33 replies to this topic

[Solidus]

The rest of the world is much worse off.  Rape in the US is an egregious crime.  In India, it's a weather pattern.  Japan practiced slavery too, and like most embarassing parts of its history, they've decided to leave it out of their school books.  Why don't you read up on Nan King during World War II.  Japan was as bad as their allies.  You know, those goose steppers.

 

There are no innocents in the world.  Africans enslaved africans to sell to europe and the americas.  American Indians kept black slaves.  And before Amerigo Vaspucci had two continents named after him, they slaughtered their own, as well as committed genocide against the other races on the continent.  Check out the Kennewick Man documentary, it's interesting, though easy to write off as conspiracy nonsense.

 

Society is always evolving, some parts of it at slower rates.  When we judge or criticise the way people are treated in other countries, the apologists will tell us it's a "complicated" situation and that we don't understand their "culture."  Someday our politicians will be brave enough not to care about offending scumbags who treat people like livestock.  Probably won't happen before the nuclear apocalypse though.

[Cake-kun]

well I just wanted to add here that whatever happened settled and now I have Volume 1. /happiness

[Purple Library Guy]

I remember hearing about a case in Boston, where a high school girl was raped and then bullied until she committed suicide.  And speaking as a Canadian, I should bring up the Nova Scotia case of a high school girl who was raped, the bastards who did it took pictures and posted them on Facebook, and then she was bullied online until in the end she committed suicide.  Numerous complaints to the police while she was alive resulted in no action whatsoever; they did nothing until her suicide became a national news story.

 

I don't think we can be too smug about Japanese and Korean culture being messed up.  Yeah, they are, but there's plenty beams in our eyes.

[anonymous preferred]

I remember hearing about a case in Boston, where a high school girl was raped and then bullied until she committed suicide.  And speaking as a Canadian, I should bring up the Nova Scotia case of a high school girl who was raped, the bastards who did it took pictures and posted them on Facebook, and then she was bullied online until in the end she committed suicide.  Numerous complaints to the police while she was alive resulted in no action whatsoever; they did nothing until her suicide became a national news story.
 
I don't think we can be too smug about Japanese and Korean culture being messed up.  Yeah, they are, but there's plenty beams in our eyes.

 

Well, no one has brought up Korea here. (or did I miss it?) South Korea and Japan are two different countries, having very different cultures. Mentioning Korea and Japan in the same sentence as if they are identical is, in my opinion, as absurd as lumping USA and Canada, or France and Germany together just because they're neighboring countries.

 

Still, I agree with you that bullying can happen anywhere. I read comments in Mangafox about school bullying (all those people can't possibly be Japanese) - they have more intense discussions than here in Batoto.

You're combining two different things in your argument that destroys it. Societal flaws are not the same as government flaws. Societal flaws are when a vast majority of the 'people' turn a blind eye to an 'injustice' being done because they don't want to admit that their society is messed up. Government flaws stem from a very small number of people doing things to usually protect their job under the guise of doing it for the country.

 

Ignoring bullying among school kids is a societal flaw. The society has chosen to ignore bullying because it is easier than trying to stamp it out. A country's people have chosen to do this.

Wikileaks and Snowden is a governmental flaw. Those in power chose to keep it hidden to protect themselves and their jobs. A small select group of people chose to do this. 

 

Also here is some food for thought. From 2010-Present: 129 people were either killed or injured on American school campuses including colleges from guns. What's the number of school age kids including those in college that commit suicide from bullying in Japan? All I could find were percentages showing it was on the rise but not a exact number. 

 

This is all I have to say.

 

I believe that the thread has gone off course since the OP was asking what the lawsuit was about.

 

Evan Dark generalized some random idiots threatening to sue the mangaka, and dissed Japanese society as "messed up," and I just refuted his argument. He also mentioned Fukushima, which is utterly a goverment flaw (according to your definition). Tokyo Utility company, private in name only, was run by retired civil servants, and the Japanese government really screwed up after the disaster. He mixed up two different things first; why can't I? What a double standard you have.

 

Dude, according to U,S. statistics, School bullying statistics in the United Stats show that about one in four kids in the U.S. are bullied on a regular basis. I remember that in European countries, muslim children are constantly mocked and threatened by local kids. So much for societal flaws?

 

Once again, I am not apologitic about school bullying (ijime) in Japan. It is terrible, it is wrong. It should not happen. But it's been getting national attention in the last ten years, and people have been working on it.

