50 replies to this topic

[falconbane]

Updated 06/26/14

 

Minor discover - All of MC's units are all FRENCH references.

Noticed anything in the LN that references something?  This will be updated as we go along.  But if there's any question in regards to names, abilities, etc...  ask away and I'll answer to the best of my abilities.

 

 

 

Seen thus far -

God of [Origin and End] - "I'm the Alpha and Omega" should ring a bell.

 

First Party - 2 childhood friend/sibling (1m then 1f) trope.  (Suikoden 2 comes to mind vividly).

 

OP MC dropped to lowest level trope

 

Yandere stalker girl trope

 

Starting from a cave and moving bases and upgrade+ - insert numerous turn-based strategy games from DOS/PC-97 era.

Recruiting team member via the dungeon - <insert any number of TBS games>

 

Increasing troops via breeding from the dungeon - <insert numerous TBS hgames, of the recent companies, Eushully used that system quite a few times)

 

Airgeatlámh - http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Nuada_Airgetl%C3%A1m from Irish myth, the first king of Tuatha de Danann

One of Airgeatlámh (prosthetic silver arm)`s ability is [Elemental Echo] which is a loose reference to the Gem Box/Soul of Thamasa relic from FF VI http://finalfantasy.wikia.com/wiki/Soul_of_Thamasa

 

Setting Hobusei of a non-existing unit - <insert multiple TBS ames, personally remember Dragon Knight 4, Empire of Angel 1+2, etc...) (It's unit name is  french for Prayer)

 

Gobukichi's "ラーヴエロジオン", it's revolution, with french pronounciation. 

 

Gobumi's Unit "Tirard" - to pull (from old french Tirer), they are an archery unit, you do the math.  Yes, the name IS Tirard, provided in the RAW.

 

Gobue's Unit "Patri" - "Noble" ala "patrician", "noble man" whose job description was "steward of the land".  Gobue's unit mines, farm, terraform, etc... to clarify, the nobleman were still expected to work their piece of land (usually small), unlike the ones usually depicted sitting in some big castle.  The japanese wiki's "Patri" refers to ancestral land, start digging from that point if interested.  Edit:  Using the french word, but faced with the same problem, leading to the same result.

 

Reference that's not too sure of

Hobusato's "レッドシャルジュ", "Red Charge" - likely referring to the numerous TBS games that had high mobility horsemen that had average/low health and defense.  I think the "red" might be referring to the selection tile turning red when you use it to attack and move away again, I recall Kintaro and Angel of Empire having this feature, but I'm not exactly sure if this is what the author is referencing.  http://www.napoleon-series.org/reviews/military/c_pawley.html This is the likely reference, light cavalry as well.

 

Reference still to be identify

none at the moment

 

 

Notable Abilities -

 

[Predict] - allows him to see where enemies' attack is going to be via red lines superimposed in his vision.

 

[Pyrokinesis] - allows him to produce and control Fire, (this is separate from Fire magic)

 

[Hydro Hand] - allows him to produce and control Water, (this is separate from Water magic)

 

[Electro Master] - allows him to produce and control Electricity, (this is separate from Electric magic)

 

[Aero Master] - allows him to produce and control Wind, (this is separate from Wind magic)

 

[Earth Control]  allows him to produce and control Earth, (this is separate from Earth magic)

 

[Spider Thread Creation] + [Thread Wielding Arts] - allows him to produce silk threads like those of spiders, he has been

using this to craft clothing, armour, bed and so forth.

 

[Scale Armour Formation] - turns his skin into scale, boosting defense.

 

 

[Metamorphosis] - allows him to change his body into that of a slime.  Limbs lost in this form will be grown back, he was using

this to produce a fake tentacle as "arm and hand" until he got the Airgeatlámh.  (Other use will become apparent later)

 

[Lord of the Mountain's Strong, Supple muscle] - improve overall power.  This is a reference to murim novels where the MC either was born with it, train into it, or given/stolen it.  It's the basis for everything in those murim novels. (minus lord of the mountain part of course).

