22 replies to this topic

[Aleks]

I've tried on google "xin" and found a page on wikipedia about a general from this period who conquered yan for Qin but failed miserably to conquest chu

 

So I wanted to discuss it here : do you think it's the model for our MC Xin?

so far the story keeps a certain historical logic (while many things are somehow changed or distorded)

you can see for yourself https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Warring_States_period the chronology is about good in the manga, the characters are (for many) not.

for example "wang jian" was one of the best general at the time and is to be portrayed as "wang Qi" in the manga so...he died early before most of his prowess in the battlefieldXD

 

I was checking some forums like the mangefox forum and many people were sure that the Li Xing from history was the model for xin

but : then wang qi should be alive and kicking

        Li Xing was not from a low birth

 

and I don't think Xin will become a loser when a general in the manga (in history Li Xing had some great victories but he ended all with a huge defeat losing 200 000 soldiers against Chu, after that nobody knows what he did, surely he didn't do something worthy to stay in history)

 

so, getting back to the topic my opinion is since wang qi is dead and should be the avatar of history's wang jian, xin will do the job of wang jian as the successor of wang qi in the manga

so far in the story wang jian is nowhere to be found so wang qi was certainly "him"

 

I hope it will be like that, don't want a xin losing miserably whithout a chance to get back his honor

[magax]

Check out the first chapter of the manga. He is Li Xin. The author mentioned that he is Li Xin again in the official guide book he wrote(http://tieba.baidu.com/photo/p?kw=%C...&fp=2&see_lz=1). Since this is a manga and not history, the author dont have to go according to history every single time. If the author made Xin exactly like Li Xin, a descendant of the "Li" warrior family, Li Mu will be his uncle as Li Xin great grand father is Li Mu's grandfather in history. This is obviously not true in the manga.

That defeat is not his fault entirely and that is also not his last battle.

 

After reading 349 chapters, I can say the manga follows 70-80% of actual recorded history, while the last 20-30% are minor to medium significance that doesn't affect the general outcome of future events.

 

Wang Qi is Wang Yi. Wang Jian is Wang Jian. The real Wang Jian will appear in the future. Wang Qi was made too epic by the author and many people mistook him as Wang Jian but in fact, Wang Yi, the character Wang Qi is based on, is a very unknown general in history who did died in the 3rd year of Zheng's reign. They were from the same family and thus the same surname. If you really want to know who is Wang Jian, this is him->http://www.dm5.com/m104595-p31/. Not as epic as Wang Qi in the story yet but i like his quote: "I am not interested in any battles i can't win"

Edited by magax, 12 July 2013 - 05:20 AM.

[Aleks]

thanks for the reply

it's very hard to find precise sources on chinese history written in english

as for li xin, there's almost just one sentence "blabla with 200K soldiers he lost miserably against chu...then wang jian with 600k wins.."

I found a little more but not so much such as li xin has captured the prince of yan and...that's all in english

it's almost as he died not so long after (there's no record of other battles)

as the matter of the war against chu, the only sources are pointing the responsability solely on li xin, he was cocky to only take 200 000 soldiers to conquier chu, there's nothing more that is said

 

If you have some sources or knowledge to share magax, feel free^^

 

back to the manga, what I find strange if xin is the avatar of li xin, is the whole crap about "the greatest general under heaven .."

if the mangaka stick close to the hystory then at some point xin will lose the faith of zheng (of course in history zheng and li xin were not casually talking like 2 boys on the street of course)

 

and for someone who takes the story as a manga only (no history, just the period set for a fiction) it has to be xin conquering the most of opposing nations if not it would be as if xin struggled for nothing

(wang jian conquered 5 of the 6 other states in history I think)

[magax]

There wasn't much information about Li Xin recorded in history anyway, which is why the author chose him as the main character and not other famous generals like Wang Jian. Without much recorded information, the author is free to create a story about him and not heavily restricted by recorded historical events.