 

I have no problem with people denouncing a social problem in Japan. But I can't stomach people who have learned Japan from mangas and anime and rare shocking news in the international section, when they're talking holier-than-thou as if their society is sooo better than us.

Edited by anonymous preferred, 11 December 2013 - 02:39 AM.

[Shadow12000]

You also have to consider the differences in culture: there's a buddhist saying, which you might know as "see no evil, hear no evil, speak no evil." The three monkeys positioned doing those motions actually refers to, "Sometimes, some things are better ignored and not talked about."

 
Correct me if I'm wrong, this is just my own personal opinion, but doesn't that saying represent ignoring temptation and greed (see/hear), and as such, not succumbing to it yourself (speak)? Ignoring a problem doesn't seem like the correct interpretation of anything Buddhist to me...It actually sounds more like a convenient scapegoat more than anything.
 
Actually, I just looked it up, but I'm gonna keep my own original thought above posted. Apparently, in Buddhist tradition, they're about not dwelling on evil thoughts. In the western world is where the association of turning a blind eye came up, and is generally used to call out people on it, not encourage it. The only thing that encourages is, apparently, are gangs and organized crime, much like a code of honor. So, yeah, if people are actually using the three wise monkeys as an excuse to ignore the elephant in the room, that's pretty low.
 

only difference is, there isn't tons of people over here drawing manga about it.

To be fair, while we do get the occasional different comic series, we don't really have the same kind of publication when it comes to our comics. Plus, they'd prefer to come up with an alternate history than think up new ideas most of the time, which is why we have so many different variations of Batman. I'd actually be curious to see a seinen style western comic, hell, for all I know there may be some and I've just never heard of them.

[Ship571]

nationalists always have good reasons to fight those that purport to show society's ugly side, especially discrimination and abuse of authority. And when it touches "national myths" (say like all-including society), they just get enraged to no ends.

 

something I'm personally very much surprised in all those manga/manwha with a school setting is the sheer amount of work depicting school bullying.

not only are those perpetrating it extremely vicious and violent, they join forces between delinquents, schoolmate and authority figures (teaching staff, police, PTA ...) to drive the victims to insanity.

I move to many schools in a few different (western) countries, but never have I seen anything like that (even taking into account these are fiction works).

 

I really don't know if the artists are just going to the extreme because it's a form of violence that is considered "a-ok" in fictions, or whether they draw inspiration from their own experience.

but those bullies are nothing short of criminals deserving life sentences, with all their silent accomplices/witnesses duly pilloried in any self-respecting society.

In Koe no Katachi, they are mostly kids. In Black Haze, they are upperclassmen who terrorized the whole school for just 1 clumsy student.

In Girl's Wild, they are so self-destructive I just don't understand why the victims don't go mad and indulge themselves into a bloodbath of retribution.

.... and on and on.

 

For so-called "peaceful and civilized" societies, they sure display an extreme amount of self-destruction towards themselves.

I know this was posted long ago, but all I saw in thread were statements saying it's only a an Eastern thing. I'd like to correct that. Although it still may be prevalent in Asian societies, it too was around the US. Very heavily in fact until about the 90's or mid 90's some when argue when real attention to the issue of bullying made it die down. At least from it's heights. My parents and many of older generations talk about how kids were bullied physically mentally, and anything in between and it was a part of school life. People would get dumped in trash cans or punched just because they walked past a place Seniors liked to hang out and were a junior, or if someone talked to the girl or boy they liked. It was very common that if authority figures were contacted they'd turn a blind eye cause either they felt the same dislike for the victim or because the mentality of the time was if you can't save yourself you deserve to be bullied. Do I guess the point of me writing this is, do not think it's just an Asian problem it's a problem with youth everywhere, just some societies are better at sweeping things under the rug.

[Yaomo]

i would like to see any links that could tell me more about that lawsuit.

i don't think anyone would sue a magazine to force them to publish a manga, unless they'd written a contract that said they'd publish it if the oneshot won that award. and i doubt they'd do that. mangaupdates mentions legal dispute, but not what kind.

 

it's easy to see how it would be difficult to start a serialization. the manga is about a girl from an already marginalized group being treated extremely cruelly. without anyone trying to save her. for a shounen manga, this gets a little too extreme when it's also a very realistic story, and not some kind of fantasy that somehow manages to moralize through its characters. this manga doesn't hide any of the ugliness, and doesn't take any shortcuts to happy ends between characters. it also shows a lot of the consequences of bullying that are usually never talked about because only sever injuries or death make it to the media. and anything else is hushed down, without anyone thinking about the emotional scars that both the bullied and the bullies may have come to suffer. the "making up" they do in schools usually focuses more on stopping the kids from doing bad things rather than to give them better means for communication.