 

[Presence Sensor] - Able to unconsciously detect organisms from sound and smell.

 

 

 

Coming up -

Spoiler

The spear [Starving Impaler of A Thousand Thorn(Kazikli Bey)] is referring to the turkish name for Vlad the Impaler, whom dracula is based on.  http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Vlad_the_Impaler

 

Bey = Chieftain, modern version is Sir

Kazikli = Impaler

 

[Army of Blood-dye Crimson Spears(Tepes)], an ability of the spear [Kazikli Bey],  Tepes is Vlad's romanian version of the same nickname, it means "Impaler" or "Spike".

 

Edited by falconbane, 26 June 2014 - 05:54 AM.

[alexmustdie]

just want to let you know,

ラーヴエロジオン is not Revolution, Revolution should be  レボリューション cant find any reference to what it supposed to mean though.

レッドシャルジュ should be Red Charge instead of Red Surge

ティラール Tireur which of course means Gunner in french

i also cant get my mind of Patri  sounds a bit strange.

Edited by alexmustdie, 22 June 2014 - 10:47 PM.

[falconbane]

just want to let you know,

ラーヴエロジオン is not Revolution, Revolution should be  レボリューション cant find any reference to what it supposed to mean though.

レッドシャルジュ should be Red Charge instead of Red Surge

Thanks for the Charge!  I wasn't there for the naming of the groups so I didn't search them and took them at face value.

You are right, ラーヴエロジオン isn't revolution, I should have looked at it more carefully.  This one is a mystery for now.

 

And nope, Tirard isn't gunner unfortunately, it's based on Tirer.

 

"Tyrrell as a surname is of unclear origin, but it is believed to have derived from Old French "tirer" = to pull.

Tyrell, Tirrell, Terrill, Terrell, Terrall, Turrell, Tearall, Tirial, Tirand, Tirant, and Tirard are some variations of the same name."

 

Tireur would be based on tirer, not the other way around.

 

As for Patri, anyone that spent any time with old greek would agree shit sound weird.  Also because it's a part of another word.

 

Edit:  I think I got ラーヴエロジオン, thanks.  - Nope, was thinking rahvarinne, doesn't romanize like that.

Edited by falconbane, 22 June 2014 - 11:46 PM.

[alexmustdie]

i know that tirard doesnt mean gunner its mostly used as a person name, thats why i think its should've been tireur which mean gunners/shooters which of course came from tirer which mean shoot. (ref to francs-tireurs)

as for Patri, its just a feeling i have that i miss something, cant get my hand on what though.....

Edited by alexmustdie, 22 June 2014 - 11:58 PM.

[falconbane]

tirer means to pull in french o.O  are you... confusing your french?

 

the original tireur came from the "someone who pulls the lever" iirc

 

the word being used in gunner is very specific, there's no lever.  I don't have access to the old genealogy database, so I can't check, but Tirard might be a trades name, either a bowman or a labourer.

 

 

Do let me know if you find out what's wrong with patri, but I'm pretty sure I got that one nailed .

 

 

As for ラーヴエロジオン, it's nagging at me.  Ralph?  Rahver?  Ravello?  GDI!

[ChaoticCod]

Well, I assume Patri was confused with Pottery because they sound alike. So perhaps if you sounded out the syllables of ラーヴエロジオン, you could get a clue at what it means? At the very least, it'd help others try to guess at its meaning if you spelled it out in romaji?

Edited by ChaoticCod, 23 June 2014 - 12:09 AM.

[alexmustdie]

tirer also means to shoot

http://www.oxforddictionaries.com/translate/french-english/tirer

also tireur mean shooter/gunner as demonstrated from Francs-Tireur which mean Free Shooter

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Francs-tireurs

 

for ラーヴエロジオン (Rāvuerojion) the only thing i can think of is Reversion but im also not too sure about that, searching google with the "ラーヴエロジオン" as a keyword only net 3 result and 2 came from re:monster page itself.

Edited by alexmustdie, 23 June 2014 - 12:16 AM.

