174 replies to this topic

[mencretnas]

I barely see any deus ex machina in this manga, if any

[truepurple]

It's not just the lines that say he's considering him "favored by the heavens", but how 'chance' clearly does favor Shin on multiple occasions, as though he really was being protected by the Heavenly Author.

 

As far as Ex machina, never really read it/seen it, so I can't comment on the comparison. The way powerups work and the insane power characters do have in this, does easily cross into the supernatural and unbelievable. Well her power is that mythical che power, so really is into the mythical, but I can let that pass. Its not really historical anyway.

[ShiroyashaKoutan]

I just read TF's name conversion and I saw Mou Ten = Meng Tian. Is this the same Meng Tian who will be crown prince Fu Su's best friend??

[Ter]

The only strange power ups I know of is the 'chi' from the assassin KyonKai.Going by the stat books Shin was far more talented of a swordsman then most of character he fought up to that point.Not to mention you can only learn so much from practice fights.Shin accelerating his growth in skill through real experience and life and death struggle is not outside of real expectation. 

 

Nonsense and randomly appearing allies?Could you perhaps elaborate on that please?

If you're talking about pre-wei war phrase.Then this manga admits it outright by the chancelor monologue about how unlikely things could had turn out like this.How all the piece have to fall into place.

 

I forgive them for that part through since the manga got much better afterwards.Especially after Ouki death. 

 

Purple....Assassination? You think you can unite the land if you assassinate the kings? Are you serious?That only works if the people are completely disloyal to the king and there homeland. The general/kings up to this point don't act tyranirical with obvious flaws that makes the people want to get rid of them except perhaps for Zhao.

Nonetheless do you sincerely think they're gonna pick the tyranical king over a person that is willing to assassinate other nations/states to get where they want.Especially since the person they're talking to come from the land of Qin.Who killed 400,000 soldiers/people by getting buried alive? 

Here a clue to you. The people hate other nations much more then they hate there states.They will just got superior king instead of just seceding to you or uniting under a republic or something.

 

I think you're reading that shonen manga of your far too much and trying to incorporated with this manga. 

 

Talking about your Night raid manga. 

 

You pick a main character that got helped by far superior mentors,now and in the past, and trained from his youth in multiple martial abilities.Inherit a legendary artifact that have super powers unlike Ouki  weapon which is mostly memorial. Befriended an ENEMY HEAD COMMANDER.Not a neutral party like Shin.Who might have gotten saved by Shin natural charisma(straight forwardness) and is just repaying her debt. Believed by other characters to be GENERAL-CLASSED and stated outright to one day will surpass him easily.Your character finally is the only 'rebel' in this story against the odd.While Shin have at least 5 other young generals on par with him.Most of them surpass him at leaset 2 stats out of 3 stats. Strenthwise,Leadership/commanding,Intelligences.

 

PS:Sleeping dragon is also the name of your main character.

 

I'm sorry,Purple please reread what you're comparing this manga to before you sprout nonsense about how 'superior' in realistically your manga is to this manga.You're being far more lenient to your manga than you're to this manga.I'm not saying this manga is not a lot less realisticly then a Seinen should be,but compare to a manga about 48 teigu legendary weapons able to decimate army. Well ...

Edited by Ter, 08 September 2013 - 03:59 PM.

[ronnyboygenius]

I just wanted to say that in the recent chapter, I got all cold and sweaty hands reading them because its too darn suspense

 

Am loving it!

[Moloch]

The only strange power ups I know of is the 'chi' from the assassin KyonKai.

When I was talking about strange power ups then I mean those stupid, Shōnen-esque “HURRR DURRR, the power of friendship made me recuperate from my severe bloodloss and helped me unleash vigors orders of magnitudes stronger than my usual ones” moments. A moral boost can do only so much and this manga goes WAY above and beyond that.

If you're talking about pre-wei war phrase. Then this manga admits it outright by the chancelor monologue about how unlikely things could had turn out like this. How all the piece have to fall into place.

Well, unlike you I’m not going to overlook the contrived nature of these plots so easily.