[Bladestone]

I can't deny the Japanese society has many flaws. But the feudal Japan didn't massacre Native American, they didn't gas millions of Jews, they didn't enslave millions of black people.

 

 

 

 

Japan has just as much of a dark past as anyone.

[Cake-kun]

Japan has just as much of a dark past as anyone.

 

Yes, but he actually does have a point; Until unified back under Emperor, Japan didn't really show much interest for outside.

...Except when Toyotomi Hideyoshi retardedly tried to invade Korea so he can make way to invade China.
 

Politicians do stupid shit all the time, I suppose. No less then two hundred years later, Napoleon invades Russia, and...

 

Oh, well, another thing would be that, I suppose there was no need for Japan or Korea to persecute other ethnicity.

 

China was doing that for everybody for, well, forever. They still are attempting to this day, in place called Tibet.

Edited by Cake-kun, 13 March 2014 - 03:40 AM.

[Purple Library Guy]

Well, no one has brought up Korea here. (or did I miss it?) South Korea and Japan are two different countries, having very different cultures. Mentioning Korea and Japan in the same sentence as if they are identical is, in my opinion, as absurd as lumping USA and Canada, or France and Germany together just because they're neighboring countries.

 

I mentioned Korea because I read a fair amount of manhwa and Korean webtoons, and it seems clear that Korean society is, in fact, pretty fucked up, and that many Koreans themselves are aware of this and unhappy about it, even trying to change it.  And whether we've ragged on Korean society in this particular thread or not, speculation about the problems of Korean culture comes up in manhwa/webtoon threads pretty often because they so often seem to be portraying messed up social situations.  So I really don't think mentioning Korea in this connection is out of line, but thanks awfully for trying to police me.

 

It is also not absurd at all to lump the USA and Canada together or France and Germany together because they're neighbouring countries.  Neighbouring countries do in fact generally have a lot in common.  Canada certainly does with the US, loath though I am to admit it.  France, though it's certainly been at loggerheads with Germany and, before it, the Holy Roman Empire, and though the French and Germans may consider themselves very different, still the two share quite a lot of cultural assumptions they might not share with, say, Yemen or Sri Lanka.  Similarly Koreans and Japanese, while often at odds, have some strong cultural similarities and some similar historical concerns (resisting Chinese invasions and/or cultural influence, for instance).  Some linguistic similarities too, near as I can figure--senpai/sunbae and so forth.  Come to that, the senpai/sunbae thing is not only a language thing but a cultural thing as well--to have a similar word for that, you have to have that cultural schtick in common so as to have a word for it at all.

Edited by Purple Library Guy, 13 March 2014 - 07:12 AM.

[oboeotaku]

I mentioned Korea because I read a fair amount of manhwa and Korean webtoons, and it seems clear that Korean society is, in fact, pretty fucked up, and that many Koreans themselves are aware of this and unhappy about it, even trying to change it.  And whether we've ragged on Korean society in this particular thread or not, speculation about the problems of Korean culture comes up in manhwa/webtoon threads pretty often because they so often seem to be portraying messed up social situations.  So I really don't think mentioning Korea in this connection is out of line, but thanks awfully for trying to police me.

 

It is also not absurd at all to lump the USA and Canada together or France and Germany together because they're neighbouring countries.  Neighbouring countries do in fact generally have a lot in common.  Canada certainly does with the US, loath though I am to admit it.  France, though it's certainly been at loggerheads with Germany and, before it, the Holy Roman Empire, and though the French and Germans may consider themselves very different, still the two share quite a lot of cultural assumptions they might not share with, say, Yemen or Sri Lanka.  Similarly Koreans and Japanese, while often at odds, have some strong cultural similarities and some similar historical concerns (resisting Chinese invasions and/or cultural influence, for instance).  Some linguistic similarities too, near as I can figure--senpai/sunbae and so forth.  Come to that, the senpai/sunbae thing is not only a language thing but a cultural thing as well--to have a similar word for that, you have to have that cultural schtick in common so as to have a word for it at all.

Stuff is messed up over there for a variety of reasons (mostly corrupt conservative politicians...hey this might relate back to something), but I think another reason as to why it seems so prevalent is that webtoons are much more open and free form as opposed to manga (since they aren't being hounded by editors and stuff to try and make things more moe or some shit to try and increase sales). They are free to explore all the unsavory topics that mangakas are always advised to avoid, which is why some of my friends maintain that properly executed webtoons are much more interesting than most manga.