[falconbane]

yeah, I guess that's what happened with the other guys.

 

I made triple sure about Patri before calling for the change (there's even a patri cafe thing in japan)

 

I feel like it's the author using a japanese localize version of an older european trade name.  I mean, we already have that rare version of Catherina ffs.  ラーヴエロジオン feels like a Germanic name, but I'm also thinking Italian.  This will bug me for a while

 

tirer also means to shoot

http://www.oxforddictionaries.com/translate/french-english/tirer

also tireur mean shooter/gunner as demonstrated from Francs-Tireur which mean Free Shooter

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Francs-tireurs

 

I know what they are, I'm talking about the origin of the word "gunner" in french.  You have to realize that a large number of occupation is derive from their action, and their action end up being the name of the labourer.  As newer occupation evolve, they tend to keep to the naming scheme.  In the case of "tireur", the bow occured before the gun.  From what I remember from my old humanity classes, "to shoot" in french is derived from "pulling the lever", meaning that the root word for shoot is actually "to pull".  You can trace the usage of the word and the date when it first appeared, it's no coincidence that the name appear around the time when firearms did.  There's no substitute for "shoot" in old french since they had used "throw" (which split off into a class of family names on its own).

Edited by falconbane, 23 June 2014 - 12:22 AM.

[alexmustdie]

well im only saying that Tirard is more often used as a person name, while this is a group name which probably fit Tireur more.

[Ken Akira]

Gobukichi's "ラーヴエロジオン" (Rāvuerojion) -> Revolution
Hobusato's "レッドシャルジュ" (Reddosharuju) -> Red Surge
Gobumi's "ティラール" (Tirāru) -> Tirard
Gobue's "パトリ" (Patori) -> Patri, aka Patriots

Revolution, Red Surge, Tirard, Patriots...

They are a fucking Revolutionary Army.

 

[falconbane]

well im only saying that Tirard is more often used as a person name, while this is a group name which probably fit Tireur more.

 

No, it doesn't fit at all, where's the gun?  Like I said, the root is "pull the lever", I guess you can argue for the crossbows, but what about the bow?  Also, this is in a medieval high fantasy setting, Tireur would be highly inappropriate here.

 

http://ja.wikipedia.org/wiki/%E3%83%91%E3%83%88%E3%83%AA%E3%82%AD

 

here for the japanese reference for patrician パトリキ, just パトリ with キ xP 

 

@ken

And yeah, I have a feeling all the units have names that relate to them.  If only we can steal the author's reference book <.< 

Edited by falconbane, 23 June 2014 - 12:42 AM.

[alexmustdie]

so may i ask your reference for tirard and it connection with shooting bow?

while for tireur

tireur à l'arc = bowman;archer

tireur d'élite  = sharpshooter; marksman

tireur embusqué  = sniper

tireur = shooter

all from french dictionary.

[falconbane]

that's the thing, I don't have access to the university genealogy database anymore (haven't for years).  That's why I said it's either "but Tirard might be a trades name, either a bowman or a labourer."

 

And you are still not getting the point, I'm talking about the ORIGINAL DATE tireur has entered common usage.  The french dictionary is using MODERN references,  I don't think my french is proficient enough to try digging at online french references, I'll give it a shot though.    

[alexmustdie]

it seems you're the one missing the point, Tirard = Family name while Tireur= Shooter which used in Francs-Tireur which is a famous unit in french, you're talking about Tireur just enter the dictionary after the middle age, but the fact say that its a legit term of a long range unit while Tirard is only a surname, i cant imagine the author picking a group name from a surname instead of an already established term.

[falconbane]

Francs-Tireur only appeared in the 17th century, it is an illegitimate term because they are in a high fantasy setting which normally exclude firearms,  from the online sources, I can only trace the word as far back as very late 16th century (Tresor http://www.cnrtl.fr/) while the Tirard family name predates the 15th century (pick your genealogy tool, I used the french geneanet). 

