76 replies to this topic

[shard2323]

I guess we have definition for 'trivialize' because the number of killing that were done by the 'good side' can be count on one hand.

You're wrong by saying that 'Naruto' is completly manichaeist. Sasuke is the perfect counter example, he is considered as being a 'bad' person, an outlaw, but Naruto still does not considered him as someone bad even though he is going against his own set of principles.

Look. Even if ONE murder was trivialized his point is still valid. We should just shower Panpan with praise, bit our tongues, and jump him as he starts to take a shower. Agreed?

Maybe is it because of my nature, and the fact that I was thaught and was very interested by philosophy at an early age. But I recall myself thinking, questionning myself, after an event in the story, when I was younger and it happened multiple times.

As was I; which is why I took to calling Naruto "drool" and avoiding it at every turn. Actually, when I read it later, it wasn't horrid--I was just being a pretentious pre-teen. Still, I got hooked on manga like Blame!, Death Note, Elfen Lied, etc. Regardless, Barney can make you question society if you let it. That doesn't mean a show for toddlers is inherently philosophical though--or is even trying to make a philosophical point. As humans, we tend to simply over analyze things.

Edited by shard2323, 23 December 2012 - 02:39 AM.

[ToothlessShark]

Look. Even if ONE murder was trivialized his point is still valid. We should just shower Panpan with praise, bit our tongues, and jump him as he starts to take a shower. Agreed?




As was I; which is why I took to calling Naruto "drool" and avoiding it at every turn. Actually, when I read it later, it wasn't horrid--I was just being a pretentious pre-teen. Still, I got hooked on manga like Blame!, Death Note, Elfen Lied, etc. Regardless, Barney can make you question society if you let it. That doesn't mean a show for toddlers is inherently philosophical though--or is even trying to make a philosophical point. As humans, we tend to simply over analyze things.

I wasn't trying to make Naruto look like a philosophical work, or saying that author try to make some kind of philosophical point. I was just pointing that such violence and morality as portrayed inside the manga could be regard as those inside the Illiad and that there is nothing cry about.

Also, I still think that it is a bit exagerated to try to go that far anlysing a manga which really is not meant to be taken seriously, though exceptions exist.

But, hey, every one has his own opinion.

Edited by ToothlessShark, 23 December 2012 - 02:47 AM.

[shard2323]

Also, I still think that it is a bit exagerated to try to go that far anlysing a manga which really is not meant to be taken seriously, though exception exist.

I agree. Utterly.

So I propose a question to the thread creator:

What practical value does this discussion have? So what if Naruto trivializes murder? Can you prove it has an impact on the youth who watch it, or do you simply have the need to go for lulz here?

[Leptailurus Serval]

I guess we have definition for 'trivialize' because the number of killing that were done by the 'good side' can be count on one hand.

Numbers has never been part of my argument nor does they undermine the significance of death.
The fact of the matter is; Naruto and his ilks killed and continue to kills with impunity.
They are children with blood on their hands and delusional ideology brainwashed into them.

You're wrong by saying that 'Naruto' is completly manichaeist. Sasuke is the perfect counter example, he is considered as being a 'bad' person, an outlaw, but Naruto still does not considered him as someone bad even though he is going against his own set of principles.

Manichaeist? Please, I doubt the blockhead Naruto even know the meaning of the word.
I've said it repeatedly in this thread, Naruto is a delusional chauvinist.
His black and white world view is within the context of his brand of chauvinism.

To him friendship comes first and at the cost of other people's lives.
Also, this notion of good guy and bad guy is rather absurd to be honest.
For me, these children (including Sasuke) are delusional and brainwashed by the system of which they are in.

It is then only appropriate that the Kage of each village be tried as war criminals if we transpose Narutoverse into reality.

Edited by Agkistrodon rhodostoma, 23 December 2012 - 03:13 AM.

[ToothlessShark]

Numbers has never been part of my argument nor does it undermine the significant of death.
The fact of the matter is; Naruto and his ilks killed and continue to kills with impunity.
They are children with blood on their hands and delusional ideology brainwashed into them.

Proof?

Manichaeist? Please, I doubt the blockhead Naruto even know the meaning of the word.
I've said it repeatedly in this thread, Naruto is a delusional chauvinist.
His black and white world view is within the context of his brand of chauvinism.

To him friendship comes first and at the cost of other people's lives.
Also, this notion of good guy and bad guy is rather absurd to be honest.
For me, these children (including Sasuke) are delusional and brainwashed by the system of which they are in.

It is then only appropriate that the Kage of each village be tried as war criminals if we transpose Narutoverse into reality.

Naruto a chauvinist? I don't see him that way and furthermore the latest development in the story are going against what you're advancing.

You seem also to be very keen on using the word "brainwash". One may argue that any cultural has his fondation on brainwashing the younger generation into thinking the same way that older generations, be it good or bad. You can't accused them of brainwashing only because they have a different set of principles.

It is then only appropriate that the Kage of each village be tried as war criminals if we transpose Narutoverse into reality.

This is a perfect example of imaginative resistance. You have a hard time imagining an other kind of morality than yours. I'm not saying that it is a bad, actually many philosophers think it to be quite an healthy reaction. You should not and I don't think that any of 'Naruto' readers does, export what you read in 'Naruto'.

Edited by ToothlessShark, 23 December 2012 - 03:22 AM.

[Leptailurus Serval]

Proof?

Lets start with this one first.
What is the point of being a ninja?
Is it to become a dancer at wedding parties?

[ToothlessShark]

Lets start with this one first.
What is the point of being a ninja?
Is it to become a dancer at wedding parties?

In Naruto's world, the ninjas are here to help and protect the village.

[Leptailurus Serval]

In Naruto's world, the ninjas are here to help and protect the village.

