL, where you have to deal with certain people whether you want to or not, it's different.

Edited by cmertb, 29 May 2015 - 08:25 PM.

[omnipotentcheese]

Ah, the eternal optimist  

 

Not entirely accurate. I am a realist at heart.

I believe in the things I observe in reality.

In my experience, I have seen that people are fundamentally good at heart.

Thus, this is what I believe.
 

 

On the flip side, I feel many people have become overly sensitive. I'm not talking about any kind of criticism, even simply disagreeing with their opinion causes offense at a personal level.

 

To be honest, if people feel offended by something that wouldn't offend me (and the convo always starts civil before going downhill), I feel so annoyed that I don't even try to hide my disdain. Which naturally offends them even more.

 

On the one hand, it causes me to end up in too many usless flame wars. On the other, would I want to have a constructive dialogue with someone who'd require me to tip toe around their fragile ego to begin with?

 

EDIT: I'm talking about the internetz, of course. In RL, where you have to deal with certain people whether you want to or not, it's different.

 

 

Lol. I see how you could think that. A lot of people do.

 

I made the implicit assertion that people are, by nature, emotionally sensitive.

So in response to your comment, I would reply that this is not something that is new, or changed. People ARE really sensitive to criticism. In a big way. Lol. That is the whole point of my post. The trick is not to expect people to somehow suddenly not be sensitive, cause let's face it, that is definitely not going to happen. The trick is how to not make people FEEL attacked. Cause that is a thing that may actually be possible. 

[cmertb]

I specifically expanded the scope beyond criticism. I'm saying people get upset over any disagreement, not just criticism of them.

 

You might be right that it's not something new. It might seem new to me not because people changed, but because my interests changed, and while online I have to deal with the type of people I didn't have to deal with before.

 

...

 

I'm realzing that basically by hobbies have become less intellectual.

[omnipotentcheese]

I specifically expanded the scope beyond criticism. I'm saying people get upset over any disagreement, not just criticism of them.

 

You might be right that it's not something new. It might seem new to me not because people changed, but because my interests changed, and while online I have to deal with the type of people I didn't have to deal with before.

 

...

 

I'm realzing that basically by hobbies have become less intellectual.

Good reply.

[DemonHide]

Right on, bud.

 

Another thing about online critique is the sheer mass of of it. Take something to a friend and there's time to sit down and soak it up - It's greatly appreciated, generally. When there's thousands of random names pining for one's fucks to be given to their words, poor etiquette fills up the bullshit meter and tops it off permanently, it seems. In person, let's say it's 5 positives to 1 negative to keep things square. Online, I feel like even an absurdly high ratio of 1000 to 1 respectively isn't enough. It's a tough call.

 

But, good form is far from infectious. I'm looking at rating systems like YouTube and checking out the like/dislike system. There's very simple, bare-bones and balls-easy feedback with a click, and that same system is applied to comments so that the main ones you see are "the best that speak for the rest" reasonably well. As a content creator, the job then becomes factoring in average error and adjusting your content to fit within that probable slope of acceptance. That works for generating consumption. I guess the core issue remains unresolved, those "rest" who are not as eloquent and are difficult to ignore.

Edited by DemonHide, 13 June 2015 - 10:29 AM.

[Yaomo]

when giving criticism, it would also be smart to consider the other person's standpoint first.

 

there's this scanlator who for a while near mass produced low quality scanlations.

when people complained that the quality was so low they couldn't read it,guess what they got in return?

a slogan!

"a crisp perfect scan is wrong"

 

particularly when it comes to scanlation and fan translation, it's important to remember that some people do this because they want to, rather than in order to get some reward from it. there will be people who aren't interested in criticism at all. and then there are some who will read suggestions and at least consider them.

pointing out minor mistakes only works with those who seek perfection.

 

if you have serious issues with the amount of spelling mistakes, quirky grammar, less than perfect editing, or other issue with a series,

the best choice will often be to ask the scanlator if they want another editor or proofreader.

[sjoe]

[...] some basic guidelines I follow for good critique.

Wow, great post! Makes me realise I've been unconsciously following these guidelines. I also reread everything I post (or even mails I send to real life people) at least three times, to see if I've indeed conveyed my message correctly and if the other party will take it well. In my limited experience of being on the internet, I haven't managed to offend anyone while giving any form of (constructive) feedback, though I do hear a lot about these things happening.
 

In my experience, I have seen that people are fundamentally good at heart.
Thus, this is what I believe.

You, sir, have won a follower. I love this attitude and I've always felt the same way too.

 

Just dropping by to say that I really enjoyed reading all this. Bye.