44 replies to this topic

[Archmage Lezard]

It's funny, but the more people point out how creeptastic this manga gets, the more I want to get back to reading it. 

[Marshmallow]

It's funny, but the more people point out how creeptastic this manga gets, the more I want to get back to reading it. 

^This made me laugh because of how serious the previous posts have been.

 

---

 

I never liked Outarou (I'm pretty sure that was intentional by the author, though). And I never understood why Ran liked him. Maybe the attention he gave her filled any voids from the lack of presence of her parents (I get that feeling since she was so desperate to be an adult, too)? I just think the author had guts for using a relationship like this as a plot device, because whenever morals are in question things can get downright nasty from readers. I am surprised that we didn't get flashbacks on Outarou's life - or nothing really worth mentioning as such...and usually that's the plot device used to garner pity and empathy from readers for a character's humanity which is being questioned. 

 

Basically....I think the author intended for the morality of it all to be left as something to the readers to decide as an extraneous thing, because it wasn't the point of the story, but it was a plot device to drive part of it forward. (Besides, I'd have cried if she made a likeable character become the one infected by the insects.) I think it's important to note that the series isn't marked as a tragedy for that reason - but do correct me if it's 'officially' marked as one in its publications.

[Skuzze]

I read this manga a long time ago and remember thinking about what was wrong with the story.

 

He doesn't know that she's 10, the hate comes from him being able to get any girl, so when one turns up that isnt instantly falling for him, he tries harder and harder until hes in a mindset that she is the one for him. The hate for the main love interest also passes onto the main character for constantly going back to this guy, but it doesn't feel like a satisfying punishment for either of them.

 

It doesn't feel like it was worth reading.

[hyperlight]

OK, I've been trying to hold myself in because pedophilia is both a major real problem of our time and one of the biggest social bugaboos of our time, so I want to respect the sensibilities of people who are upset.  But I'm really finding a lot of these comments to be basically myopic bullshit.  Frankly, the mangaka here knows exactly what she's doing, she's handling these themes very impressively, and the people dumping all over it are dirtying it with your pedestrian moral panic crap.  This is not some lowest common denominator formula piece trying to titillate a bunch of yahoos with some forbidden ecchi, this is a work of art.  It may be one of the best manga ever written.  If you can't understand what's being done, at least have some bloody respect.

 

As to spoilers, there's a mass of talk about the death on the front page.  Now those are spoilers.  They also mean that ship has rather sailed.  When it comes to the more internal forums I generally consider a "spoiler" to be discussion about something that has not yet been released--things from the raws and such.  So I don't see what your problem is.

 

I know that responding to this comment 2 and a half years down the line is sort of useless, but what's said here doesn't sit well with me. Yes, a lot of the negative comments in this thread are oversimplified knee-jerk reactions, but it feels like this comment is dismissing all criticism of the series wholesale. This series deserves to be critiqued, all the more so if it's a "work of art."

 

I actually quite enjoyed Purple Library Guy's earlier post in the thread outlining his interpretation of the series' themes and conflicts, namely the modern vs. the primal. I can see where that analysis is coming from, and I would have agreed that the relationship between Ran and Outarou lends itself to some fascinating commentary, where it not for what I believe is a fundamental mishandling of Outarou's character arc.

 

The problem I have with Outarou, and consequently the work as a whole, is that Irie Aki never really problematizes, confronts, or deconstructs the relationship between Outarou and Ran. As a matter of fact, she romanticizes it. For all the talk of Outarou being sleazy or nasty or morally bankrupt, Irie spends a lot of time attempting to paint the relationship as charming and tender, with all the picturesque veneer of a shoujo story. While we catch glimpses of Outarou's cruelty and selfishness from time to time, when he's with Ran he's portrayed as a handsome, loving prince whose possessiveness is appealing, not repelling. There are far too many scenes of him holding a blushing Ran in his arms, surrounded by glitter and sparkles, or declarations of his love meant to win over the audience. That there are so many people who have said that they were rooting for Outarou and Ran is evidence of how attractive Irie attempts to make their relationship.

 

Even so, we know that's not what he truly is and that their relationship is unsound. Such an observation is made despite the author's efforts, not because of it. In that sense, the series is less like Lolita and more like Fifty Shades of Grey. It glorifies the the "love" between Ran and Outarou, and in doing so, glorifies the extremely creepy sexual grooming that goes on. Outarou's never really compellingly redeemed, either, so I don't buy the idea that Ran's love has somehow purified him and because of that their romance is beautiful and healthy. Saying sorry to a spurned ex-girlfriend isn't redemption. Suddenly having a different outlook on life isn't redemption. Redemption is Outarou realizing Ran's true nature and sacrificing his "love" (more like lust, dependence, and possessiveness) for her because it is the moral thing to do. But no. Even in his last moments, knowing that Ran is ten years old, he forces a kiss on her, screams at Hibi that she belongs to him, and later states "I'll always love you, even if you're ten years old." No matter how tragic and emotional Irie attempts to make his demise, the fact remains that even if Ran is some primal force of nature, some mystical conduit of sorcerous power, she is a ten-year-old child.

 

It's also worth noting that even if Outarou wasn't aware that Ran was a child before it's revealed to him, he was aware that she was a minor. Furthermore, his pushiness and sexual aggressiveness would be out of line even if they were the same age.

 

Anyway, I've seen some arguments to the idea that in a fictional world with fictional laws of reality, our own sense of morality and ethics don't apply. Or that because Ran is a sorceress, the fact that she's a child can be overlooked. I disagree. We, the readers, are absorbing this work through the lens of our reality, so drawing parallels between the social values of our world and theirs is inevitable. It's like when people argue that some sexualized childlike character is actually 1,000 years old; you can spin it however you want, but a spade is a spade.

