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#6381
Officer Judy Hopps

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I love fantasy, but I cannot get through Tolkien's books. Too many songs and poems and other elven gibberish to accompany generally dry writing. I appreciate his work, and the universe he created, but I'm not a fan of the actual books.

Though, really One Piece has lots of tragedy. Nothing quite on the scale of Hughe's death, but it has a surprising number of solid emotional moments.

You have to admit, Hughes' death was just terrible. The LAST character anyone wants to get killed, pretty much.

Most of the manga I read are little off to the side series. Seven Deadly Sins, Souma, and OP are really the only big ones I'm invested in.

Tragedies are fine with me as long as they're not overdone (ie author goes out of his way to make characters miserable and hopeless with no way out a la Arthur Miller).

*cough* GRRM *cough*

But still, Game of Thrones is fantastic.

Edited by The Hawk's Eye, 06 April 2016 - 11:07 AM.


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#6382
Führer Itulhu

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Umineko is everything you ever need rolled into one rollercoaster from hell

Only thing on par with it is Muv Luv and the iconic certain tragic scene which every fan wishes they could relive again... only to throw up and cry for days again.

Crunch crunch crunch

Muv luv is created by the devil. The first part with the happy highschool life is the biggest mislead ever

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#6383
ANIMA

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The first part is the most boring thing ever. 

 

But the second part... 

Man, I wish I could lose my memories of that game just so I can replay Ultimate and Alternative again.


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#6384
SliceAndDice

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You have to admit, Hughes' death was just terrible. The LAST character anyone wants to get killed, pretty much.
*cough* GRRM *cough*
But still, Game of Thrones is fantastic.


Honestly, I'd hesitate to call anybody in GoT tragic at this point, mostly because you don't really watch everything fall apart around them, they just suddenly fall in a hole and get screwed (sometimes literally). The non-Bran/Ricken Starks being the notable exception of course. Not a bad series, I just think Martin has terrible things happen for either shock value or gritty realism rather than giving the reader a catharsis.

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#6385
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The first part is the most boring thing ever. 
 
But the second part... 
Man, I wish I could lose my memories of that game just so I can replay Ultimate and Alternative again.


Ikr
First its wtf is this generic shit... then for me it was well this is kinda amusing.

Then rollercoaster ride of the century

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#6386
Mors

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Tragedy isn't supposed to be cathartic, it's supposed to be stirring. Admittedly, GoT isn't my favorite series. Martin is a great storyteller, but I find his actual writing style to be a bit boring. The  show does a good job of bringing the setting to life, I feel it tries to hard to sensationalize everything for the camera, and don't like some of the choices to break away from the books. That said it's definitely the best fantasy tv show out there right now, though not really near the top of my favorite book series. 


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#6387
SliceAndDice

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The Greeks actually molded tragedy as a theatrical genre pretty much for the sake of causing a catharsis. They viewed it as a necessity for emotional health, and tragedy's ability to cause one by its very nature is one reason why they deemed it a higher art form than comedy (which is a view that's very much been carried on into the present. Ever notice how comedic movies/plays don't really win awards?). It doesn't even have to be the intention per say, it just happens if tragedy is done correctly because it interacts with people in that manner. There are plenty of techniques to cause a stir in your audience; there's only one way to get a catharsis.


Edited by Hero of Ishval, 07 April 2016 - 11:19 AM.

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#6388
Mors

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I feel Greek tragedies are much more structured than modern "tragedies", and should be viewed separately. I also feel you may be using the word "catharsis" wrong.

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#6389
Diabolical Rhapsody

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Tragedy isn't supposed to be cathartic, it's supposed to be stirring. Admittedly, GoT isn't my favorite series. Martin is a great storyteller, but I find his actual writing style to be a bit boring. The  show does a good job of bringing the setting to life, I feel it tries to hard to sensationalize everything for the camera, and don't like some of the choices to break away from the books. That said it's definitely the best fantasy tv show out there right now, though not really near the top of my favorite book series. 

I agree. I personally think Rothfuss and Sanderson are more engaging. Rothfuss even more than Sanderson.


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#6390
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I feel Greek tragedies are much more structured than modern "tragedies", and should be viewed separately. I also feel you may be using the word "catharsis" wrong.

 

Aristotle defined tragedy as "an imitation of an action that is serious, complete, and of a certain magnitude. In language embellished with the several kinds of artistic ornaments- the several kinds being found in the separate parts of the play. In the form of action not narrative. Through pity and fear effecting the proper catharsis of these emotions." Which means their "structure" really only covered 3 things;

-Certain magnitude meant they thought true tragedies could only happen to characters of a certain status, like Kings. We've gotten away from that as a strict rule, especially with Arthur Miller's tragedies of the common man, but even today a lot of them still revolve around that certain magnitude. Especially in high fantasy settings.

-"...action not narrative" simply meant they couldn't just be poetry read on stage, there had to be acting.

-And it had to evoke the catharsis, which for them (and my posts above) refers to the purging of strong emotions like anger or sadness from the body by experiencing them through a proxy. For the Greeks it was kind of like those modern all-liquid diets people do for a week every so often to completely flush their digestive system, only for the emotional spectrum.