 

also click on this

http://www.etymonline.com/index.php?allowed_in_frame=0&search=tireur&searchmode=none

then click on tirade near the end of the explanation, it will bring you to

http://www.etymonline.com/index.php?term=tirade&allowed_in_frame=0

and you will get the etymology of when the word that's being used as shooting (18th century)

 

Noticed the word tirer

"(16c.), from tirer "draw out, endure, suffer,""  (16th century)

notice the lack of the word "shooting" there? 

 

Tireur being use in with our modern term as "to shoot" would be completely wrong.  And Tirard is appropriate ONLY if the name is in reference to military, according to geneanet, they were restricted to NW france during the 1500.  Which happens to be in the same area where hundred years war with england a generation or two ago.  The name probably go even further back but all the resource I need is behind a paywall, so xP  The odds of them being related to the war is quite high since labourers such as porters are common everywhere, not just restricted to the NW of france.

 

The point is, Tireur is a modern term that wouldn't fit that setting, and Rou is japanese, there are famous people with the Tirard name that's being taught in japanese school.  Tireur is a term that's pretty specific to french immersion and maybe shooters.  The odds of Rou knowing Tirard vs Tireur is laughable.

 

Also, you still don't seem to understand the concept of trade names.  The family got that name because of the action of their profession.  The Tirard family GOT the Tirard name BECAUSE they pull something as their job.  Meaning that their name is synonymous with tirer.  Which is a hell lot more appropriate than Tireur on so many levels.  An unit with a family name is actually VERY acceptable (actually, there's an armoury with that a name just like that a few highway from here).  Would it be wrong to call a group of blacksmith the group name "Smithers"?  Actually, I might even find an example of that if I try hard enough

Edited by falconbane, 23 June 2014 - 07:42 AM.

[alexmustdie]

btw tireur became shooting since it was used in tireur d'arc which of course mean "he who draw a bow" a poetic way to say Archer.

and you argue that the setting of the story is medieval, well the story is medieval but im pretty sure Rou original world is a modern world, and he's the one naming the group. the odd of rou know Tireur better than Tirard is on Tireur odds, a famous group from french revolution vs somebody name.

 

well i only stating my opinion, and its not like im involve in the translation project my suggestion ask a french guy which between Tirard and Tireur more fit. Ciao.

PS: i still think its Tireur

Edited by alexmustdie, 23 June 2014 - 02:25 AM.

[falconbane]

I'd rather ask a historian and professor over any random french guy, assuming he even remembers me >.>

 

anyone can have an opinion (ie GW Bush is really Jesus), need someone with actual knowledge to get half decent answer. 

 

If Rou ever go "Pewpewkittylaser wwwwwwwwwwwwwwwwwww", then I'll agree with you

[Thorene]

I think the role Gobumi's squad should be enough to settle this.

 

No, it doesn't fit at all, where's the gun?  Like I said, the root is "pull the lever", I guess you can argue for the crossbows, but what about the bow?  Also, this is in a medieval high fantasy setting, Tireur would be highly inappropriate here.

"Tirer" is the french equivalent of shooting, except that it has more uses.

 

The point is, Tireur is a modern term that wouldn't fit that setting, and Rou is japanese, there are famous people with the Tirard name that's being taught in japanese school.  Tireur is a term that's pretty specific to french immersion and maybe shooters.  The odds of Rou knowing Tirard vs Tireur is laughable.

The name Tirard isn't familiar familiar to me so I doubt it's known as much as you think.

On the other hand "tirer"(as in shooting) is a very common word in french and french is a major language so french immersion isn't negligible. The author might have picked it up from a vacation in a french speaking country, or have french speaking friends, or have taken some basic french course. 

The author might also have google translated it.

 

Personally I don't really mind the way it is actually. The author might have decided he wanted it sound differently from "tireur". But I'm sure he was looking for the "shoot" from "tirer" rather then the "pull"

Edited by Thorene, 23 June 2014 - 06:55 AM.

[falconbane]

I think the role Gobumi's squad should be enough to settle this.

 

 

"Tirer" is the french equivalent of shooting, except that it has more uses.

