59 replies to this topic

[truepurple]

Truepurple:
'We wouldn't want the OP character to suddenly get weaker' Well it is true that it's not good for a comic to be inconsistent with itself, but Rain is a annoying character. He's all powerful, knows just what to do,  yata yata and of course stuff centers around him.  The little modesty he has shown comes off as false, more like being not so secretly super arrogant. It brings down the manga, and would be worth a bit of inconsistency to address. Well I don't really find much of the rest of this that promising anyway.

 

cookieness:
so you want him to go full righteous like hero from maouyuu or be full anti-hero like alucard from hellsing? well i think he's a decent mix of both and is a welcome change.

You must be responding to someone else since I never said that, or anything like that.
 

he's quirky when the mood is light but gets really serious when he needs to. i especially like how he threatens other leaders of state like reygul and joe's queen (whose name i can't remember at the moment) whenever they go out of line especially when it involves shelfa.
i really much prefer him than most shounen MCs who seem all powerful at the end of every arc with his/her shiny new equipment or skill or ability or powerup but then seem weak and helpless at the start of the next arc. then add in the fact that most of them are only physically strong or have some power within themselves that they didnt work for. when push comes to shove, they will get thru the crisis due to their nakama, love, and friendship while holding hands and singing kumbaya. you read each arc and you notice the same formula being used over and over.

 

Let's compare the two mangas you mentioned. I think I know which one you mean by mauyu, the one where everyones name is their position and demographic? "Young merchant" "Mage" "Female knight" "Demon queen" etc. While Hero is indeed a powerful central character, the comic by no means revolves around him only. It treats many characters as important and shares the spotlight between them. 

 

Hellsing, well I don't particularly like Hellsing in general, but Alucard is not central in it. In fact, Alucard is not so much a antihero as a tool for his master(who's family name is the title of the comic). Alucard believes in humanity a great deal, is jealous of humanity even. This belief has caused him to put all his faith and decision for his action in the hands of his human female master, made himself only a tool for his master.  Alucard is in a sense, very humbled by the greatness of humanity. 

 

Both characters are humble and share the story with other characters.

 

Rain feels like he is the story, everyone and everything, including the princess/queen, revolves around him and he knows it. He knows exactly what do do at all times in Rain world and can do it with unbeatable power. When asked he puts on a false show of humility but most of the time is arrogantly rubbing in our faces that he is awesome in all regards and the whole damn world revolves around him. It fits that the comics name is his name and he's shown center of the cover, the other characters in the story might as well not exist.  Nothing to do with hero or antihero, not sure how you got that idea.

 

This type of character would not be remotely tolerated by some people if female. If Rain was a women we'd have asshats grumbling about "Mary sue" or whatever. 

 

For proof, check out the threads posted for this comic where a female approaches a small portion of Rains power and center of worldness. http://vatoto.com/comic/_/comics/witch-craft-works-r46 Especially the pissed thread.

 

Then compare the male protagonist in witchcraft works, with the princess/queen in Rain.  Despite her important position and hidden power, she is not much but a fangirl of Rain, drooling over him and counting on him for everything like a past and future helpless damsel in distress. She's pathetically meek and wears absurdly skimpy clothes sometimes.  Whatever you might not like about the male protagonist in whichcraft, she's ten times worse, especially since she is suppose to be a ruler. Well she can always marry Rain when she gets old enough via time lapse that the censors won't object, and be his trophy wife as he rules wisely and greatly, the planet of Rain ; that is, if the comic Rain dared go against the stream and have a relationship progress ; also required would be a character in Rain, that isn't Rain.

 

There is no holding hands and singing Kumbya in Rain, because there is no one else in Rain world besides Rain, that matters, and it's kinda silly to do something like that with yourself. "Rain believes in friendship of himself, he is his own best friend, and that friendship will win the day!"

Edited by truepurple, 23 June 2014 - 09:55 PM.

[Nekohunter]

cool story brah

[Lock]

I don't like Rain, he always felt kind of bland to me.

[theSpecialist]

you bad purple? its okay to be mad. you can always read another manga, which i am sure will smooth your mind.