 

Li Xin's first recorded information was during the unification war with Zhao in 228BC, leading armies to invade and destroy Zhao together with Yang DuanHe, Qiang Lei and Wang Jian, each taking a different route. He then invaded Yan with Wang Jian and Meng Wu in 226BC. The events in Chu happened in 224BC. Xin's 200k army had no problem in the invasion and his loss was due to Lord Chang Ping's rebellion from a castle which Xin had already conquered. With enemies from both his front and back, it is hard even for any general to win the war. He then put an end to the existence of Yan in 222BC with Wang Ben and then moved south to force Qi to surrender in 221BC. Li Xin's great grandson Li Guang was a famous general in the Han dynasty, stopping the Xiong Nu invasion several times. The Tang dynasty that started 800 years after Qin's fall was also ruled by descendants of Li Xin. Thats all the information i know about Li Xin.

 

I remember the author mentioned that he plan to make Zheng a merciful and nice king and not a tyrant as we all know. Then again, Ying Zheng's son, Ying HuHai, the next emperor of Qin, is the main cause for Qin dynasty's fall as he is more of a tyrant than Zheng IMO.

 

Considering Wang Jian acheivements is very well known, i doubt the author will make Xin's acheivement greater than Wang Jian in the future, probably his equal at most. FYI, Wang Jian conquered only the states of Zhao(with Li Xin, Yang Duan He, Qiang Lei), Chu(with Meng Wu) and part of Yan(with Meng Wu and Li Xin). The states of Wei, Qi(with Li Xin) and the rest of Yan(with Li Xin) were conquered by his son Wang Ben and finally the state of Han was by Teng.

[Aleks]

thanks for the infos

 

too bad I don't understand chinese (for scans and even more for informations about their history etc..)

 

I did read that in the campaign of chu, li xin was ambused by an army of 50 000men from chu as he was advancing too fast and without caution (he was followed for 3 days and night by that army)

well considering that qiang lei was a general in history but is a lieutenant of xin in the manga, everything's possible in the manga

 

moreover I don't think the mangaka will let lu buwei die without a battle as in history he died through politics, there was no proper battle like zheng VS his little brother (that makes me wonder what he'll do of meng wu for example as he is one of the 4 pillars)

[magax]

Political struggles need not result in an all out war though IIRC there is indeed a war between Lao Ai and Zheng before Lu BuWei's fall. Cheng Jiao will be in action again soon though the resulting battle will not involve Zheng directly as much as history tells me.

 

Lu BuWei's 4 pillars are not as loyal as you think. Meng Wu is only interested in becoming the strongest in China, and will join whoever that gives him the chance to challenge strong opponents. Cai Ze once said he only sides with the strongest faction so if Zheng's faction is one day stronger than Lu BuWei's he will probably leave Lu BuWei. Lord ChangPing is the commander in chief of the Qin army. In the future arcs, you will see cracks between him and Lu BuWei starting to appear as he puts his duty as the commander in chief and the good of Qin before his role as one of the 4 pillars. Li Si is still a mysterious man in the manga for now but just so you know...he was the prime minister of Qin from just before unification all the way to Zheng's death after unification.

Edited by magax, 12 July 2013 - 01:54 PM.

[Aleks]

as always thank you for the informations magax, you're a wiki by yourself

 

maybe then the author will create some great achievements for xin in the future that will make him the "greatest general under heaven"

given that he has more freedom with him than weng jiang or even the meng family

Edited by Aleks, 13 July 2013 - 01:20 AM.

[prongsjiisan]

what Qiang lei will be a general someday??? couldn't bear Xin walking same fate as wang yi....lol....

 

oh Xin got Diao.....

[Aleks]

I don't think so prongs

 

we were talking about historical characters with different position in the manga and their possible "outcome" later in the story, mainly the battle of chu that was a crucshing defeat for li xin (history)

qiang lei was a general in history, not a chick dancing with a sword so we can hope xin in the manga will not meet the same fate as in history (mostly with his lieutenants who were almost wiped out in chu)

 

qiang lei could never be a general, she's a fighter type not leading at all (almost associal though she slowly changes haha) , she'll probably remain a right hand for xin even later if she gets back in the unit

[prongsjiisan]

Qiang Lei has quality to be a General too. If you go back to Xin vs Wei arc

 

Spoiler

 

see she's not just your ordinary sword dancing chiks...

 

as far as I read. Qiang Lei has enough talent to be a good general...

 

Maybe her talent is par as Kyou..

 

It's not surprising.. in fact that author makes Yang Duanhe woman..

 

so it's safe to pressume that Qiang Lei is avatar of actual Qiang Lei in History..

