33 replies to this topic

[pantsu]

I'm just curious about the lawsuit that kept this manga from being published. Was it between the author and the magazine? I'm confuzzled. 

[Cake-kun]

Supposedly, some retarded rights-group sued to have artist banned from working further, because they thought subject was unfit for Japanese society, or some bullshit along the line. That's what I read.

If anyone have details I'd like to hear it too, actually. After all, when Japanese Disability Association is assisting the artist to publish/promote work like this, I don't see how much retarded logic you'd have to spew it out to get people to not read this.



Magazine editors went far as to say "we don't care if you read this from library or some other way, please read it". They want this publicity. And it deserves the good ones.

[Starbuck]

nationalists always have good reasons to fight those that purport to show society's ugly side, especially discrimination and abuse of authority. And when it touches "national myths" (say like all-including society), they just get enraged to no ends.

 

something I'm personally very much surprised in all those manga/manwha with a school setting is the sheer amount of work depicting school bullying.

not only are those perpetrating it extremely vicious and violent, they join forces between delinquents, schoolmate and authority figures (teaching staff, police, PTA ...) to drive the victims to insanity.

I move to many schools in a few different (western) countries, but never have I seen anything like that (even taking into account these are fiction works).

 

I really don't know if the artists are just going to the extreme because it's a form of violence that is considered "a-ok" in fictions, or whether they draw inspiration from their own experience.

but those bullies are nothing short of criminals deserving life sentences, with all their silent accomplices/witnesses duly pilloried in any self-respecting society.

In Koe no Katachi, they are mostly kids. In Black Haze, they are upperclassmen who terrorized the whole school for just 1 clumsy student.

In Girl's Wild, they are so self-destructive I just don't understand why the victims don't go mad and indulge themselves into a bloodbath of retribution.

.... and on and on.

 

For so-called "peaceful and civilized" societies, they sure display an extreme amount of self-destruction towards themselves.

[Evan Dark]

@Starbuck:

 

Yeah, the portrayal of bullying in Japanese manga has puzzled me as well. The most extreme I've seen was in "Yume Miru Kusuri" (Visual Novel, first route). But then again Japanese society is pretty different from European ones, we don't have any internal authority between students here, while they have this Sempai/Kohai thing. If the bullying is really that bad in Japan, they have big problems.

 

But the bullying in Koe no Katachi feels just about real. Even though the whole class is doing it, the only one they can point it on is Ishida. But when he's caught, his "friends" just bail out, and treat him like the bad guy. Again, in my experience, even if they weren't his real friends, they'd never betray him just like that, but who knows Japanese society?

 

Afterwards he's being bullied, and tries to commit suicide. I find it hard to accept that, normally he'd just drop out of school, and become a delinquent, or something. He had a strong personality, that'd come through in one way or an other. The manga handles this by making him lose all the confidence and energy he had before. I say it's an unlikely, but not impossible change.

[Cake-kun]

@Starbuck:
 
Yeah, the portrayal of bullying in Japanese manga has puzzled me as well. The most extreme I've seen was in "Yume Miru Kusuri" (Visual Novel, first route). But then again Japanese society is pretty different from European ones, we don't have any internal authority between students here, while they have this Sempai/Kohai thing. If the bullying is really that bad in Japan, they have big problems.
 
But the bullying in Koe no Katachi feels just about real. Even though the whole class is doing it, the only one they can point it on is Ishida. But when he's caught, his "friends" just bail out, and treat him like the bad guy. Again, in my experience, even if they weren't his real friends, they'd never betray him just like that, but who knows Japanese society?
 
Afterwards he's being bullied, and tries to commit suicide. I find it hard to accept that, normally he'd just drop out of school, and become a delinquent, or something. He had a strong personality, that'd come through in one way or an other. The manga handles this by making him lose all the confidence and energy he had before. I say it's an unlikely, but not impossible change.

I hate to be the bringer of the facts, but East Asian countries have highest suicide rate for this reason: South Korea and Japan fights for the #1 place since 2000s, and China has been slowly increasing its suicide rates. (Though, of course, actual number, not the rate, is far highest when you realize and look at its population)

Edited by Cake-kun, 27 November 2013 - 04:30 AM.

[pantsu]

@Starbuck:

 

Yeah, the portrayal of bullying in Japanese manga has puzzled me as well. The most extreme I've seen was in "Yume Miru Kusuri" (Visual Novel, first route). But then again Japanese society is pretty different from European ones, we don't have any internal authority between students here, while they have this Sempai/Kohai thing. If the bullying is really that bad in Japan, they have big problems.

 

But the bullying in Koe no Katachi feels just about real. Even though the whole class is doing it, the only one they can point it on is Ishida. But when he's caught, his "friends" just bail out, and treat him like the bad guy. Again, in my experience, even if they weren't his real friends, they'd never betray him just like that, but who knows Japanese society?