 

I will begrudgingly admit that there are many cultural and linguistic similarities though (many that are even closer than the example you mentioned). Though it would have been safer to avoid lumping the two.

 

That Nova Scotia incident is something else though, thanks for enlightening me on that (I'm a potato who doesn't look at the news, so I never knew).

Yes, but he actually does have a point; Until unified back under Emperor, Japan didn't really show much interest for outside.

...Except when Toyotomi Hideyoshi retardedly tried to invade Korea so he can make way to invade China.
 

Politicians do stupid shit all the time, I suppose. No less then two hundred years later, Napoleon invades Russia, and...

 

Oh, well, another thing would be that, I suppose there was no need for Japan or Korea to persecute other ethnicity.

 

China was doing that for everybody for, well, forever. They still are attempting to this day, in place called Tibet.

Unfortunately, once they did start showing interest in the outside, they kinda tried to make life hell for little ol' Korea. The Korean hatred for Japan is the byproduct of numerous attempts at invasions and an occupation period in which they did their best to try and destroy their culture. I can see why Koreans, especially older ones, may resent the Japanese, I have no idea why the opposite is true though.

 

~~~

 

Now, I see a lot of conflict here about exactly how the US stands in relation to Japan/Korea/let's just be safe and say Asia with regards to how messed up the respective cultures are. My own 2 cents? Humans are messed up, simple as that. I would think though that it's slightly more messed up across the Pacific though. There is some next level government corruption over in South Korea at the very least. My parents would agree that it's nicer over here in the west.

[KaazaLite]

If you guys are taking these ficitonal stories as reflective real society than you guys are as retarded as that rights group. If it interest you THAT much, than do some actual research from actual creditable sources. There are cases where authors base their stories on what they believe to be true (though highly likely exaggerated) but its impossible to check the their creditablity unless the story gets really famous or infamous. The author doesn't even claim this to be the case for this story.

 

In fact, I do kinda understand were this "rights group" is coming from, they know that there are lots of foreign morons who will judge their country base on media sources that are either fictional or have no real credibility, certainly wouldn't be the first time its happened. Fucked up families (way more fucked up than this one) and extreme bullying being depicted as commonplace (again, way worse than this one) happens all the time in fiction, regardless of country, why would they be so anal about this? This isn't even the first manga with stuff like this, is it cuz it has a disabled person in it?

 

Lastly, does anyone here know for sure what this "rights group" is acutally complaining about or are people just talking out of their asses again? People talk out of their asses all the time.

[JordanPaHa]

In the United States Society we have put a topic that bullying is wrong into everyone's mind. But does bullying actually stop. No.

Now imagine Japan without the Stop Bullying commercials..

 

I guess the bullying in manga is a topic some Japanese can relate to also. Cause just think about it. Why does Manga with bullying get published?

 

Anyway back to the topic on hand-

I think the lawsuit was made to keep the black and white from mixing.

(Also the Lawsuit informed many people that this may happen more than you think. This lawsuit proves it in my opinion.)

 

Black-Bullying

White-Society's Perspective

 

If the Black and White mix it will equal gray. Simple Right?

 

Gray- The Soceity's outlook on Bullying.

 

 ".....the traits of Japanese society. It is well-known that Japanese society is homogeneous. People tend to consider that being similar to each other is a virtue and gives a sense of relief or safety. People are afraid of being different from others. They do not want to feel alienated. They attempt to be like one another; otherwise, they will be considered deviants (Sakamaki, 1996). People will try to eliminate people who are different from them to protect themselves. In individualistic nations, like the United States, to be different has significant meaning. People have various thoughts and styles and they show them openly. But in collectivist countries, like Japan, the differences produce hard encounters. The differences might include people who have an exceptional ability, and they will be abused because of jealousy of others. For example, if a student is unusually good at math, the great talent may bring him a bully. He will be a target of ijime. Kiyoteru Okochi, himself, might have had an extraordinary skill..."

[Ijime: A Social Illness of Japan By: Akiko Dogakinai

 

(Sorry for my confusing words you either understand what im trying to say or u dont) IM Really Sorry!!!!!

[misterdwu]

I wouldn't say the rest of the world is worse than Japan. It's just as bad (for post industrialized countries as a comparison. I don't count countries that are not on the same level of economic or industrial status. As such, countries like China or Vietnam don't count, it is still an industrializing country).

I can name quite a few things that can be troubling in Japan.

 