 

And even if you're talking about structure in terms of their plot organization, there are a lot of writers who continue that today, all starting with Eugene Scribe and his concept of "the well-made play" back in in the 1800s, which was heavily based on Greek ideals and plot devices and very much utilized Aristotle's Tragic Plot Structure. That idea got picked up by several more writers, most notably Henrik Ibsen, Emile Zola, and Anton Chekhov, and then continued through to modern plays, mainly through Arthur Miller. Even today it's widely considered the standard for tragedies written for the stage.


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#6391
Mors

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I suppose I worded my comment poorly. I meant today there are works, as you've mentioned, that can be classified as traditional tragedies which draws from the Greek tragedies. But something like Game of Thrones, is not what others, yourself included, would categorize under this genre. Game of Thrones is tragic, it just isn't a tragedy by certain literary standards, and I'm sure it wasn't meant to be. The catharsis thing was mostly grammatical, I don't think you can be "given a catharsis" just pretend, but it's super trivial just pretend I never brought it up.

 

tldr, unless you're trying to strictly define something in one genre or another, saying a work of fiction isn't tragic just because it doesn't make the readers cathartic is pedantic. 

 

@DR: Yeah I love both of those. Name of the Wind might be my favorite fantasy book as a standalone, but actually the book I'm looking forward to coming out most right now is the last in Mark Lawrence's new trilogy. If you haven't checked him out, you should. I hard a hard time reccomending the author at first because his first trilogy is pretty slow to get into, and the main protagonist is a bit of a sociopath, but so far the sequel trilogy has been fantastic.


Edited by Mors, 07 April 2016 - 10:59 PM.

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#6392
Unbelievably Majestic

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@DR: Yeah I love both of those. Name of the Wind might be my favorite fantasy book as a standalone, but actually the book I'm looking forward to coming out most right now is the last in Mark Lawrence's new trilogy. If you haven't checked him out, you should. I hard a hard time reccomending the author at first because his first trilogy is pretty slow to get into, and the main protagonist is a bit of a sociopath, but so far the sequel trilogy has been fantastic.

 

I liked his first trilogy quite a bit. And I liked Jorg as a character. His sociopath-y personality was different to most main characters and I thought that was a lot of fun. I guess it just comes down to preferences. But I would agree that the second trilogy has been pretty darn awesome and stronger that the first in many ways. And the main characters in this one are much more likable. The third book in the series is gunna be very interesting. :3


Edited by Unbelievably Majestic, 07 April 2016 - 11:21 PM.


#6393
SliceAndDice

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I suppose I worded my comment poorly. I meant today there are works, as you've mentioned, that can be classified as traditional tragedies which draws from the Greek tragedies. But something like Game of Thrones, is not what others, yourself included, would categorize under this genre. Game of Thrones is tragic, it just isn't a tragedy by certain literary standards, and I'm sure it wasn't meant to be. The catharsis thing was mostly grammatical, I don't think you can be "given a catharsis" just pretend, but it's super trivial just pretend I never brought it up.

 

tldr, unless you're trying to strictly define something in one genre or another, saying a work of fiction isn't tragic just because it doesn't make the readers cathartic is pedantic. 

 

 

It seems I wasn't clear then. Presence or lack of a catharsis is not why I don't personally classify a lot of GoT as tragedy, it's because outside of a few key tragic events (Balor's Sept, Red Wedding, and Viper vs Mountain are the major ones that spring quickly to mind), there's rarely any substantial dramatic build-up, the bad things just happen to people suddenly and unexpectedly out of the blue. And that to me isn't tragedy in a literary sense, it's just shock value.

 

The catharsis comment was in to voice one of my main gripes with the books.


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#6394
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That's cool. I disagree with the lack of buildup for some of those scenes, but to each their own.


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#6395
Diabolical Rhapsody

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@Mors: Thanks for the recommendation, man. Now that I am looking to read books again, I think he'd be right up my alley. I like sociopath-y characters, I love Hannibal and I see no reason to not love Jorg.

 

I agree, Name of the Wind is quite a book.


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#6396
Vafhudr

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As resident pseudo-expert of ancient buggery, I would like to make a few hair-splitting remark on the concepts of catharsis and tragedy.

 

Tragedy was not molded on the concept of catharsis. Aristotle derived his concept from the plays. Between the original performance of the tragedies and Aristotle dicking around in Athens passed as much as 150 years. The original plays, especially Aeschylus, were still pretty much religious ceremonies as well as entertainment - though frankly I am not sure if we can call any of these plays entertainment. Only Aristophanes, for sure, but the comedies were a much more uh profane genre.

 

Aristotle, not being a citizen, nor privy to the original works or original scripts, would have had a very different experience watching these play and his conclusion about them are, at best, iffy.

 

Or, as I like to put it - everything Aristotle has written is pretty much wrong. His definition of catharsis and tragedy and comedy only sort of work for most of the extent corpus. Ironically, the one who's corpus matches Aristotle's definition the least - Euripides - is also the one we have the most left of. And not because he was better. We just happen to find a more complete Byzantine complete works of Euripides than the rest of his competitors. 