 

Afterwards he's being bullied, and tries to commit suicide. I find it hard to accept that, normally he'd just drop out of school, and become a delinquent, or something. He had a strong personality, that'd come through in one way or an other. The manga handles this by making him lose all the confidence and energy he had before. I say it's an unlikely, but not impossible change.

Google "ijime", and you'll see how serious the situation is. In a rigid society where bullying is often overlooked because it is too troublesome to deal with, sometimes children and young adults feel they have no other choice (but suicide) and are a burden to the world. And, as Cake-kun said, it happens a lot in East Asia. One more recent example actually was a case of bullying by the elementary school teacher, which drove a 10 year old (11?) student to jump out of a building.

 

You also have to consider the differences in culture: there's a buddhist saying, which you might know as "see no evil, hear no evil, speak no evil." The three monkeys positioned doing those motions actually refers to, "Sometimes, some things are better ignored and not talked about." This includes bullying. The extent of bullying can be much more severe as well, as entire classrooms will gang up on students. Having this done to you every day as a child or young adult which is when you feel the need to be accepted is pretty degrading. The effects of this are amplified, since the general Asian culture dictates that you not stand out and that one should integrate oneself into the social structure. 

nationalists always have good reasons to fight those that purport to show society's ugly side, especially discrimination and abuse of authority. And when it touches "national myths" (say like all-including society), they just get enraged to no ends.

 

something I'm personally very much surprised in all those manga/manwha with a school setting is the sheer amount of work depicting school bullying.

not only are those perpetrating it extremely vicious and violent, they join forces between delinquents, schoolmate and authority figures (teaching staff, police, PTA ...) to drive the victims to insanity.

I move to many schools in a few different (western) countries, but never have I seen anything like that (even taking into account these are fiction works).

 

I really don't know if the artists are just going to the extreme because it's a form of violence that is considered "a-ok" in fictions, or whether they draw inspiration from their own experience.

but those bullies are nothing short of criminals deserving life sentences, with all their silent accomplices/witnesses duly pilloried in any self-respecting society.

In Koe no Katachi, they are mostly kids. In Black Haze, they are upperclassmen who terrorized the whole school for just 1 clumsy student.

In Girl's Wild, they are so self-destructive I just don't understand why the victims don't go mad and indulge themselves into a bloodbath of retribution.

.... and on and on.

 

For so-called "peaceful and civilized" societies, they sure display an extreme amount of self-destruction towards themselves.

So, essentially, someone just wanted to bar the comic from being released? I don't think the author was defying any laws by attempting to submit her work to publishers. 

[Portalboy]

Some people just can't stand to see their dirty laundry being aired.

[Starbuck]

thx guys for reminding me about the cultural differences between Westerners and Far Easterns, but my beef wasn't so much about the existence of bullying at school (it happens pretty much everywhere in "civilized" societies because of their inner violence), and rather with the sheer amount of manga/manwha works that include it into their topics, while depicting a viciousness that is barely believable.

 

Sometimes, I try to imagine if cases such as these were to be "real" in a western society and how it would be treated.

Not because it can't happen, but because of all the elements that need to make it happen :

1) violently thuggish kids or teens

2) submission of entire classrooms (or even schools) to their practices

3) denial of responsibility by the teaching staff

4) active obstruction, or even destruction of evidences, by outside parties (Police, PTAs ...)

5) pariah status or criminalisation of the victims

 

....... and that's a lot when you think about it. It's really at the level of community conspiracies for nobody to dare to say something or think they can't be afraid of subsequent prosecutions.

teens not being afraid to be sent to juvies is extremely rare, and mostly happens when they are from the poorest section of societies ("it can't be worse than my whole life thus far"), not rather middle-class.

if manga/manwha deal with this topic so much, it's truly amazing that it's not more talked about IRL.

I remember that very dark manga (Sai 17) about a real event, and I can totally see it happening, though an extreme case. But most of those school life bullying fictions are just too disturbing not to make me wonder ...

 

the "see no evil, hear no evil, speak no evil" is not particularly an Asian problem. the same exist in western societies through scapegoating which has the function of releasing ourselves from our responsibilities unto one "black sheep" ... pretty much for the same reasons

 

 

Have fun,

[holy_demon]

the "see no evil, hear no evil, speak no evil" is not particularly an Asian problem. the same exist in western societies through scapegoating which has the function of releasing ourselves from our responsibilities unto one "black sheep" ... pretty much for the same reasons

Your comment remind me a bit the recently repealed US military policy "Don't ask don't tell", which pretty much implies "Homophobic bullying? Not my business"

[Cake-kun]

I don't know if it's any way related to this, but Amazon has stopped carrying volume 1 as of moment. There's no notice when it'll be back.