Here a clue to you. The people hate other nations much more then they hate there states.They will just got superior king instead of just seceding to you or uniting under a republic or something.

Wow, you’re so full of shit. The very concept of nations only dates back some twohundred and a bit years, after the French Revolution and the subsequent Napoleonic Wars where the European kingdoms came up with this inane idea in order to recruit enough soldiers that were willing to die for something as retarded as “their country” so that they could counter the French’s levée en masse. Prior to the fabrication of this ideological abortion the average peasant didn’t give a fuck about anything other than their family and maybe their village.

Heck, this very manga should have told you that. Have you forgotten Shin’s speech about how the majority of subjects couldn’t care less about who is king and who isn’t? For once in your life take off those elitist-colored glasses and take a look at history through another perspective than that of royalist chroniclers.

Fuck.

Edited by Moloch, 10 September 2013 - 01:36 AM.

[truepurple]

You think you can unite the land if you assassinate the kings? Are you serious?That only works if the people are completely disloyal to the king

 

You think most people in a ancient nation like that even care the least bit a who their king is? (like Moloch said) Many probably wouldn't even be able to tell you who the king is, and if they could, it would just be a name. You take out the core power and insert your own, and you own a country, easier said then done though.

 

PS:Sleeping dragon is also the name of your main character.

???

 

Befriended an ENEMY HEAD COMMANDER.Not a neutral party like Shin.Who might have gotten saved by Shin natural charisma(straight forwardness) and is just repaying her debt. Believed by other characters to be GENERAL-CLASSED and stated outright to one day will surpass him easily.Your character finally is the only 'rebel' in this story against the odd.

 

Since this isn't Nightraiders, I wonder what you are talking about.

 

Purple please reread what you're comparing this manga to before you sprout nonsense about how 'superior' in realistically your manga is to this manga.

 

I never criticized Kingdom for it's realism.

 

About kingdoms realism (off topic, hence the spoiler code)

Spoiler

It isn't realistic though, and thus to call it "historical" is a bit funny.  Kingdom is full of supernatural power, shin often literally leaps above peoples heads, and not just by a little bit. There's that spear toss which was absurd, even more so with how little Shin handles spears, much less tossing them. Generals cleanly cleave through many people at once. In reality, the difference in power between greatly skilled people and generally skilled people isn't nearly as great, but in kingdom its many many times the difference. You can practically see the "I have leveled up. watch me kill a group of slimes in one hit" above their heads. Actually, if they did float levels above characters heads to let you know their level in game,(watch out, here comes a level 60!) it would have little effect on the realism. Again, not a criticism, just a statement of fact. So I think it should ignore history and just go its own path, let it just be a vague background, a setting, well it already has done this in many ways I guess.

 

What I was talking about is a comic not too predictable. Especially where the author forcing the story the way s/he wants isn't so obvious. A story should live and breath on its own, Kingdom lacks much of this spontaneity and instead is painfully predictable in the large strokes.  This favored by the heavens bit just makes this all too obvious what I have already seen elsewhere in the comic.

Edited by truepurple, 11 September 2013 - 11:15 AM.

[jlassijlali7]

shit kingdom 357 whay is kyoukai is have bad luk hhhhhhhhhhhhhhh

++++++++++++

we will see the next scan what will happing to kyou kai is revenge

[mencretnas]

You can always read another manga/comic/manhua for that bit then Mr. Purple, Kingdom is about the delivery, the gripping cliffhanger and intense emotion from artistic point of view.

[truepurple]

Delivery and Intense emotion sure, not so sold on the "gripping cliffhanger" part though. I don't find myself at the edge of my chair wondering 'what will happen next?!?' Though I have certainly felt that reading other comics. Often the only things not  excessively predictable are stuff too inconsequential to matter.  Well I might often predict what happens next, but not in what form it happens, but that still isn't much for a cliff hanger.