[kendama]

I agree with theSpecialist. Normally, going out of one's way to criticise a series negatively serves no purpose. I happen to know - having stumbled upon this kind of thread before - that Truepurple has a habit of writing his assessments - positive and otherwise - on aspects of manga he reads. So no surprise there: he has also criticised a series I translate.

 

However, just this time, I'll jump on his boat, break my rule of not berating series (after all, it tends to annoy fans and helps no one) and offer my full, undivided agreement. Rain is just about the most annoying overpowered character I have ever had the misfortune of meeting.

 

(By the way, this is not the comment section, but a thread, and its title, if ungrammatical, leaves no room to double meaning: if you have entered this thread, you must be prepared to find people deriding/berating the protagonist. If you get annoyed by this, you have no one to blame but yourself. Nobody forced you to read.)

 

When I started reading this series, I was thrilled. It was my first manga in a medieval fantasy setting and I tend to like strong heroes. At a certain point, when scanlations were stalled, I even translated a couple of chapters for myself.

 

But that did not last long. Rain's invincibility gets tedious and irritating very quickly. I stopped reading after the defeat of the rebels. That was enough of Rain's superlativeness. More than I can handle, anyway.

 

However, instead of going Truepurple's route and analysing the character - after all, he did it pretty thoroughly - I'll ask myself: why?

 

Why is Rain annoying (to me, at least) when so many other overpowered characters are cool?

 

While the classification of "overpowered" is flexible, my very favourite character ever could easily fit it: Suzaku Kururugi of Code: Geass. I also like Oga Tatsumi, Spike Spiegel and more recently Eun Aran. Heck, even Rin Okumura is more tolerable than Rain. All of them are much stronger than pretty much everyone else around. Intelectually, Shin'ichi Akiyama is also overpowered, by the way, and I really like him. Zwei of Phantom, too.

 

So these are some ways I think overpowered characters can be made interesting:

 

i. Make power an inconvenience: Suzaku is pretty much invincible (even Kallen is hardly a match for him most of the time), but he has a death wish, so he cannot die simply because there is no one strong enough to defeat him, and Lelouch later puts a Geass forcing him to live. The irony is so brilliant that he is so far unsurpassed in my list.

 

ii. Not being the brightest bulb in the box: if the overpowered protagonist is idiotic, it can be annoying, too, but that's not necessary. Just make him defer strategy to someone else, so brains and brawn are in different bodies. Oga Tatsumi is a great example: he is not (very) stupid, but he uses Furuichi and Himekawa for strategy. But Rain is also a brilliant strategist, so everyone else is reduced to a modest side-show next to him.

 

iii. Just defeat him, even if only once. Make him human. It is very interesting to see an overpowered character cope with utter defeat. Rain's flashback doesn't count, since he became overpowered afterwards. I cheered whenever Oga was defeated, because we were treated to the hilarious, surrealistic mind-trials that followed when he was sulking.

 

iv. Give him a counterpart, damn it! Before I dropped this series, I kept my fingers crossed that someone would appear to wipe that smug smile off Rain's face. And I don't mean King Leighur, since he appears so little that he cannot really be a foil to Rain's one-man show. I mean someone like Yokoya to Akiyama, a constant threat. When it became clear no one was coming to fit the description (the person or entity trying to kill princess whatever-her-name-is also doesn't count, because he is nowhere to be seen).

 

v. Make the story about coping with the power. The Tale of Eun Aran is interesting in this respect. Although only six chapters have been released so far, it's clear that being overpowered is not going to make the protagonist's life easier, much on the contrary. That's quite interesting.

 

vi. Do it for the laughs, exclusively. The titular protagonist of The psychic disaster of Saiki Kusuo is essentially god, but his deadpan expression and the uninterrupted series of troubles that accrue from his condition make the series very enjoyable indeed.

 

vii. Make his life miserable in spite of the power. I hear that's what happens in Beserk, although I have never read it and don't want to. However, that's Zwei's fate, and adds to the emotional content of Phantom beautifully.

 

I know people will say that the princess is probably the real overpowered one, and that the story is probably about Rain helping her be prepared to take king Leighur on, blah blah blah. It doesn't cut it. If 90% of the time (and the series), Rain is the dominant figure, the series won't be redeemed by the remaining 10%.