 

Godamnit.

Edited by Cake-kun, 30 November 2013 - 02:59 AM.

[rpapo]

That particular setup on the page usually means they've run out and it is only available on the secondary market now.  Unfortunately, those secondary resellers rarely ship outside the country.

[Cake-kun]

That particular setup on the page usually means they've run out and it is only available on the secondary market now.  Unfortunately, those secondary resellers rarely ship outside the country.

That's the part I'm not sure about. Did they run out because they stopped getting it? or something else?

 

Usually they indicate that item is out of stock temporarily on Amazon. Though there are rare cases where they don't, yeah. (Usually there's a sign on bottom that should say "Temporarily out of stock")

[rpapo]

That's the part I'm not sure about. Did they run out because they stopped getting it? or something else?

 

Usually they indicate that item is out of stock temporarily on Amazon. Though there are rare cases where they don't, yeah. (Usually there's a sign on bottom that should say "Temporarily out of stock")

I've seen the temporarily out of stock before, where they say they are getting more.  But this is the kind of thing I see all the time with the manga monthlies and weeklies, where they have no intention of ordering more for stock.  The problem is, they usually try to keep tankobons in stock, for years, all the more so if they are popular and selling well.

 

I have learned to buy something the day it comes out, or forever hold my peace.  Trying to get something in the aftermarket is difficult . . . unless you can take the train to Akihabara.  Unfortunately, that is not an option for me.  They are only a half a world away from me...

[Cake-kun]

I've seen the temporarily out of stock before, where they say they are getting more.  But this is the kind of thing I see all the time with the manga monthlies and weeklies, where they have no intention of ordering more for stock.  The problem is, they usually try to keep tankobons in stock, for years, all the more so if they are popular and selling well.

 

I have learned to buy something the day it comes out, or forever hold my peace.  Trying to get something in the aftermarket is difficult . . . unless you can take the train to Akihabara.  Unfortunately, that is not an option for me.  They are only a half a world away from me...

Fortunately I live near access to Kinokuniya USA. If anything I can order from them I suppose. Thing is, I rather from Amazon, since it's cheaper even accounting in shipping, and since I'm most likely going to bulk order some time soon.

[HammerU89]

Supposedly, some retarded rights-group sued to have artist banned from working further, because they thought subject was unfit for Japanese society.

This coming from a society that invented tentacle rape.

[Pseudonymous_Existence]

This coming from a society that invented tentacle rape.

And guro....
God damn just thinking about this makes me depressed...
No matter how amaizing I think Japan is,when I see that they make bullshit lawsuit like this and not deal with the problem my opinion of it just plumets down the cliff.

[Evan Dark]

Japanese society is messed up, that's something that no one can deny. The one blame is, of course Europe and America, we dropped western "culture" on poor feudal Japan like a bomb (we also dropped real ones, but let's not talk about that), and look what a mess it made.

 

Trying to hide things, rather than admitting that you can't deal with it, is a keepsake from the feudal Japan. Just look at Fukushima, trying to keep things under the lid is the Japanese way. This lawsuit is a prime example too.

 

@Starbuck:

Bullying is always present in school. Kids get bored, and there are some other kids that present a good target. Usually nothing serious though. Below a certain level teachers can't really do anything, because you can't force kids to be friends with someone, they don't want to. This manga is actually realistic in the beginning, picking on the deaf girl, is something that can very well happen even in western societies. Kids are smart, they know, as long as they don't leave any evidence behind, and the teacher doesn't see them, they can't get into trouble. It's the part after that, which is a bit unrealistic.

[anonymous preferred]

Japanese society is messed up, that's something that no one can deny. The one blame is, of course Europe and America, we dropped western "culture" on poor feudal Japan like a bomb (we also dropped real ones, but let's not talk about that), and look what a mess it made.

 

Trying to hide things, rather than admitting that you can't deal with it, is a keepsake from the feudal Japan. Just look at Fukushima, trying to keep things under the lid is the Japanese way. This lawsuit is a prime example too.

 

@Starbuck:

Bullying is always present in school. Kids get bored, and there are some other kids that present a good target. Usually nothing serious though. Below a certain level teachers can't really do anything, because you can't force kids to be friends with someone, they don't want to. This manga is actually realistic in the beginning, picking on the deaf girl, is something that can very well happen even in western societies. Kids are smart, they know, as long as they don't leave any evidence behind, and the teacher doesn't see them, they can't get into trouble. It's the part after that, which is a bit unrealistic.

 

I can't deny the Japanese society has many flaws. But the feudal Japan didn't massacre Native American, they didn't gas millions of Jews, they didn't enslave millions of black people.