1. Government corruption is number one. They can pretty much choose who they want in power, but put them in positions of power, beyond the "voting" thing. I mean, why else would TEPCO, to this day, still not be required to clean up their mess.

2. Mafia can operate out in the open, and quite legally. I mean, they are disguised as legal companies, but everyone, and I mean everyone, knows they are a Yakuza group, doing the usual mafia stuff.

3. Legal/Illegal prostitution. Technically its illegal, but no one really enforces that law there, unless you are underage. But I think all countries have prostitution issues.

 

4. Things they have that all other countries have: racism, discrimination, gang violence, rape, murder (except that if you are the son of a politician, you get off free, even if you have killed and eaten a prostitute. In fact, you get to go on TV shows and talk openly about how you killed and ate a prostitution, because screw the rules, your dad has power). Interesting fact about rape in Japan. Almost no one reports it. Its considered a social shame on the victim if they get raped. So although its "lower" than other countries, it is actually much, much higher.
Oh yeah, and Japanese discriminate against other Japanese people (Burakumin if you wanted to know). In the US, you can sue for that. In Japan, lawsuits rarely do anything in these cases. So the Japanese are free to discriminate against whoever they want.

5. Oh, and many of the older generation, especially most politicians, refuse to accept Japan's war crimes, though I think someone already said that. Anyways, they want to make it so that they rewrite history to the point that it didn't happen. No apologies made. Ever. Hence why most of Asia still hates Japan. This exists everywhere, but in Japan, those people actually have power in Japan (they are politicians, kind of power).

 

6. Bullying. Asian kids are the worse. They bully, hard core. Its even worse because most teachers ignore it, or become part of the problem. The school acknowledges it, but they don't ever do anything. Yeah, every single bully thing you have ever read, in any manga or manwha is 100% real and not made up. The authors usually take that from their or their friends/families own real life experience. I've been to most Asian countries, and have seen bullying. If you get chosen as a target of bullying, it won't ever end until they get you to commit suicide (most common bullying phrase is to tell them to go die). At which point, the bullies win. You have no one to go to, most people don't care, and you can't tell your parents because they can't do anything. Soon your friends leave you because, they too are afraid of getting bullied as well. The country that comes closets to Japan with its bullying problem is probably Korea.

7. Social stigma instead of individual stigma. This is more of a cultural thing, but I believe it is part of Japan's problem. If everyone ignores it, then it becomes accepted. If one single person tries to fight back, that person gets outed. Having social stigma isn't bad in itself, but it leaves out the fact that people don't "regret doing bad things" if they don't get punished by society for it; and with Japan's current youth society, it exacerbates the bullying problem.
 

8. Rampant sexism and sexual inequality. Just for comparison, Japan is way more sexist than the U.S. or most other post-industrialized countries. And they have few laws against sexism and sexual discrimination, when compared to other countries. No pregnancy laws. If you get pregnant, you are pretty much forced to retire and become a housewife. So a woman can barely have a career and family at the same time. That isn't to say its not bad for men. The things that can discriminate against women have a indirect affect on men. In that it puts so much pressure on them to succeed and take care of their families. This would lead to higher stress rates, and whatever comes after. And women pretty much HAVE to wear skirts at work (I just think that is bullshit). Its ingrained into their corporate culture, only few companies let them wear other stuff. There is more, but I'm too lazy to say it.

 

9. Legal discrimination against foreigners (in that there are few to no laws against it). Also they are unreasonably afraid of foreigners. I guess this is common in other countries, but I don't know, I don't watch sensationalized news enough.

 

10. Their debt problem is way worse than the U.S. At the very least, the U.S.'s debt matches our GDP, but Japan's is far past what their yearly GDP can recover. Japan has the world's worst debt problem. Second only to Greece, but that's another story. This has more to do with economy than society, but I just like talking about it for no reason. 

 

Well that concludes my essay on Japan's faults, within adding any citations, since most of this is known or can be easily looked up. I don't mean to say I hate Japan, or think its the worse country. This is just to let people know that Japan is as bad or good as every other country out there, beyond the rose tinted glasses of what the manga and novels about Japan present. I sometimes think people praise Japan too much, but then again, the grass is always "cleaner" on the other side. Personally, I would like to live in a country like Japan for one reason, clean public transportation, though it would be better if it didn't have as much people. If you feel like disputing my unsubstantiated claims, feel free.