 

And before you tell me to go read something else, may I remind you that I have been doing that already, and for quite a few months haven't wasted my precious time on this Earth reading about super Rain and the useless ciphers around him. And I wanted to write this comment, so it's pointless to tell me I'm wasting my time with it, as it satisfies a wish.

 

In the end, of course, it is a matter of taste. If you like this series, this won't change no matter what you read. If Rain's behaviour persists, you may be more resilient and put up with it further than I did (maybe even to the end, if you are just of the kind who likes one-man shows). I am sure that there are things you hate about the series I've listed. In the end, I have just written this because I wanted to use the opportunity to dissect overpowered characters to my satisfaction.

 

Now this is done, I'll leave and not bother readers anymore. I hope you enjoy Rain, because I couldn't. I'll check this thread occasionally, so if somebody does wipe off his smug smile (or even better, defeats him fair and square, best of all if said person is not an enemy/villain), drop a note here, I might want to check it out.

 

I feel a little guilty. In the past I used the rule - and still mostly abide by it - that if you don't have anything positive to say about a series, just shut up and let the fans enjoy the experience. Consider this an escapade. I'll understand if you want to retaliate by bashing a manga I like. However, I am confident that no one would stoop as low as I have here.

[Fjolsvinnr]

This attitude is exactly why Japanese anime/manga culture is filled with annoyingly whiny/emo main characters. Somehow, some little punk is considered "special" and "sensitive" and everyone either loves and admires him for absolutely no reason or spends the entire time admonishing him for being a whiny little brat. Not to mention that such characters always hung up over a false non-dilemmas and even falser sense of "determination" to get over said non-dilemmas. All this just to pretend that they're writing some sort of "deep growth" or "character development" or to avoid lame labels like "bland" or "flat. Frankly, little powerless, indecisive sissies are the cancers that destroy any half-decent story.

 

Rain is exactly the type of hero that should dominate all media. Over powered. Almost if not always right about everything. Complete and total, untouchable awesome. When I read about a main character, I want to be able to say myself "damn, I wish I were even a tenth as bad ass as this protagonist". Story protagonists should be those that make us want to be them, not make us want to slap them upside the head for being a spineless piece of trash.

 

Now, mind you, I'm not saying that there isn't a place for stories with said whiny little emo trash. I'm sure plenty of people enjoy them.

 

But there isn't damn near enough characters like Rain who can make me feel like I'm cheering for someone worth being proud of. The world cannot have enough unabashed awesome. It does, however, at this time have too much unabashed whining. Thank God Rain is around.

[kendama]

As I said, it is a matter of taste. But may I point out that the opposition you established doesn't really exist. I for one don't like sentimental heroes much, either. But one can be overpowered, make us want to be like them, and still be enjoyable as a character, you know. I pointed out seven ways I think overpowered characters can be interesting, and no one involves being sentimental or indecisive. Even these can be good if done correctly, although I grant that it is difficult.

 

Would you call Shinya Kogami "bland"? Granted, he is not overpowered, but he is much stronger than the other investigators in Psycho-pass, and a philosopher to boot. I really cheered the man, and I wouldn't mind being one tenth as awesome as he is.

 

But Rain… frankly, if I were like him, I'd either want to conquer Murgenia for myself instead of leaving it to the other idiots, or just leave the place altogether to enjoy my awesomeness elsewhere. Whenever I see him I cannot help rolling up my eyes in disgust.

 

Oh, well, your taste and my taste, I guess.

Edited by kendama, 19 July 2014 - 02:21 PM.

[Static Transit]

My opinion on the matter is similar to Fjolsvinnr's. I hate series that focus on unlikable main characters. When I see a main character do something dumb that makes me want to slap them upside the head, I cringe. I don't like cringing.

 

What I DO like is main characters like Rain. Even main characters like Gintoki who'll occasionally do something dumb I like, because usually when he does, it's just played for laughs (and Gintama is primarily a comedy manga anyway). Characters like Shiba Tatsuya are also awesome. I love seeing a main character that ISN'T an unlikable dumbass. One of the character types I actually hate the most are the hot-headed ones that go do something dumb all the time, and all the other characters keep pointing out how dumb he is.

 

Of course, even Rain has got nothing on Kasuga Arata. Arata will always be the king of main characters, on top of being the Supreme Harem Overlord.