And what does that entails?
The real world equivalent would be the military.
But of course, what you said is only partially true.
The ninjas/military also promote and protect the village's interests.
Villages here being synonymous with states.
So they are not only defensive, but also offensive.

[ToothlessShark]

And what does that entails?
The real world equivalent would be the military.
But of course, what you said is only partially true.
The ninjas/military also promote and protect the village's interests.
Villages here being synonymous with states.
So they are not only defensive, but also offensive.

For the first part of Naruto, that mean for young people of the age of 12-13 the correct comparaison would be the scout.

I think that we're both trenched in our position and not ready to agree with the other. We should stop here, this conversation is leading to nowhere.

Thanks for giving us your opinion on the matter, have a nice day.

[Leptailurus Serval]

For the first part of Naruto, that mean for young people of the age of 12-13 the correct comparaison would be the scout.

Involving children in dangerous trainings and operations to prepare them as child soldiers constitute a war crime.
In the case of Naruto and his ilks, even at young ages, they are already exposed to deadly situation, often involving death.

I think that we're both trenched in our position and not ready to agree with the other. We should stop here, this conversation is leading to nowhere.

Thanks for giving us your opinion on the matter, have a nice day.

Sorry, you're mistaking me here.
I don't dwell in baseless empty opinion since I am well versed in international humanitarian laws.

[Algis]

ANYWHO—who are you to make a point about god, satan, etc.? Biblical references from a person who—by definition—worships alternative religious views (Occultism) are…often views as humorous. Not that they are, but you have to understand how that looks.

Satanic, as in, as it relates to Satan, says nothing about inversion. Evil does not equal “Inversion,” it equals evil. What you assert is that, if I show you a picture of an arrow pointing up and say it’s pointing down, I am under Satan’s influence? Or simply because Panpan disagrees with you, he is a Satanist?

In the occidental world, Christians and Muslims represent the great majority of the population, so it is normal to use the Bible (and the Coran when it says the same thing) as common references, even for atheists. When I speak about Satan, I refer to the Satan of the Bible/Coran, not the Satan of LaVeyan or someone else.

When I use the word satanic (or even satanist) I refer to the common Satan everybody knows, not a special cult. Most of people, understand satanism as a preference for the values of Satan rather than those of God, and so it an inversion of the values.

Your funny example with the arrow pointing up or down has nothing to do with morals values. But, if you say that killing innocents is good, or the strong have the right to abuse the weak, or lying is generally better than saying the truth, …, you are preferring values that are the exact opposite of what morals (and religions, christianism and islam) consider as good, and so you are a satanic. Satan being the exact opposite of God. I use this term as a common term, comprehensible for everyone, in comparison with morals and the common religions. I never thought or intended to say that ''Panpan'' worships Satan as a Divinity, doing human sacrifices and such.

I hope you understand because I really don't know how to make it more simple.


And last thing, occultism is the study of the occult. Occult means what is hidden to the naked eye, aka the ''spiritual world''. Occultism is about yoga, meditation, breathing techniques, vibrating runes, activating/reprogramming the DNA, learning special abilities such as clairvoyance, clairaudience, astral projection, …, tarot, feng shui, preparing altars, communicating with astral entities, etc, etc, etc. Yoga, breathing techniques and meditation are the basis of occultism. It is not a religion and you don't need to believe in anything to learn and/or practice one or many of these things.

[ToothlessShark]

Involving children in dangerous trainings and operations to prepare them as child soldiers constitute a war crime.
In the case of Naruto and his ilks, even at young ages, they are already exposed to deadly situation, often involving death.

Naruto's case was exceptional.

Sorry, you're mistaking me here.
I don't dwell in baseless empty opinion since I am well versed in international humanitarian laws.

I don't doubt that.

But it's seems that we're disagreeing over the fact of exporting Naruto to real life.

...

Please don't deviate the topic to another subject.

[Leptailurus Serval]

Naruto's case was exceptional.

Being exceptional doesn't make it excusable.
Ironically, such excuses also parallel the real world.
Remember the invasion of Iraq? The war is illegal by the sheer definition.

I don't doubt that.

But it's seems that we're disagreeing over the fact of exporting Naruto to real life.

Enter our factual exhibit here: Algis.
Though I cannot provide actual number, but it is safe to say that there are many children out there who viewed Naruto the way Algis viewed it.
You only need to read his posts to see how the Narutoverse morality are being internalized by him.
Very similar to religion.

Edited by Agkistrodon rhodostoma, 23 December 2012 - 04:03 AM.

[Algis]

Please don't deviate the topic to another subject.

lol, you know, the thread is lost for a long time now The guy is not here to debate, he is here to force his demagogy

[shard2323]

In the occidental world, Christians and...

This is off topic. Completely. Would you like me to send my reply via VMs, PMs, or would you prefer to make another thread?

A note on Algis: He likes Naruto. He's defending it. Not much to be said, Panpan.

[Algis]

[/color]

This is off topic. Completely. Would you like me to send my reply via VMs, PMs, or would you prefer to make another thread?

A note on Algis: He likes Naruto. He's defending it. Not much to be said, Panpan.

Send me your reply via PM if you want.

About Naruto, I liked the first season and even if it doesn't interest me anymore, I still have a good memory of the early chapters.
What annoyed me since the beginning of this thread was the statement that Naruto is a manga that promotes trivializition of killing and death, witch is absolutely false. And then bringing African child soliders, saying they were dangerous chauvinists. And as a conclusion, the Konoha village members should be considered as war criminals if they were in our world, a world that is completely different, with totally different set of principles. The guy was happy with this thesis and didn't want to hear anything. Well, if that makes him happy ...

Edited by Algis, 23 December 2012 - 04:38 AM.

[thearux]

I love you Kaze, this thread, missed this.