 

 

 

Trying to hide things, rather than admitting that you can't deal with it, is a keepsake from the feudal Japan.

 

Hey, name any Asian country who DOES NOT try to hide things, rather than admitting that you can't deal with it. How about African countries? Oh, I guess the USA was sooo open about Snowden and Wikileak. And Europe? Euro currency is a mess, and people suffer there, but which European government admits it's their fault? None.

 

Japan has her share of people who deny the past, or present wrongdoings. But it's more carved in human nature than just Japanese thingy.

 

I think this lawsuit was stupid, but it was threatened by very few activist groups. What if I generalize "tea party" in USA or ultra-right wing parties in Europe, and say the western society is messed up? At least we don't shoot kids at school in Japan.

Edited by anonymous preferred, 06 December 2013 - 02:33 PM.

[rh75]

I can't deny the Japanese society has many flaws. But the feudal Japan didn't massacre Native American, they didn't gas millions of Jews, they didn't enslave millions of black people.

 

 

 

 

Hey, name any Asian country who DOES NOT try to hide things, rather than admitting that you can't deal with it. How about African countries? Oh, I guess the USA was sooo open about Snowden and Wikileak. And Europe? Euro currency is a mess, and people suffer there, but which European government admits it's their fault? None.

 

Japan has her share of people who deny the past, or present wrongdoings. But it's more carved in human nature than just Japanese thingy.

 

I think this lawsuit was stupid, but it was threatened by very few activist groups. What if I generalize "tea party" in USA or ultra-right wing parties in Europe, and say the western society is messed up? At least we don't shoot kids at school in Japan.

 

You're combining two different things in your argument that destroys it. Societal flaws are not the same as government flaws. Societal flaws are when a vast majority of the 'people' turn a blind eye to an 'injustice' being done because they don't want to admit that their society is messed up. Government flaws stem from a very small number of people doing things to usually protect their job under the guise of doing it for the country.

 

Ignoring bullying among school kids is a societal flaw. The society has chosen to ignore bullying because it is easier than trying to stamp it out. A country's people have chosen to do this.

Wikileaks and Snowden is a governmental flaw. Those in power chose to keep it hidden to protect themselves and their jobs. A small select group of people chose to do this. 

 

Also here is some food for thought. From 2010-Present: 129 people were either killed or injured on American school campuses including colleges from guns. What's the number of school age kids including those in college that commit suicide from bullying in Japan? All I could find were percentages showing it was on the rise but not a exact number. 

 

This is all I have to say.

 

I believe that the thread has gone off course since the OP was asking what the lawsuit was about.

[TaintedDream]

Also here is some food for thought. From 2010-Present: 129 people were either killed or injured on American school campuses including colleges from guns. What's the number of school age kids including those in college that commit suicide from bullying in Japan? All I could find were percentages showing it was on the rise but not a exact number. 

 

This is all I have to say.

 

I believe that the thread has gone off course since the OP was asking what the lawsuit was about.

 

First off, you listed only from guns, what about knives, baseball bats, fists, etc.? You also completely ignored that students in the U.S. also commit suicide (yes, it's true). Secondly, you comparing two different statistics. A minuscule portion of the violence against others vs. self inflicted violence.

 

thx guys for reminding me about the cultural differences between Westerners and Far Easterns, but my beef wasn't so much about the existence of bullying at school (it happens pretty much everywhere in "civilized" societies because of their inner violence), and rather with the sheer amount of manga/manwha works that include it into their topics, while depicting a viciousness that is barely believable.

 

Sometimes, I try to imagine if cases such as these were to be "real" in a western society and how it would be treated.

Not because it can't happen, but because of all the elements that need to make it happen :

1) violently thuggish kids or teens

2) submission of entire classrooms (or even schools) to their practices

3) denial of responsibility by the teaching staff

4) active obstruction, or even destruction of evidences, by outside parties (Police, PTAs ...)

5) pariah status or criminalisation of the victims

 

....... and that's a lot when you think about it. It's really at the level of community conspiracies for nobody to dare to say something or think they can't be afraid of subsequent prosecutions.

teens not being afraid to be sent to juvies is extremely rare, and mostly happens when they are from the poorest section of societies ("it can't be worse than my whole life thus far"), not rather middle-class.

if manga/manwha deal with this topic so much, it's truly amazing that it's not more talked about IRL.

 

Steubenville and all the other similiar cases popping up in U.S. and Canada? Girl gets raped, entire town knows about it, local police try to cover it up, and usually manage to do so until she commits suicide and national news stations pick up on it. So yes, it's very much "real" in western society, only difference is, there isn't tons of people over here drawing manga about it.

Edited by TaintedDream, 06 December 2013 - 05:53 PM.