[lhff]

My main gripe is that, apparently, no one is as cool or special or powerful as Rain. Sure, he can be cool and special and powerful, and make good decisions -- I like that, I don't like the fact that he's the only one on that level. I want someone that's actually on par with him (didn't read Vampire Lady's side-story, can't judge her yet), someone that can match him. It doesn't even need to be a rival or enemy, just someone that Rain's equal, and hopefully not in an "I'm your unbeatable master" way.

 

We've had characters introduced that were potentially Rain's equals, but no, in the end, he's still the most powerful and the smartest one around, which makes him boring. I definitely liked Joe and the other empress (forgot her name) more than Rain in just about every aspect (personality, design, backstory), and I had high hopes that Joe would actually be on par with Rain. But, of course, it's Rain we're talking about, and nobody in this manga can be better than him.

Edited by lhff, 20 July 2014 - 09:07 PM.

[truepurple]

Exactly, I am all for cool professional and skilled, as long as they aren't the only ones. This counts for villains as well as heroes, and even neutrals. Actually the OP villain where no one is close to their level is relatively common compared to a OP protagonist I think, which is wrote off as "tragedy" genre (well that is a huge catch all category though)
 
About attitude and personality. I see here too a usual vocal critique opinion that heroic angst is nothing but evil (the most vocal kind aside from me, sometimes I think I only criticize to counter these guys).  You guys seem to think that if a hero spends time fretting about how they accidentally hurt others etc., then that is the ultimate in MC failing. To these people, I am sure Rain is the perfect hero, he never questions any of his decisions, because he knows he always makes the right ones and has the power to back them up. This arrogance makes Rain being the only one on his extremely high level many times more annoying, and on the flip side, if Rain could show some real humbleness, it would work alot better for me.  But they can't do that now anyway, they already established that Rains strongest attribute is his belief in himself, changing that would be too big a shock and leave them without a fanbase.  Powerful and humble, ok, arrogant but constantly proven wrong, funny and satisfying to see them fail. Then there is Rain.

 

To give an example where attitude makes all the difference with one OP character where no one else is close to their level, One punch man. He's humble enough, considerate, has some character flaws, (though nothing big)  and his weakness of getting lost easily, being oblivious, and willingness to let others handle the situation if they can, means he gets out of others way enough to not be the only character. The contrast of his extreme power, and how he keeps extremely humble by comparison and considerate of others, makes a vast difference in the quality of the read.

 

Well, you guys of that clique I mentioned earlier, there is no definite definition of "Cool" and obsessing over that concept shows a definite immaturity.
 

Fjolsvinnr: When I read about a main character, I want to be able to say myself "damn, I wish I were even a tenth as bad ass as this protagonist". Story protagonists should be those that make us want to be them, not make us want to slap them upside the head for being a spineless piece of trash.

 

Here is the key point, you guys seem to fantasize about being worshipped, (in the end, the concept of cool is all about popularity only)  I fantasize about helping others, about becoming better then I am.  It also seems like your sort sees compassion and empathy as weakness.  IMO, anyone with that kind of thinking would make for a horrible super hero, and I would hope you would never get super powers.

 

Aside from this, writing a story for cool, invariable makes for a more 2 dimensional story then writing one with a compassionate and empathetic but still humanly flawed character, who's strengths don't just overwhelm everyone, that has to struggle.

 

P.S.

Kendama, I have read Berserk, all of it till it stopped releasing new chapters.  He's definitely not the only powerful person out there, and his main foes (of which they normally don't entangle with him, considering him beneath their effort) vastly OP him. It's them that have cursed him, and their actions in the world that give the MC in Berserk no end of troubles (they didn't give him his power though, he was already strong, he doesn't suffer because he is strong, he is strong because he suffers)

Edited by truepurple, 20 July 2014 - 07:18 AM.