 

Catharsis, as formulated by Aristotle, is basically just audience response. Aristotle interpreted the actions illustrated in tragedies as designed to illicit particular emotions. Considering the complexity of the original affair, that's a bit reductive, to say the least. The tragic competitions (the Greeks being Greeks they basically applied the Olympic model to theater as well) served, possibly, a much wider social and cultural purpose than a mere emotional purgative. 

 

From the perspective of a modern, I certainly feel no such emotion toward these works. 

 

Next problem - Aristotle, being Aristotle, went on to basically define "scientific" and philosophical research for the next 2000 years or so - in the west, at any rate. Which is an achievement of its own, I suppose. There is also something somewhat damning about the culture of the Occident that it seems to be built on cumulative misreading of a few handful of texts. Aristotle being a major culprit here. 

 

Far from starting in the 1800's, people have gleefully taken up and applied Aristotle's theoretical speculations since the Romans. Starting with Horace, among those whose works have survived, and his Art of Poetry. Now in Europe plays kind of disappeared for a while - until they were reborn under the form, once again but in a completely different context, of mystery plays. Once mystery plans began to be banned by the Church, some troupe simply changed the name of their plays to "tragedy". Which, as plays that were also a religious explanation of a corpus, was strikingly similar to the original tragedies of the greek - which can also be said to be the illustration of religious content through performance. This was followed and influenced by some of the rediscoveries of the renaissance. Aristotle became a serious source in France in the debates surrounding literature in the 16th, 17th and 18th century, or at least Aristotle through Horace. A lot of Art of Poetry-style treatises sprang up around that time. Hell most of what is called Classical French Theater is the literal application of Aristotle's doctrine, reworked and, dare I say, radicalized in a rather fundamentalist reading. The theories of the Poetics became the hard precepts dictating the form of what good theater should look like. If you want to see what that looks like, I direct you to the playwrights Pierre Corneille and Jean Racine. Corneille's Le Cid is an example of a play built specifically according to the specifications of Aristotle. The famous Académie Française had for mandate to enforce and criticize on the basis of the revealed truths of Aristotle. 

 

It makes for okay watching and reading. 

 

(casually dismisses works that are judged to be near perfection and undeniable in gravitas)

 

If we stick to the more theoretical sense of tragedy, what Mors is talking about is drama. And drama also, I think, better captures what could be called the more popular sense catharsis: in other words, straight up emotional manipulation by setting up scenes and situations that illicit emotional reactions. To take France as an example again, they had many weird subgenre that met that definition - "théatres de la cruautés" or "fables sanguinaires", which staged gratuitous violence and sordid scenarios in what was the 16th and 17th century equivalent of horror movies and snuff films. Later on you have the "comédies larmoyantes", which are kind of like romantic comedies today. Actually a lot of film genres today continue these non-tragic genres. Probably because a "tragedy" put on film would make a terrible movie if played straight or according to Aristotle's view of tragedy. These plays really amped up the emotional connections. 

 

If I can give my own version of what is meant by tragedy, I would define it so: 

 

Tragedy is a scenario in which a protagonist struggles with destiny, and, usually, fails. 

 

The Greeks were quite the fatalists, addicted to oracles and astrology, and believed that in many ways your fate was already sealed. A tragic struggle is anyone who fights against it, willingly or unwillingly, in trying to outwit or discover their destiny. To struggle against this alien force, in the form of gods, spirits, the fates - it will be revealed that the hero was doomed from the start, for in the struggle their weakness is revealed and they seldom overcome it. Some accept it, some have to deal with the ramification of their actions, others fight to the very end: at the end of the day they all bow down to it, though. To really drive this home, the tragedies were all taken from the stories that everyone in the public knew. Everyone knew how it would end. 

 

I would not classify Game of Thrones as a tragic work. A drama, for sure, I suppose. It certainly shares a lot with the older genre of theater of cruelty, but I get very little sense of fate in the series. Mind you, I only watched the show. But to me, the story as I watched it, seem to have made a point to kill off character pointlessly or abruptly in attempt to reflect the instability and arbitrariness of "Real Life". None of the character is fighting against fate in this world - fate literally does not exist, and so it cannot be a tragic work, according to my definition derived from my reading of ancient works and contra Aristotle. 

 

TL:DR

 

Tragedy, as a genre, is a tad complicated.

Drama is probably the more accurate word. 

Aristotle's Poetics is sketchy as balls in trying to analyse the ancient works. 

Most of modern conceptions of tragedy, and our categories more generally, are inherited from Aristotle, 

and from those who have disagreed with The Teacher. 

Aristotle sucks. I could make a fruitful academic career in demonstrating that.


Edited by Vafhudr, 09 April 2016 - 05:07 PM.

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#6397
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Vaf pls, I have to read over 100 pages of statutes and case briefs every night and you spring this monster on me.

 

@DR: Np man.


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#6398
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Thanks Vaf. 


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#6399
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Hah

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#6400
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wow... you guys should read angel dentetsu


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