[Moloch]

Oh boy, you make it sound like a cliffhanger is something desirable, mencretnas. It’s almost alyways a sign of shitty storytelling, you scrub, you xD

They are only there to ensure that people buy the next issue, watch the next episode and so on. They’re piss-poor narrative devices from a literary point of view. Imagine you were telling someone a story and stopped every other sentence, ending in a cliffhanger à la “And then ...!!” just to return with some boring continuation after holding your breath for a moment. It’s fucking awful and there’s a reason why you rarely find them in books, movies and other non-serialized media: Because they disrupt your story and because these works don’t have to rely on them since you already bought the whole medium.

When was the last time you read a manga like this in its tankōbon form? You should notice that those cliffhangers feel out of place when you have the whole story in one piece without weeks between it.

Edited by Moloch, 11 September 2013 - 11:11 PM.

[truepurple]

I agree Moloch. Cliffhangers tend to to be bad, though not always.  But if one can incorporate the spirit of a cliffhanger, minus the cliff, where while you read the story you wonder what will happen next, and you eagerly look forward to reading that answer, all the time spinning theories from what you already know, (and what does happens next fits in well with what you already know, and isn't random or forced) now that is great storytelling. Kingdom unfortunately fails in this for me majorly. 

 

Kingdom is more like violent 'fluff' piece, full of bravery, friendship, and "legendary tales" but without much substance. I also like some of the characters. If it wasn't so quick to read, I wouldn't.

 

Worse type of cliff hanger is the cheating kind. Like when the MC is falling off a ledge and a hand reaches out to catch his hand but clearly falls short of reaching last frame of cliffhanger. Then next chapter the hands magically caught somehow. They basically change things to make for a outcome that doesn't fit with the cliff.

Edited by truepurple, 12 September 2013 - 12:57 AM.

[hexdigit]

Is it just me or does Shin really looks like Ouki in Ch217/p10?

[Ter]

Well done for not realizing I don't know what type of goverment purple purpose after using assassination to kill the rulers of the other nations.;
(I was gonna say dynasty,but he's idealistic and probably went for something better)

Well done for hiding under terminology to call someone stupid instead of simply understanding what I mean.(apparently nations/countries/civilization is far too hard for you to connect so you went for a full paragraph insult)

Red Herring

Thank you for playing. Get the hell out. I rather take insult to my grammar or my thinking(I accept being called an idiot) then off tangent remarks about a mistaken terminology

;that you're obviously understood and can connect.Pretentious bastard.

 

 

You didn't bring up history of china.You didnt' bring up the wars between the state in the past .You didn't bring up how the two dynasty of peace got weakness that can be changed to allow a chain of states to succeed.

 

You didn't read about Purple SOURCE manga for his ideas.

You went off and compare termnology. I'm just gonnalearn the English language so people like you don't waste others time by diverting the conversation to things like this.

 

PS:Your idea for trying to make manga more like books have already been debated in the internet and got beat down. Lots of people enjoy cliffhangers and those are usually the audience of the manga.Apparently once people grew up and move up to books,they came back to mangas for the kids/teenagers and insult them for lacking traits of books.

You're not thinking of your target audience dimwit.(first off thought...Movies?Short...therefore stupid comparison)

Three things thought
War (Name a novelnot about relationships but fighting/war with no cliffhangers good luck)
Teenagers(growing characters)
Action based (Definitely good luck)
(No gary stu or invincible/ace level protagonist with obvious power level superiority) 

(Alucard,Miyamoto, and others)

================
Novel-End in sight.Complete by itself

Manga-Incomplete/Ending could change base on author.

Novel-Motive based.(most likely what you're comparing it to)

Manga-Action based

Gees,you can't get over the fact that unlike a novel it was made for the comics first and then publish later.

It wasn't made to be publish by itself.

Ignore the last buttom half of the last page of each chapter. You know it's there to draw attention.Get over it.If you're planning to tell the tale you wouldn't use the next episode preview unless you want to stop there. Just ignore it until you want to do so. That is all. 

 

 

Surely,if drawing no attention to a manga and having completely normal development with no cliffhanger must have won so well that most comics books have succeeded in doing so..RIGHT?

(example )

18-19 pages every chapter/scene.

200 +/-5 pages every book. 

NO exceptions.

