Dead Dead Demon's Dededededestruction

How about Dictatorships or a Socialist government? Or to a certain extent open parlamentarism?

i was expecting this. you'll notice that i specifically use the words, "protect/control." i don't see anything wrong in my statement even if you take those types of governments as examples. what do you imagine dictatorships can do without People? they understand the need for People, specifically agents that will serve them. that is why they lavish huge benefits on those who follow loyally and are ruthless to those who dissent.

i'm curious as to what parts you think socialism or any other government types can do without. whether my statement is delusional or not, is up to you to prove.

you might be surprised that things like universals exist. mathematics may be taught one country to the next, but it has no cultural difference when it comes to the results/laws that are derived from it. human culture is varied, true. however, the basic principles of government are a universal:

 

there are 3 things that a government must protect/control or else it ceases to be a government: Power, Property, People. Power is what gives the government the ability to act, and is probably the most important, it usually refers to the leaders and wealth (physical and intellectual) that allow for actions to be taken/organized. Property is a plane of existence of which the Power controls everything within a boundary. it has almost exclusively meant physical land, but i feel that we are on the cusp upon which that may not be a hard limitation. it is within this boundary that Power manifests action. People refers to subjects that bend to the will of the Power and act as agents to facilitate action within the Property. it is the role of the government to protect/control these things or else it is destroyed. that is a universal.

 

relating to the story, the appearance of the UFO disrupts Power, Property and People. it defies the control of the airspace, causing airplane(s?) to crash and various other incidents that leave people dead, such as Kadode's father(assumed dead). i don't know where you live, but if your government's attitude is different from what is depicted in the second chapter, your government is either impotent and on the verge of failure or so far advanced in technology that the deaths of it's people is insignificant and its land is of no value. no effective government would allow disruption of the 3 principle foundations.

>there are 3 things that a government must protect/control or else it ceases to be a government: Power, Property, People.

How about Dictatorships or a Socialist government? Or to a certain extent open parlamentarism?

Those values can be subjective in many amounts of ways. Nothing politically related is set in stone and correlating politics to Mathematics in terms of objectivity is downright delusional.

However, you'll have to understand that not every country (and its people, by proxy) might value things the same way whatever yours does. 

you might be surprised that things like universals exist. mathematics may be taught one country to the next, but it has no cultural difference when it comes to the results/laws that are derived from it. human culture is varied, true. however, the basic principles of government are a universal:

there are 3 things that a government must protect/control or else it ceases to be a government: Power, Property, People. Power is what gives the government the ability to act, and is probably the most important, it usually refers to the leaders and wealth (physical and intellectual) that allow for actions to be taken/organized. Property is a plane of existence of which the Power controls everything within a boundary. it has almost exclusively meant physical land, but i feel that we are on the cusp upon which that may not be a hard limitation. it is within this boundary that Power manifests action. People refers to subjects that bend to the will of the Power and act as agents to facilitate action within the Property. it is the role of the government to protect/control these things or else it is destroyed. that is a universal.

relating to the story, the appearance of the UFO disrupts Power, Property and People. it defies the control of the airspace, causing airplane(s?) to crash and various other incidents that leave people dead, such as Kadode's father(assumed dead). i don't know where you live, but if your government's attitude is different from what is depicted in the second chapter, your government is either impotent and on the verge of failure or so far advanced in technology that the deaths of it's people is insignificant and its land is of no value. no effective government would allow disruption of the 3 principle foundations.

it won't doom earth, just the humans that live on it.

Other fauna probably too, but yes, nice correction.

 Therefore, peaceful or not, the contact will doom the Earth.

it won't doom earth, just the humans that live on it.

I want the pacifistic commenters to consider the fact that aliens will bear alien bacterias and viruses in them most likely. In one way or another. Therefore, peaceful or not, the contact will doom the Earth. Heck, even blasting the ship would do that, because it'd fall into the waters and that would contaminate them. The Earth is endangered from the moment of appearance of alien ship in the athmosphere, it's already too late at that point.

And if you think that danger is posed as weapons and guns, uh...what about mind posession? Extreme poisonousness? Anything you can imagine can be a normal thing for an alien lifeform. They might not imagine themselves that they're dangerous. Or they might plan it all along. Even humans can be two-faced as heck, so why aliens can't?

i'm taking this from the point of view of real life. most of what i've seen is people who want a 100% completion of the friendship route as they glance at Gamefaqs or something. i understand that the manga is supposed to be dramatically ironic (the audience knows more than the characters on stage) but there is no realistic way to say that if this UFO showed up in my city, it wouldn't be treated the same way, given the same conditions. yes, we are supposed to not want to kill the cute invaders, i get that. i wouldn't be eager to kill them, knowing what i know as a reader. but in reality it would be a duty.