[Fjolsvinnr]

Exactly, I am all for cool professional and skilled, as long as they aren't the only ones. This counts for villains as well as heroes, and even neutrals. Actually the OP villain where no one is close to their level is relatively common compared to a OP protagonist I think, which is wrote off as "tragedy" genre (well that is a huge catch all category though)
 
About attitude and personality. I see here too a usual vocal critique opinion that heroic angst is nothing but evil (the most vocal kind aside from me, sometimes I think I only criticize to counter these guys).  You guys seem to think that if a hero spends time fretting about how they accidentally hurt others etc., then that is the ultimate in MC failing. To these people, I am sure Rain is the perfect hero, he never questions any of his decisions, because he knows he always makes the right ones and has the power to back them up. This arrogance makes Rain being the only one on his extremely high level many times more annoying, and on the flip side, if Rain could show some real humbleness, it would work alot better for me.  But they can't do that now anyway, they already established that Rains strongest attribute is his belief in himself, changing that would be too big a shock and leave them without a fanbase.  Powerful and humble, ok, arrogant but constantly proven wrong, funny and satisfying to see them fail. Then there is Rain.

 

To give an example where attitude makes all the difference with one OP character where no one else is close to their level, One punch man. He's humble enough, considerate, has some character flaws, (though nothing big)  and his weakness of getting lost easily, being oblivious, and willingness to let others handle the situation if they can, means he gets out of others way enough to not be the only character. The contrast of his extreme power, and how he keeps extremely humble by comparison and considerate of others, makes a vast difference in the quality of the read.

 

Well, you guys of that clique I mentioned earlier, there is no definite definition of "Cool" and obsessing over that concept shows a definite immaturity.
 

 

Here is the key point, you guys seem to fantasize about being worshipped, (in the end, the concept of cool is all about popularity only)  I fantasize about helping others, about becoming better then I am.  It also seems like your sort sees compassion and empathy as weakness.  IMO, anyone with that kind of thinking would make for a horrible super hero, and I would hope you would never get super powers.

 

Aside from this, writing a story for cool, invariable makes for a more 2 dimensional story then writing one with a compassionate and empathetic but still humanly flawed character, who's strengths don't just overwhelm everyone, that has to struggle.

 

P.S.

Kendama, I have read Berserk, all of it till it stopped releasing new chapters.  He's definitely not the only powerful person out there, and his main foes (of which they normally don't entangle with him, considering him beneath their effort) vastly OP him. It's them that have cursed him, and their actions in the world that give the MC in Berserk no end of troubles (they didn't give him his power though, he was already strong, he doesn't suffer because he is strong, he is strong because he suffers)

 

 

 

Firstly, yes, Hero Angst is the greatest evil in fiction. Especially because the angst is always superficial and unbelievable. I mean, come on. An antagonist destroys your entire family and the protagonist should agonize over whether he has the right to take revenge? Or a foreign country is curbstomping your soil and you should agonize over the morality of killing enemy soldiers? Among the biggest problems with angst is that it completely paralyzes the MC for the ENTIRE freaking story, all the while countless people suffer WAITING for him to resolve his BS inner conflict so he can get off his ass to save the day or to magically convince the evildoer to lay down his arms with his superior morality. It's beyond insane and stupid. Rain has the good sense to see wrong and strike it down. In fact, he probably doesn't do it enough for me, as there were at least a few opportunities where he had the power to resolve situations but decided against it for relatively thin reasons. Still, Rain is a cut above the rest of the field in this regard.

 

Secondly, I'm not against empathy and compassion at all. Those are true heroic and manly features ... as long as they don't keep you from doing what you have to do. I like a protagonist that's nice to the characters around him, who looks out for their feelings and happiness. What I don't like are whiny little sissies who show that same kindness to everyone - including their enemies. If you're a good person, you deserve kindness. If you're a bad person, you deserve to be destroyed without reserve. That's the morality I want my MC's to abide by. Not some nonsensical love everyone in the world equally kumbaya.

 

That said, I don't know what manga you're reading but Rain is an amazingly nice guy. Sure, he likes to pound his chest about how great he is but if you don't get why he acts that way (and it isn't narcissism like you seem to be implying) then you either haven't read very much of his backstory or are incredibly tonedeaf. Also, in pretty much every story arc so far, he's always looking out for the people around him, always very keenly aware of when they're distressed and what they need to make them happy. I don't know what kind of "compassion" story or "kindness" story you're looking for, but I honestly don't know many MC's who are as good a dude as Rain. Frankly, I don't know what you're looking for at all if you don't like Rain as a person.