 

The name Tirard isn't familiar familiar to me so I doubt it's known as much as you think.

On the other hand "tirer"(as in shooting) is a very common word in french and french is a major language so french immersion isn't negligible. The author might have picked it up from a vacation in a french speaking country, or have french speaking friends, or have taken some basic french course. 

The author might also have google translated it.

 

Personally I don't really mind the way it is actually. The author might have decided he wanted it sound differently from "tireur". But I'm sure he was looking for the "shoot" from "tirer" rather then the "pull"

 

*facepalm*

Sorry, I think you dropped in a little late without context.  It seems like people don't understand the "origin of names".  I'm not referring to the modern word of "to shoot".  I've been explaining the origin of Tirard to the point that I feel like I can write a book on introduction to genealogy (in case you don't know what it means, it is study of family, their history, origin, ancestor, descent, the whole 9 yard).  I'll go one more time from the top. 

 

Surnames, namely trade names (aka families that had their name originated from their crafts), were often derived from their profession.  Ignoring the other 3 categories of names, this category of names is the easiest to trace due to its simple naming scheme, mainly the originating profession.  We good so far? 

 

Now we need to get into a bit of etymology (which is the study of word, its meaning, adaptation, origin and changes).  The word and name in question is "Tirard" and alex's "Tireur" and how they fit into a standard japanese's version of "medieval high fantasy setting" that our MC is currently in (for reference, you can see tsukaima no zero, blade dance, etc...).  Here's a helpful link in case you need further explanation on high fantasy http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/High_fantasy.

 

So let's get "Tireur" out of the way first.  The "modern meaning" of the word is "shooter/gunner", correct?  But at which point did that came into use to refer as "someone who shoots"?  Using a french resource Tresor (http://www.cnrtl.fr/), the earliest text available that uses the word "Tireur" referring to a "shooter" was in 1598, okay, that pegs it at very late 16th century.  It's safe to assume that the word have been used earlier, so let's say it's the 16th century.  Using the same tool, tirer has been found to  mean "to pull" from the late mid-late 15th century.

 

Now let's use our other online resource, http://www.etymonline.com/ to look for tireur.

http://www.etymonline.com/index.php?allowed_in_frame=0&search=tireur&searchmode=none

the result is franc tireur, this isn't what we are looking for, but it serve our purpose.  Near the end of the explanation, you will see " from tirer "to draw, shoot" (see tirade)". 

 

At this point, some might go "aha!  See, tirer means to shoot!"  But keep going, click on tirade.

 

Oh look "1801, from French tirade "a volley, a shot; a pull; a long speech or passage; a drawing out"", tirer must mean "to shoot" now!  Nope, keep reading. 

 

"(16c.), from tirer "draw out, endure, suffer,""  <-- 16th century french, no mention of "shoot", well, what about that italian reference?  Tbh, I think their origin is even older, with no reference at all to "shoot".

 

Okay, so what does all this mean?  Well, first, that tireur wasn't in wide use until almost the 17th century, around the time when the paper cartridge came out.  Meaning the word itself was likely invented or modernize to make it suitable for using it with firearms.  The word itself was based on "to pull a lever" in reference to said firearm, I wish I remember the books it was from, but I learned it via a course pack and can't remember the name of it for the life of me. 

Second, the old meaning of the word "tirer" had no reference to "to shoot", rather, it's "to pull" or "to draw" amount its other meaning (except no "to shoot" of course).  So for a healthy dose of margin, let's assume that "Tireur" started being in use somewhere between 1600-1700.  This is already several hundred years out of the high medieval period.

 

So canditate "Tireur" has many issues

- a word that shouldn't exist within a medieval period

- had its origin tied to firearm, where it's rare or non-existent at all in most medieval high fantasy settings

- is actually based on an older word

 

Now, let's get to genealogical side.  Using the french geneanet, you can see that the name Tirard was restricted to the north west of France.  The earliest tab is 1500, the name is likely present at an earlier time, but to look for that, I'd need to pay money, so let's just say it's an established name in the 1500s.  Remember what I said about trade names being from one's profession?  And what was the meaning of Tirer from the 16th century before?