So, the manga is unrealistic because of how government reacts to an unknown entity. If this is what you've been trying to assert, then fair enough. However, you'll have to understand that not every country (and its people, by proxy) might value things the same way whatever yours does. You can think the contrary and say that [concept you value] is only common sense, but you'd be surprised to know that other cultures might not rate it as highly, or may not even care about it at all. And call me insane, sure, but this can include things like privacy and national security.

You are reasoning under the assumption that the context as shown in reality will be exactly how it is in the manga (which may or may not be, considering this is Asano Inio). It's fine if you're predisposed to conclusions based on past knowledge (that's a cognitive trait that aids survival), 

i'm taking this from the point of view of real life. most of what i've seen is people who want a 100% completion of the friendship route as they glance at Gamefaqs or something. i understand that the manga is supposed to be dramatically ironic (the audience knows more than the characters on stage) but there is no realistic way to say that if this UFO showed up in my city, it wouldn't be treated the same way, given the same conditions. yes, we are supposed to not want to kill the cute invaders, i get that. i wouldn't be eager to kill them, knowing what i know as a reader. but in reality it would be a duty.

if you look at history, particularly the colonial eras where the most powerful civilizations went to distant lands, there are incidents where they came into contact with natives who did not know who they were. the indigenous people of those places in Africa, North/Central/South America, Philippines and Pacific Islands ended up being wiped out or enslaved. if you want to call me paranoid or whatever, fine. I just know my history. Plymouth Rock was founded on the good intentions of the Native Americans, and we all know what happened to the natives soon after that. your reasoning is what is based on what ifs and maybes that few people in a position of leadership would listen to in the crucial moments in chapter two.

You are reasoning under the assumption that the context as shown in history will be exactly how it is in the manga (which may or may not be, considering this is Asano Inio). It's fine if you're predisposed to conclusions based on past knowledge (that's a cognitive trait that aids survival), but I think that it can cloud decision making in similar, but still ambiguous situations. Fiction—sci-fi especially—is built on "what ifs", so don't be surprised if things in this story don't unfold like how the history books say they should.

That being said, you're justified to a point. Valuing personal safety and the security of those closest to you is not wrong. All of the characters (main ones or the general public) in the manga don't know all these details about invaders and their intentions the same way the readers do. It's natural to fear what you cannot comprehend (or to try and make it seem like something else). I think it would be hard for some of those people to pay no mind to a giant ominous disc hovering over their country unless it just did nothing for centuries.

 

  Basically you're whole arguement is just "we don't know who or what they are, so let's attack them first" which is really not very logical or sensible. Ofcourse I understand wanting to protect citizens, and I'm not saying that they shouldn't be suspicious or cautious, but if you're just attacking them when they are peaceful then you are killing innocent people, it's not self defense. It's paranoia and murder. And, as I said earlier that could make them turn violent against you in retaliation.

 

if you look at history, particularly the colonial eras where the most powerful civilizations went to distant lands, there are incidents where they came into contact with natives who did not know who they were. the indigenous people of those places in Africa, North/Central/South America, Philippines and Pacific Islands ended up being wiped out or enslaved. if you want to call me paranoid or whatever, fine. I just know my history. Plymouth Rock was founded on the good intentions of the Native Americans, and we all know what happened to the natives soon after that. your reasoning is what is based on what ifs and maybes that few people in a position of leadership would listen to in the crucial moments in chapter two.

Spoiler

so, to put this into perspective, they park a city sized space ship over the city. and when i say, "over the city," it's probably less than a kilometer above the highest building. way too close for comfort. that's like two strangers in your small apartment, five strangers in your house. if you come home to that, you assume they're hostile. what normal, thinking governments/organizations do is send a small delegation via a small craft, which we know they have/had in abundance, to the leaders of another government/organization, so as to not alarm everyone.

as far as "weapons or guns they were showing off," if you looked at the invader ship in chapter two, would you know what part of the ship was a weapon or not? i was quite sure the parts sticking out the bottom could be some sort of weapon, but then again i'm no expert on alien weaponry. those who had a duty to protect the citizens probably weren't either and did not want to wait until people died or worse in order to act.

i have no desire to monopolize the comments section, it is probably a good idea to bring this to a forum topic

I'm probably not going to post on this anymore cause I think we might end up just going round in circles, but kind of like Technopolis said it's really interesting to see people actually agreeing with/debating the different povs brought up in the manga- shows what a good writer Asano is, that he's actually written such realistic opinions/reactions to such a surreal situation.