Exactly the same number of chapters in each volume.with extras(special things) or not. 

That's obviously how most books/novel in series are like. (sarcasm)

 

MOST normal people would forgive the manga for the last part of each section since it's to draws attention.You went and complain about it as if each chapter/book is exactly in the format the author want.

 

Each volume is a  just a compilation of scenes not a chapter in a book. Accept it.

 

. 

PS:Li Xin became a great general on the first volume of the manga. I don't even know why you're thinking most of the pages are cliffhanger worthy of tension grabbing.Since we know he's gonna survive. The cliffhangers are for everyone else. That changes a lot of things. 

 

Cliffhanger-2 types.

1.The one I use- Tension rising cliffhanger-Shin is on the move against an enemy.When suddenly he units(kyonkai+himself) got divided with Sousi and his other lieutenant.The later is slowly falling apart.This is a cliff hanger. Is Sousi gonna die?

 

Pang Nuan vs Ouki?Who will survived?Both?(cliche)Ouki?(the obi wan fall so soon)Pang Nuan?(a son appears to avenge him?)

So many branching paths. 

 

2.Loosest term Cliffhanger-Shin got slash in the face.(we know he survive from chapter 1) No tension,no fear expected. He''ll win or survive. Shin is about to make his move and tell his force to move out. Shin fell down a hill.He obviously survived. 

 

Number 2 are all cliffhangers,but none of us feel anything or even desire to say 'and then' like a  fool from your example. 

 

Number 1-are the one I myself would take as 'real' or important cliffhangers.The one that MIGHT deserved 'the to be continued' . 

 

You obviously went for number 1 to prove your point. RIGHT?!?!Of course not. 

 

 

If you want to debate this.Look for 'Terolus on mangafox'.Hell just go to comic book section or narutoforums or other forums and complain about the same thing here.(bleach/naruto/ippo/Toriko)Good luck not getting attack for stupid.Do you sincerely think no one done studies on the effect of 'exaggeration in getting others attention?Where is your alternative?Why don't you think someone went straight for that scenario?Considering comic/manga probably derived from books?

 

You're a minority if you think that most 'teenagers/people' just want a calm story throughout with no cliffhangers and just telling a tale.

 

You're a minority if you think most people are stupid enough to weave it without ignoring the last part of each chapter until they want to stop. 

 

You're a minority if you think you red herring tactic is gonna work every where you go.I'm not a fool that hadn't suffered through that tactic when I was younger than two hands.(9 and younger) 

 

Edit:Vagabond was used already and was an invincible protagonist.(We know he won already and his state of mind as well)(Invincible protagonist tend to be more about themes)

 

Aku no hana-Failed the WAR requirement. 

I bet Mooch can argue that it has cliffhangers. (chapter 38-39 example) (Type 2) 

 

Not trying to offend you,but just stating things to prove how hard it's to find an example. 

 

 

Purple I don't hate you for thinking the way you do.I just think you're horribly naive if you think you can assassinate nearly everyone to accomplish your goals.I also want to tell you that at least the King is 'trying' when he wants to unite the land. I sincerely believe it's better then going your route,but whatever. Take care. 

 

Mooch-you're the first one to make me feel true rage in my entire short life.(1x) Congratulation.In a way thank you,but not really. 

 

Since you're screwing with this forum page anyways and I'm leaving. ( I suggest you make a 'general debate against cliffhangers if you want to see how strong your point is instead of Kingdom when this is not that different from other manga)

 

 

LI XIN- Lost 200,000 soldiers and his defeated was deemed the GREATEST SETBACK in the entire unification war for QIN. LI XIN was betrayed by Lord...(strongest of 4 pillars) and got attacked by the ancestor of Xiang (Yu)(debated to be stronger than real life Lu Bu in feats) in a united surprise attack. 

No Tension aye?

The King lost his mind and killed thousands of intellectuals to prevent spread of different ideas?Deemed a tyrant? 

 

Yep,everything is gonna get a fairy tale(comparatively) ending like Vagabond.

Edited by Ter, 12 September 2013 - 10:25 PM.