"To Pull" or "To Draw" would be the likely candidate for the "Tirard" family name.  What occupations in this time period do those actions?  Some sort of bowman or a general labourer would be the obvious choice.  Now let's narrow it some more.

 

General labourers were everywhere, so why did this name only appeared in the north west of France during the 1500s?  What was going in the north west of France during this time period?  That would be the Hundred Year War with the English.  What weapon were used during the war?  Yep, bows.  So the chance of Tirard originating or relating to bowmans is actually really high, a lot higher than some general labourers anyways.  Considering that trade names became common around the mid medieval period, it wouldn't be an exaggeration to say that Tirard could've easily existed in the 1200 or even before that.  

 

Now tell me which is more appropriate for a name in a "medieval high fantasy setting".

 

Next is the problem of which one would Rou likely know first.  This requires a bit of japanese cultural knowledge and their education curriculum.  First, let me say that French Immersion is bloody rare in Japan.  German, Russian and English are a lot more common than French.  Secondly, if memory serves and their curriculum haven't changed too drastically, some of their World History electives are bloody weird starting at 高二.  Aside from oddly specific, obscure historic events.  There's also things like minoan architecture, roman baths, tribes of the amazon, the iroquis confederacy, diet of moors, historical figures, authors, etc...  they (japanese students) were more likely to learn about "obscure" things than "famous" things like the franc-tireur.  And yes, depending on which study it is, the meaning of the name sometimes get taught as part of the class.  So the odd of a japanese having "heard of a Tirard" is actually higher than having "heard of a Tireur".  And then there's the fact that they are somewhat obsessive with european names to the point that they have numerous genealogical reference books for european names, which is where I think the author pulled the names from.

 

This is one of those case where people born with the language actually not knowing the origins of the words in said language since they were never taught how to look into it (well, except maybe german, their language is so direct, so you string a bunch of words together and it somehow still make sense, so no need to learn that except maybe origin).

 

Also, an unit having a proper name/family name is actually more popular than I thought, way more common than having a just generic name.

 

 

TL;DR modern name != suitable for medieval high fantasy, likelihood of knowing Tirard vs Tireur from a japanese education leans toward Tirard, tradition of naming unit with generic name = a lot less than with a proper name.

 

Hope this is detailed enough to explain the etymological, genealogical side of the debate as well as a little bit of japanese education (I do wonder how much standardization have changed their curriculum though).  Rather than someone just knowing the language, grabbing a dictionary and think they somehow know what they are talking about when they don't even know the origin of the word they are using, or a surname that's supposed originated from the language's motherland. 

Edited by falconbane, 23 June 2014 - 09:09 AM.

[alexmustdie]

just saying, i myself a chinese korean spending middle school and high school at mainland china and HK, and i never heard about the word Tirard until now, while i know the word Tireur from studying the french revolution back in high school, the concept of not learning something because it was deem famous and instead learning something obscure is strange by itself, and no i never remember any of my high school teacher explaining the etymology of a person name when we learn world history.

You seem to forgot while the word Tireur doesn't exist in medieval period, rou is definitely not a medieval guy, his memory is from the modern time.

So you need to stop saying the word Tireur doesn't exist in the story because of its medieval setting, cause Rou modern memory make that argument invalid, the one making the group name is Rou the guy from the modern time instead of people from the native world. Even the Olympic branch of archery is called Tireur d'arc in french.

To make this simple, the chance of a person searching the meaning of Francs-Tireur or Tireur d'arc in wikipedia or dictionary is more likely than a person combing the genealogy and etymology for the meaning of Tirard after he hear the name Pierre Tirard.

 

All thing aside, the inconsistency on the manga kind of  bothering me. in ch 1 they use Goblin Rou, in ch 2 and 3 they use Goburou in ch 4 they return to Goblin Rou, also in ch 3 its the Origin and End and in ch 4 its Origin and Demise.

Edited by alexmustdie, 23 June 2014 - 10:16 AM.