Also, yes, the world that Rain exists in has many god-like, elite existences like him. They've already shown up several times. The main antagonist is one of them. They may not be able to defeat Rain but they're definitely on his level, so I'm not sure what yall are fussing about on that front. It's definitely not a world where there's Rain and the rest are ants being stepped on. I'm amazed to hear this criticism as if yall haven't even read any of this stuff.

And the fact that you quote One-Punch man as a contrast to the "flatness" of Rain really makes me scratch my head. One Punch man has a couple few and far between moments where he shows that he has some intentionality in his actions and that he's a nice guy, but most of them time he's one of the most underdeveloped and empty protagonists there is out there. And heck, I enjoy that guy and reading his stories ... but I have no clue how you could make such a comparison between the two. I can't see any sense in what you're saying whatsoever other than some strange bias against characters that pound their chest (even though you've clearly misread Rain on that part).

Edited by Fjolsvinnr, 21 July 2014 - 05:37 AM.

[lhff]

[snip]

 

Also, yes, the world that Rain exists in has many god-like, elite existences like him. They've already shown up several times. The main antagonist is one of them. They may not be able to defeat Rain but they're definitely on his level, so I'm not sure what yall are fussing about on that front. It's definitely not a world where there's Rain and the rest are ants being stepped on. I'm amazed to hear this criticism as if yall haven't even read any of this stuff.

 

[snip]

I agree with you on the first snipped part, so there's nothing for me to comment on there. Personally, narcissistic characters, whether acting or not and whether they're nice or not, get on my nerves, so there's bias against Rain there.

 

I disagree, though, that there are "many" like him. At the very least, we've only seen probably one or two (again, haven't read Vampire's side-story) characters on his level in all aspects. Judging from the main antagonist's banter at the ball, Joe isn't at Rain's level in power, and he was hyped up to be among Rain's serious competitors. He was also outwitted by Rain, so he's not exactly on par with Rain in that aspect, either. That young girl on Joe's side (I seriously can't remember names of the characters in this series aside form Rain, Shelfa, and Joe for whatever reason) had interesting potential -- didn't her magic break through Rain's anti-magic shield or something? -- but for logical reasons, her naivete and inexperience made her weaker than Rain.

 

None of the characters that have fought against Rain or were shown fighting him in the past have beaten him. The antagonist overpowered him at that one point, but Rain still got the last laugh by getting his sword (if I remember correctly) and the princess back (via the magical pendant, which I will admit was weird but better than a damsel-in-distress situation). He won against Joe, and hasn't lost a battle since that aforementioned time against antagonist. While it might be because Rain's the hero of this story, having him turn out on top every time has become boring.

[Fjolsvinnr]

I agree with you on the first snipped part, so there's nothing for me to comment on there. Personally, narcissistic characters, whether acting or not and whether they're nice or not, get on my nerves, so there's bias against Rain there.

 

I disagree, though, that there are "many" like him. At the very least, we've only seen probably one or two (again, haven't read Vampire's side-story) characters on his level in all aspects. Judging from the main antagonist's banter at the ball, Joe isn't at Rain's level in power, and he was hyped up to be among Rain's serious competitors. He was also outwitted by Rain, so he's not exactly on par with Rain in that aspect, either. That young girl on Joe's side (I seriously can't remember names of the characters in this series aside form Rain, Shelfa, and Joe for whatever reason) had interesting potential -- didn't her magic break through Rain's anti-magic shield or something? -- but for logical reasons, her naivete and inexperience made her weaker than Rain.

 

None of the characters that have fought against Rain or were shown fighting him in the past have beaten him. The antagonist overpowered him at that one point, but Rain still got the last laugh by getting his sword (if I remember correctly) and the princess back (via the magical pendant, which I will admit was weird but better than a damsel-in-distress situation). He won against Joe, and hasn't lost a battle since that aforementioned time against antagonist. While it might be because Rain's the hero of this story, having him turn out on top every time has become boring.

 

 

If your criteria for interesting is someone who beats Rain, then yes, no one like that has shown up. There are a whole bunch in his league, in the same general ball park, but none so far can beat him. And I like it that way. No protagonist in this sort of story should lose. If I wanted to watch MCs suffer and struggle, I would read war tragedy/dramas instead, where the protagonist is just a tiny grain of sand being tossed around by history. I enjoy those stories too, but only in the sense that it's a poignant look into a terrible time and place in history (or fictional history). Stories with actual "heroes" that "drive" stories should always remain unbeatable in my book. I immensely enjoy the fact that Rain outsmarts and outpowers everyone he meets.