D:

okay okay why so many uploads on the same chapter (ch. 31) why? its getting a lil annoying now

Aside from the politics, the aliens are way too goddamn cute for their own good. Tubby little fat things waddling around with their big diver suit helmets. Too cute for this world. 

Everyone commenting against the aliens kinda proves part of the point of the manga right, at no point did anyone see any attack initiated by the aliens yet there's this inherent distrust of others that was borne out of nothing. Similar to the citizenry that wish for all the aliens to be killed, they don't realize that most of the human casualties have been the result of their own hujin efforts. That's not to say the aliens aren't invaders, but they definitely aren't a danger at the moment. True they did appear above Tokyo, but unless they're actively engaging humans it's more akin to a lifeboat washing up on shore that COULD need help. I'm not saying they should be received with open arms but it's clear that the military industrial complex benefits the narrative that they are invaders. That part about the alien serving the motherland may hint at their intents later.

We have no idea what they did.  The story started in the middle, with the aliens already having been around for years.  It has been made pretty clear that whatever happened when they first arrived, the average citizen almost certainly doesn't know what.  They may have made ineffective attempts to communicate, they may have made attempts to communicate which worked perfectly but were ignored, they may not have attempted to communicate at all and the peon-level aliens have as much wool being pulled over their eyes as the average human.  

 

 

Presuming for a moment that the mode of their arrival was somehow stupid and their communication attempts ineffective or nonexistent, I still don't see why that makes it OK to just kill them.  That's the logic of Islamic Jihadists--the US is in the Middle East's face so it's OK to kill any and all Americans.

Hahaha! None so blind as the one who thinks his point of view, and his alone, is neutral and objective.  It is impossible to have an impersonal position on an issue involving ethics, politics and so on.

But they didn't approach in aggressive manner, or with a "show of force". Were there any obvious guns or weapons on display on the ships? No there wasn't. If you think of the spaceships as vehicles, then they are no different from a car or a bus. You were comparing it earlier to someone breaking into your house, but I think the situation is more like a bunch of people parking their cars outside your house- which would be a bit weird and and maybe suspicious, but surely wouldn't actually make you reach for your shotgun would it? Because the aliens are just hanging out in the sky, they haven't actually technically "invaded" at all, have they? Calling their appearance a "show of force" is very subjective, you're basically only basing this on the fact that there are lots of them and that they're "foreign", which is really not much basis at all.

i have no desire to monopolize the comments section, it is probably a good idea to bring this to a forum topic

PURGE THE XENO.

i don't understand where this whole "the invaders are trying to communicate" idea came about. no one was aware of them up until they had a city sized ship blotting out the sun above the city. are they so inept that the extent of their "communication" is  to simply blare out their language the instant they arrive, hoping someone understands them? while i don't think the whole story has been revealed, i don't think there is much to support the idea that the invaders tried communications first or that communication was their main intent.

We have no idea what they did.  The story started in the middle, with the aliens already having been around for years.  It has been made pretty clear that whatever happened when they first arrived, the average citizen almost certainly doesn't know what.  They may have made ineffective attempts to communicate, they may have made attempts to communicate which worked perfectly but were ignored, they may not have attempted to communicate at all and the peon-level aliens have as much wool being pulled over their eyes as the average human.  That one cynical alien at one point said "We were set up" but it's totally unclear what he means--who was set up by whom in what way.  You seem to be filling stuff in to suit your desire for it to be OK to do them all in. 

All we know for sure is

1.  They didn't attack.

2.  The Japanese government did.

3.  They didn't retaliate.

4.  The Japanese government (and now some vigilantes) kept on attacking.

5.  In the process, the Japanese government has in fact done quite a bit of damage to its own citizens, while the aliens have not.

Presuming for a moment that the mode of their arrival was somehow stupid and their communication attempts ineffective or nonexistent, I still don't see why that makes it OK to just kill them.  That's the logic of Islamic Jihadists--the US is in the Middle East's face so it's OK to kill any and all Americans.

please, let's not bring your personal issues into this.

Hahaha! None so blind as the one who thinks his point of view, and his alone, is neutral and objective.  It is impossible to have an impersonal position on an issue involving ethics, politics and so on.
My personal and political issues are in this, of course. Certainly so are yours--you seem desperate to believe that it's OK to kill outsiders, and any excuse, any doubt or fear, is good enough to justify mass murder.  That is very much a personal and political position and an expression of values; if you imagine it's somehow a matter of pure logic, you are dreaming in technicolor.

Also, as for the communication attempts by humans to aliens irl that you were talking about earlier, these haven't been mentioned in the manga so maybe we can assume those don't exist in their universe? I think you're over-thinking it there. Also, in the most recent chapter

Spoiler

one of the invaders says "they didn't lsiten to us", right?