 

So, to state it plainly, a romantic relationship between a 29-year-old and a ten-year-old is fundamentally unethical. If you disagree with that, then that's a difference in worldviews that we can't reconcile.

 

If Irie had addressed the problems and consequences of such a relationship, it would have been fine. She wouldn't even have to make Outarou be absolutely repulsive, just remove the rose-tinted glasses and illustrate how the imbalance in power in such a relationship would lead to exploitation and developmental issues. Instead, Ran and Outarou are made out to be star-crossed lovers until the end. His death is the martyrdom of a tragic prince, rather than a necessary evil. Hell, she even throws in a fanservice illustration of the two getting married. I mean, come on.

 

It would have been great to see the kind of commentary on modern life that Purple Library Guy was talking about, but for me any such analysis is undermined by the failure of Irie Aki to properly address the unhealthiness of Ran and Outarou's sham romance. Instead, what we end up with is an unabashed romanticization and apologism of sexual grooming, molestation, and pedophilia. That, for me, is unacceptable.

Edited by uysiem, 29 April 2016 - 08:47 PM.

[svines85]

Spoiler

I know that responding to this comment 2 and a half years down the line is sort of useless, but what's said here doesn't sit well with me. Yes, a lot of the negative comments in this thread are oversimplified knee-jerk reactions, but it feels like this comment is dismissing all criticism of the series wholesale. This series deserves to be critiqued, all the more so if it's a "work of art."

 

I actually quite enjoyed Purple Library Guy's earlier post in the thread outlining his interpretation of the series' themes and conflicts, namely the modern vs. the primal. I can see where that analysis is coming from, and I would have agreed that the relationship between Ran and Outarou lends itself to some fascinating commentary, where it not for what I believe is a fundamental mishandling of Outarou's character arc.

 

The problem I have with Outarou, and consequently the work as a whole, is that Irie Aki never really problematizes, confronts, or deconstructs the relationship between Outarou and Ran. As a matter of fact, she romanticizes it. For all the talk of Outarou being sleazy or nasty or morally bankrupt, Irie spends a lot of time attempting to paint the relationship as charming and tender, with all the picturesque veneer of a shoujo story. While we catch glimpses of Outarou's cruelty and selfishness from time to time, when he's with Ran he's portrayed as a handsome, loving prince whose possessiveness is appealing, not repelling. There are far too many scenes of him holding a blushing Ran in his arms, surrounded by glitter and sparkles, or declarations of his love meant to win over the audience. That there are so many people who have said that they were rooting for Outarou and Ran is evidence of how attractive Irie attempts to make their relationship.

 

Even so, we know that's not what he truly is and that their relationship is unsound. Such an observation is made despite the author's efforts, not because of it. In that sense, the series is less like Lolita and more like Fifty Shades of Grey. It glorifies the the "love" between Ran and Outarou, and in doing so, glorifies the extremely creepy sexual grooming that goes on. Outarou's never really compellingly redeemed, either, so I don't buy the idea that Ran's love has somehow purified him and because of that their romance is beautiful and healthy. Saying sorry to a spurned ex-girlfriend isn't redemption. Suddenly having a different outlook on life isn't redemption. Redemption is Outarou realizing Ran's true nature and sacrificing his "love" (more like lust, dependence, and possessiveness) for her because it is the moral thing to do. But no. Even in his last moments, knowing that Ran is ten years old, he forces a kiss on her, screams at Hibi that she belongs to him, and later states "I'll always love you, even if you're ten years old." No matter how tragic and emotional Irie attempts to make his demise, the fact remains that even if Ran is some primal force of nature, some mystical conduit of sorcerous power, she is a ten-year-old child.

 

It's also worth noting that even if Outarou wasn't aware that Ran was a child before it's revealed to him, he was aware that she was a minor. Furthermore, his pushiness and sexual aggressiveness would be out of line even if they were the same age.

 

Anyway, I've seen some arguments to the idea that in a fictional world with fictional laws of reality, our own sense of morality and ethics don't apply. Or that because Ran is a sorceress, the fact that she's a child can be overlooked. I disagree. We, the readers, are absorbing this work through the lens of our reality, so drawing parallels between the social values of our world and theirs is inevitable. It's like when people argue that some sexualized childlike character is actually 1,000 years old; you can spin it however you want, but a spade is a spade.

 

So, to state it plainly, a romantic relationship between a 29-year-old and a ten-year-old is fundamentally unethical. If you disagree with that, then that's a difference in worldviews that we can't reconcile.

 

If Irie had addressed the problems and consequences of such a relationship, it would have been fine. She wouldn't even have to make Outarou be absolutely repulsive, just remove the rose-tinted glasses and illustrate how the imbalance in power in such a relationship would lead to exploitation and developmental issues. Instead, Ran and Outarou are made out to be star-crossed lovers until the end. His death is the martyrdom of a tragic prince, rather than a necessary evil. Hell, she even throws in a fanservice illustration of the two getting married. I mean, come on.

 

It would have been great to see the kind of commentary on modern life that Purple Library Guy was talking about, but for me any such analysis is undermined by the failure of Irie Aki to properly address the unhealthiness of Ran and Outarou's sham romance. Instead, what we end up with is an unabashed romanticization and apologism of sexual grooming, molestation, and pedophilia. That, for me, is unacceptable.

 

Yup, that whole dynamic was just too creepy, it basically ruined everything else for me........a shame too, I really liked everything else about the work........but yeah, by just the halfway point it was too distasteful for me to continue with.

Edited by svines85, 30 April 2016 - 01:48 AM.