 

Also, I recommend reading the vampire gaiden. It'll at least in part explain why his narcissistic charade is perhaps thoughtful and tragic. Though, I don't know why anyone has a problem with his narcissism to begin with because it's so blatantly benign and playful. It's not like he's being "douchey" or meanspirited to anyone on account of it. Anyway, Vampire Gaiden Rain is more reserved and somber, and if you want a story where he isn't the most powerful creature on earth then this is definitely more your speed. Because he clearly isn't top dog here. Also, you'll understand why everyone is so excited to see Sylvia.

[kendama]

Well, I think you're on to something when you said "if you're good, you deserve a good treatment, if you're bad you must be destroyed without reserve". (Not verbatim, I'm quoting from memory.)

 

Maybe Rain is just appropriate for a manga in which everyone is either good or bad, nothing in between. (Nothing of importance, anyway.)

 

This is something that really irritates me in this manga, too, come to think of it. I find black & white worlds boring. If Rain can just rampage and everyone he kills deserves to be killed, and everyone he spares deserves to be spared, then he is flawless... which is just as boring, in my opinion.

 

For example, let's say Leighur were every bit as intent on conquering the entire continent and crushing his enemies' armies, but on the other hand were an excellent administrator, and beloved by the citizens. Let's say his kingdom were the most prosperous, the agricultural techniques the most refined, roaring trade etc etc. Let's say some denizen of a region recently conquered by him told Rain: "Why are you so intent on protecting that useless girl when the new king is much better than the idiot who ruled us before?" (And Sunkvoll's previous king, by all accounts, was just such an idiot.)

 

Because you know, in a medieval setting people don't normally have a national identity, and if the whole continent shares the same language and culture, Leighur reigning over it would be just as well. And if all he wants to stop the war is to be a dragon slayer, just tie Rain up and offer him in a silver plate to the king.

 

I'd like that. It adds diversity. Because since Rain runs this show, I don't see any reason why he should help that girl, whatever her name is. No one is interesting enough for me to support them.

 

No mistakes of judgement, no serious adversaries ('cause up to the point I stopped, it just seemed to me the author was trying hard to make his opponents credible, and wasn't very successful, because it was clear Rain would win the moment every fight started), what's there to generate tension? If I always know he is going to win, and if I always know how the fight will end in humiliating defeat for the adversary (because fighting Rain is pretty much tantamount to suicide, unless you are a "good guy", when he will just show you how awesome and magnanimous he is, make you recognise your folly in fighting him in the first place, and thankful for being spared. Oh, and maybe give you a lesson on fighting.), what's to make me look forward to it?

 

When Shinya Kogami fought Shogo Makishima, I was on the edge of the chair, because I didn't know what to expect.

 

When Shin'ichi Akiyama devised a strategy to beat Yokoya in the musical chairs game, I was breathless up to the last moment.

 

When Furuichi intervened in the raid of the Pillar Squad Headquarters to help Oga with strategy, I punched the air in joy.

 

But when Leighur appeared... I yawned. "Hmmm, he may injure Rain a little, and since it's early in the story, it won't be decided now, but Rain will come out on top, and drop a killer line in the end." And lo and behold, that happened!

 

And when that little girl and his brother managed to slash him once by using a silly ruse, I was actually angry. So no one can lay a scratch on Rain unless they are lucky!?? Are you kidding!??

 

It's not about angst, or morals, or even power levels. It's about predictability. Even Rain's war strategy, while clever, doesn't make me thrilled, because I know from the beginning that it's going to work. No surprises, and if there are any, Rain will just fly to the spot on that horse and sort it out with a few slashes of his sword.

 

Even when I feel "I wanted to be like this protagonist", I need tension, because that makes me think "Okay, if I were the protagonist, what would I do here?" Uncertainty is essential for me to like a plot.

 

You are right, in the end. No protagonist in this sort of story should lose. Then again, this sort of story doesn't interest me.

 

I guess taste rules all, it's as simple as that.

[bietchie10]

Oh wow, some kid just got jelly with a fictional character.