 
Also, what you said about their appearance-

Spoiler

it's not so much the cuteness (although yes they are very cute little designs), it's more that physically, one-on-one, they don't seem to stand a chance against humans especially with guns and weapons. In that chapter where we first see the Invaders, one of the soldiers even says something about how harmless they are!

when someone says, "i came here to die for the motherland," there is a strong purpose behind that person. if you have a hardline peaceful intent, i doubt that they would have any problem getting the attention of humanity in a non "invasion-y" way. what makes more sense to me is that they made a show of force, and got what was coming for them and they underestimated how powerful the opponent was. people are just saying "aww, these guys are so cute! they don't deserve to be treated like invaders!" just based on their appearance, but the fact remains that they are invaders based on their actions. actions are more important than appearances. it's easy to blame the people who chose to attack because the enemies are portrayed as cute, but it is the right reaction to being threatened. i hope everyone is smart enough to not approach any unknown animal/people in the aggressive manner that the aliens did and not expect some sort of backlash.

 

But they didn't approach in aggressive manner, or with a "show of force". Were there any obvious guns or weapons on display on the ships? No there wasn't. If you think of the spaceships as vehicles, then they are no different from a car or a bus. You were comparing it earlier to someone breaking into your house, but I think the situation is more like a bunch of people parking their cars outside your house- which would be a bit weird and and maybe suspicious, but surely wouldn't actually make you reach for your shotgun would it? Because the aliens are just hanging out in the sky, they haven't actually technically "invaded" at all, have they? Calling their appearance a "show of force" is very subjective, you're basically only basing this on the fact that there are lots of them and that they're "foreign", which is really not much basis at all.

Also, as for the communication attempts by humans to aliens irl that you were talking about earlier, these haven't been mentioned in the manga so maybe we can assume those don't exist in their universe? I think you're over-thinking it there. Also, in the most recent chapter

Also, what you said about their appearance-

subete ga f ni naru (manga) is illustrated by ASADA Torao (not being a jerk with caps https://www.mangaupdates.com/authors.html?id=2081)but i do agree ddd would be hard to animate

You're right about the manga, but the characters for the anime were indeed designed by Asano.

There are people right now volunteering and trying to get put on a one way trip to Mars with no return ticket, guaranteeing their death, just so they can help explore the universe for the sake of their fellow man and "motherland." The aliens could be doing the same thing, attempting to communicate with humans for the sake of their home even if it means their death. 

i don't understand where this whole "the invaders are trying to communicate" idea came about. no one was aware of them up until they had a city sized ship blotting out the sun above the city. are they so inept that the extent of their "communication" is  to simply blare out their language the instant they arrive, hoping someone understands them? while i don't think the whole story has been revealed, i don't think there is much to support the idea that the invaders tried communications first or that communication was their main intent.

when someone says, "i came here to die for the motherland," there is a strong purpose behind that person. if you have a hardline peaceful intent, i doubt that they would have any problem getting the attention of humanity in a non "invasion-y" way

Dying for your motherland doesn't have to mean attacking or trying to invade. There are several examples of peaceful protest which ended in public suicide to make a point, or people putting their life on the line to help progress medical or technological advancements. There are people right now volunteering and trying to get put on a one way trip to Mars with no return ticket, guaranteeing their death, just so they can help explore the universe for the sake of their fellow man and "motherland." The aliens could be doing the same thing, attempting to communicate with humans for the sake of their home even if it means their death. 

"They talked about fighting, goes to show they're not really peaceful"!!!  Really, WTF?!

when someone says, "i came here to die for the motherland," there is a strong purpose behind that person. if you have a hardline peaceful intent, i doubt that they would have any problem getting the attention of humanity in a non "invasion-y" way. what makes more sense to me is that they made a show of force, and got what was coming for them and they underestimated how powerful the opponent was. people are just saying "aww, these guys are so cute! they don't deserve to be treated like invaders!" just based on their appearance, but the fact remains that they are invaders based on their actions. actions are more important than appearances. it's easy to blame the people who chose to attack because the enemies are portrayed as cute, but it is the right reaction to being threatened. i hope everyone is smart enough to not approach any unknown animal/people in the aggressive manner that the aliens did and not expect some sort of backlash.

 

 

I know that seeing the one doing the killing as the violent one is a rather old fashioned notion, especially in the modern United States where there is an amazing amount of energy devoted to the idea that you can slaughter people and still be the peaceful one as long as (various excuses), but I still think there's something to the concept of actual killers bearing some responsibility for breaking the peace.

please, let's not bring your personal issues into this.