[mencretnas]

Its like your opinion is fact moloch, protip: it is not

 

truepurple, you are agreeing with 2/3 of my opinion then, so why looking for something that clearly not presentable in this manga? its like saying your salad doesn't taste like fried rice, well duh

 

If you want a literary approach on manga media, go look Vagabond or Aku no Hana, where fluidity and thought provoking themes are more prevalent

Edited by mencretnas, 12 September 2013 - 05:51 PM.

[truepurple]

Mencretnas, they could keep Kingdom pretty much the same, yet let it be less predictable, and it would improve the work.

[Moloch]

Errr, sorry to be so blunt about this, Ter, but I don’t get what you’re saying. Can you get a native speaker to look over this post together with you and turn this into a comprehensible argument? Otherwise I’m afraid I can’t really reply to it when I don’t understand what you are trying to convey

I agree Moloch. Cliffhangers tend to to be bad, though not always.

Uh, yeah, that’s why I wrote “almost alyways”.

Its like your opinion is fact moloch, protip: it is not

Weeell, it’s academic consensus which is good enough for me ^-^

[truepurple]

Back to the comic directly, seems like Shin has been taught some basic chi breathing magic by the assassin girl.

[Ter]

Simple. 
Purple thinks assassination and negotiation is the best method to unite the land or at land keep it in peace and make the people lives better.

(do you agree with this?)

I point out that assassination is not possible for the King faction and that him using a method from Akane ga kiru is not wise unless he understands the difference between that world and our world.(one of which is there's no single evil empire) 

 

I also point out a band of states/dynasty (apparently not a nation) already tried peace talk and succeeded 2 times in the past.It was still nearly as bad as warring times and a lot worse then Qin united. 

 

You went off tangent and talked about how the term nations or something akin to that didn't appear until Napoleon don't even know if you're right about this.

Even if you are right, you're diverting the entire conversation over terminology when you obviously know I'm talking about the states.Zhao,Qi, ect.(over hundreds in the past) 

 

Consensus that cliffhangers are bad for writing?

I call you on it.Can you show the evidence for this consensus?

Even if you did...

Is the consensus connecting to manga/comics?

Is there statistic showing that most teenagers don't like cliffhangers or at least indifferent to it?

So Kingdom can remove cliffhangers?(you can get the author the bottom third of each section)

 

Purple

He didn't learn any breathing technique from her.A translator personally summarize the raw and it didn't show learning anything other some tactics to fight speedy opponents and sword fighting tips in general. If he did he would be owning Renpa.

 

Final  LI XIN and LI MU are related in history.

 

6 times...well friday 13th afterall. I hate myself for responding and breaking my words. 

Edited by Ter, 13 September 2013 - 08:19 AM.

[truepurple]

Ter, not only are you going off on a tangent, you are contributing things to me, that I didn't type.  And it focuses over all the wrong things too, plus using some funky logic. I'm not going to even bother to reply to most of it, at least not now. 

 

But regarding the breathing techniques.

• The title of the chapter is "Shin, In One Breath" and there is no apparent reason for this title other then what I said. The chi magic uses breathing, this has been mentioned a number of times before. She is limited in her fighting duration because her breath is limited. I wonder even if perhaps they do something almost like holding their breath to focus chi or something the way it is described.

 

• Shin has a especially heavy blow that took both allie and foe by surprise. The first one literally knocking his opponent notably back and nearly caused his horse to fall over. Sword Technic alone wouldn't make sense for his blow to be abnormally heavy. Maybe she just she taught him a sword technique from chi magic, without teaching him something of the breath technique itself, but I really doubt that, it just doesn't fit. I imagine most of her techniques are based on her chi magic anyway. She was confident in letting Shin fight Reniko without her because of her teachings.

 

• But he can not use it regularly, not all his blows are heavy. This is because Shin just learned the very basic of the chi magic. Not became a real chi magic master like her. So  him not "owning" Reniko is not proof against what I am saying. Learning the very basic doesn't make him suddenly a master. And we don't even know if she could "own" Reniko herself.

Edited by truepurple, 13 September 2013 - 09:29 AM.