[I love sleeping]

OP characters depends entirely on execution.

Imo rain is indeed bland and the other characters are there just to make him look better.

 

 

Then you have OP charas like saitama that are made out of pure awesomeness.

[Fjolsvinnr]

OP characters depends entirely on execution.

Imo rain is indeed bland and the other characters are there just to make him look better.

 

 

Then you have OP charas like saitama that are made out of pure awesomeness.

 

I like Saitama too and believe he's awesome. But I don't understand why everyone contrasts him to Rain.

 

I mean ... Saitama is a deadpan character, so he's even more bland, even if it's for comedic effect. And he's even more overpowered than Rain is.

 

The story formula is always --> Introduce villain --> hype up villain as invincible by destroying all other heroes --> Saitama shows up and destroys villain handily without receiving a scratch.

 

I like that formula just fine, but it's weird for everyone to knock Rain as bland and overpowered when Saitama is an even more minimalist rendition of the OP character type.

[I love sleeping]

I like Saitama too and believe he's awesome. But I don't understand why everyone contrasts him to Rain.

 

I mean ... Saitama is a deadpan character, so he's even more bland, even if it's for comedic effect. And he's even more overpowered than Rain is.

 

The story formula is always --> Introduce villain --> hype up villain as invincible by destroying all other heroes --> Saitama shows up and destroys villain handily without receiving a scratch.

 

I like that formula just fine, but it's weird for everyone to knock Rain as bland and overpowered when Saitama is an even more minimalist rendition of the OP character type.

I don't consider saitama bland at all he got a personality that shines in the non-comedic scenes. Take for example the fight with sea king and the talk about lisenceless rider( another great character).

 

 

Also ONE does not use the other characters to make saitama shine. The author of rain makes it clear that the side characters only purpose it make rain look better.

[Fjolsvinnr]

I don't consider saitama bland at all he got a personality that shines in the non-comedic scenes. Take for example the fight with sea king and the talk about lisenceless rider( another great character).

 

 

Also ONE does not use the other characters to make saitama shine. The author of rain makes it clear that the side characters only purpose it make rain look better.

 

Not sure how you think a bunch of throwaways who get trashed in order to make Saitama either A: look more noble or B: look more powerful isn't using the cast to prop him up.

 

Anyway, we obviously have two very different interpretations of what's going on in these two mangas. I like them both. You obviously like one much better than the other. To each his own.

Edited by Fjolsvinnr, 03 August 2014 - 04:53 AM.

[mimamotte]

For proof, check out the threads posted for this comic where a female approaches a small portion of Rains power and center of worldness. http://vatoto.com/comic/_/comics/witch-craft-works-r46 Especially the pissed thread.

 

Then compare the male protagonist in witchcraft works, with the princess/queen in Rain.  Despite her important position and hidden power, she is not much but a fangirl of Rain, drooling over him and counting on him for everything like a past and future helpless damsel in distress. She's pathetically meek and wears absurdly skimpy clothes sometimes.  Whatever you might not like about the male protagonist in whichcraft, she's ten times worse, especially since she is suppose to be a ruler. Well she can always marry Rain when she gets old enough via time lapse that the censors won't object, and be his trophy wife as he rules wisely and greatly, the planet of Rain ; that is, if the comic Rain dared go against the stream and have a relationship progress ; also required would be a character in Rain, that isn't Rain.

Your opening post lose its meaning the moment you used Witch Craft Works as comparison. Although I'm aware information on Wikipedia isn't 100% accurate but this is just for reference. Rain is under Shounen while Witch Craft Works is Seinen. Please have a look at Shounen Manga wiki, then Seinen respectively.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Sh%C5%8Dnen_manga

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Seinen_manga

 

You have the time to check out other forum posts but failed to recognize the differences between Shounen and Seinen manga? Stop being egotistical thinking every single manga(s) out there is targeted at you alone, and reacted strongly when someone tried to prove you wrong but is fast deny other people's(including the author) freedom of expression.

Just move on to Seinen or Josei if you are over 18 year-old and feels that Shounen or Shoujo has became too childish for you, but there were also people who are mature at a young age or those who are young at heart, so its all a matter of preferences. There is something for everyone, you can choose other titles to read, why make such a big fuss?