 

Maybe the story will go like these...

 

Qiang Lei will be back to fei xin unit..

 

and after one or two battle Xin will be promoted to general and Qiang Lei will get her personal unit too.

 

and that was a road for her to be one of Qin next generation monster...

Edited by prongs12, 16 July 2013 - 09:33 PM.

[Aleks]

that may be possible, in terms of battle skills and tactics she is even ahead xin for the moment

 

but at that time a general needed to have leadership (this is not the case today anymore..) , remember when ouki with just 3 words gave confidence and morale to the qin army before marching againt zhao?

that's the type of things qiang lei is not capable of

maybe that will change (she has changed a lot already^^) but as of now, I see in her the right hand of shin and it's possible as xin's right hand to lead 1000 or even 5000 soldiers in a different detachement to lead an attack of course

[magax]

do take note that a general is just a rank, just like 100-men commander, 1000-men commander etc. a general can still work under another general, much like Tou/Teng under Ouki/Wang Qi and Mobu/Meng Wu under Ouki/Wang Yi during the Qin-Zhao war. then again i do agree that qiang lei will not become a general that lead armies in battles, it could just be her leading a branch of fei xin unit as a general by rank, taking a different route during the Zhao invasion

 

i've compiled some information about ouki/wang yi over at mangafox forums to clarify some stuff, especially the popular myth of wang qi=wang jian, do take a look if you are interested. http://forums.mangafox.me/threads/473442-Facts-about-everyone-s-favourite-Great-General-in-Kingdom-Ouki-Wang-Qi

Edited by magax, 19 July 2013 - 05:28 AM.

[Aleks]

that's a nice reminder about characters thx magax

 

it's odd to see Yang DuanHe with "higher stats" than ouki although she is just an A class

 

well as you said their stats won't for sure show every time on the battlefield (lian po has crazy stats but lost against meng ao, even though meng's lieutenants were greater)

and yeah I see qiang lei getting special missions while in the feixin unit with her crazy battle skills (well seems like xin's improved A LOT, can't wait for chap 351 raw..)

[prongsjiisan]

Qiang lei has already lead an sizeable troops. she's Xin second liutenant. lol

 

She has quite practical battle commading skills.

 

I'd like to see her commanding troops of her own... LoL

 

but above all that I'm Xin x Qiang Lei Flag member

[Brume]

Who is the (only) guy in the SS class?

[magax]

he is Yue Yi(not sure about his name in Japanese) from the state of Yan. He led the alliance army of the Qin, Zhao, Wei, Han, Chu and Yan against the then rampaging state of Qi 30 years prior to the events of Kingdom and was hailed as the "Military God". he was a legend from the past and is long dead.

 

wikipedia article: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Yue_Yi

[Brume]

Thank you for the answer.

[Hoar13]

Hello.

 

I am kind of newbie here so forgive me my English and messy writing style ^^

 

I found about Kingdom about half year ago and till now i downloaded raws up to 25 tome (sadly i dont understand that bloody bush but, hey, at least i can read from plot and images^^) and unpatiently waiting for new chapters released in here .

 

Still, i would like some clarification about history characters so far, just to make it clear for me since i dont have any confidence in reading that Bush ^^

 

Please tell me if i am wrong in putting chinese names with japanese

 

- Wang Jain is Ousen in manga

- Bai Qi is Hakuki

- Wang Qi is Ouki

- Lian Po seems like Renpa ( looks pretty well for his age tbh if thats correct)

- Li Mu Feel kinda like Riboku

- Meng Wu is Moubu

- Meng Yi is Mouki

- Meng Tian is Mouten

- Li Xin = Shin

by the way at the moment which year it is in manga? ~240?

 

Is there some webpage in english that could bring me a little more information about  reuniting china ? ( other than wiki)

 

I sincerely apologise for chaos in post .

[Ter]

Everything you got is right to my knowledge except for a minor spelling of Wang Jian.

246-241 for the main part of the manga up to the latest point in the raw. 

'Ultimate fact thread mangafox' got all the information.It's even made by King Magex so you should go there.

It seems like he stop going here since no one talks about the manga here that much. 

[Hoar13]

Thank You kind anonymous internet fellow!

 

Will check mangafox` then.